The Abortion Thread

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PizzaSnake
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by PizzaSnake »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:04 am It seems dumb to put health info into apps in general. I don’t support the behavior of allowing law enforcement to check these things one bit but damn people are getting lazy. This isn’t a health benefit, I seriously doubt the cost and consequences of using a app collectively is a net health positive when all the outcomes happen over doing it manually. Just a overfunded VC backed platform for the sake of having a women’s health app without adding net value (net versus the costs and risks associated with sticking personal health information on an app-I’ve read your on the mental telehealth ones and the frigging tech companies not the therapist control your information and they record the sessions!)
In order to reap the benefits of "modern" medicine and realize cost savings and improved outcomes of care there needs to be near universal "sharing" of data. And not just a little, all of it, from birth and before, to include the particulars of gestational environment. No data; don't expect to see marked improvement.

Now, people aren't completely stupid and rightly fear the mis-use of said data. So they won't share. Sort of amusing to watch the clever ingenuity of humanity constrained by its base instincts. Why do humans fcuk each other over? Because they can and it's their nature to do so. If Kant had a scorpion doppelganger....
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
PizzaSnake
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by PizzaSnake »

Quite a shift for Spain. Franco to this in less than a half-century.

"Spain's parliament has given final approval to a law allowing people over 16 to change their legally-recognised gender without medical evaluation.

It passed with 191 votes in favour and 60 against, the final step in an extensive debate.

The process to change gender on documents could in theory now take around three to four months.

Another law passed on Thursday includes paid menstrual leave for women suffering severe period pain."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64666356

Maybe we just have to "go through some things" in order to make changes necessary for equality and fairplay?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64666356
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
jhu72
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by jhu72 »

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Farfromgeneva
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Farfromgeneva »

The law is bogus but we know It was interpreted by professional liability insurers and their attorneys.

As the Washington Post noted, it’s unclear how doctors applied the new law to their situation, and multiple requests for comment for their story went unanswered.
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jhu72
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by jhu72 »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:04 am
The law is bogus but we know It was interpreted by professional liability insurers and their attorneys.

As the Washington Post noted, it’s unclear how doctors applied the new law to their situation, and multiple requests for comment for their story went unanswered.
... totally predictable. The anti-abortionist count on this kind of behavior. The family will have to shop for a doctor who is not afraid of consequences. I would suggest a Southwest Flight to BWI. Or they could auction off the dead fetus when it dies and is removed. Or just present it as a gift to Ron DeSanctimonious.
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Farfromgeneva »

jhu72 wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:20 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:04 am
The law is bogus but we know It was interpreted by professional liability insurers and their attorneys.

As the Washington Post noted, it’s unclear how doctors applied the new law to their situation, and multiple requests for comment for their story went unanswered.
... totally predictable. The anti-abortionist count on this kind of behavior. The family will have to shop for a doctor who is not afraid of consequences. I would suggest a Southwest Flight to BWI. Or they could auction off the dead fetus when it dies and is removed. Or just present it as a gift to Ron DeSanctimonious.
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Brooklyn
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Brooklyn »

It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Jumbo
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Jumbo »

Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
As if there isn’t left wing hypocrisy.
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Brooklyn
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Brooklyn »

Jumbo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:21 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
As if there isn’t left wing hypocrisy.

LOL. Do remember my past posts in which I provided links which proved it was members of the right wing RepubliCON party that financed Margaret Sanger. And don't forget that every day Israel provides free abortions to its citizens which are actually paid for by American taxpayers. Hypocrisy at its worst.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

Charles Francis "Socker" Coe, Esq
Farfromgeneva
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Jumbo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:21 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
As if there isn’t left wing hypocrisy.
So you are supportive of hypocrisy?
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
jhu72
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by jhu72 »

Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
... the Duggars :lol: :lol: :lol: What losers. The perfect republiCONs.
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Farfromgeneva »

jhu72 wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:20 am
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
... the Duggars :lol: :lol: :lol: What losers. The perfect republiCONs.
Think this girl was abused by either her family or a cult, or both. But she was abused. Not to say it’s tied to this but she might need a break from the law is all.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
jhu72
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by jhu72 »

More anti-abortion scumbagery. What leads anti-abortion scumbags to believe they can tell a woman and her family how to manage their private lives? Making their lives more difficult than they need be, just so a scumbag can feel good about his/her pathetic self.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Jumbo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:21 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
As if there isn’t left wing hypocrisy.
I can think of lots of hypocrisy on the left, but do you mean that there are pro-reproductive rights people who decide they don't want to have an abortion, though they have an unplanned pregnancy?

That's the appropriate analogy.
SCLaxAttack
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by SCLaxAttack »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:23 am
Jumbo wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:21 pm
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:42 pm Anti abortion advocate gets abortion:


https://news.yahoo.com/jessa-duggar-see ... 08251.html
https://arktimes.com/news/2023/02/26/he ... n-abortion
https://people.com/health/jessa-duggar- ... abortions/



No surprise given the usual right wing hypocrisy.
As if there isn’t left wing hypocrisy.
I can think of lots of hypocrisy on the left, but do you mean that there are pro-reproductive rights people who decide they don't want to have an abortion, though they have an unplanned pregnancy?

That's the appropriate analogy.
Yep. Pro-choice. Heaven forbid.
PizzaSnake
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by PizzaSnake »

Fcuk Ken Paxton and fcuk Tejas. In the ear.

“Ms. Zurawski and her husband, Josh Zurawski, considered driving 11 hours to New Mexico, but had been told to stay within a 20-minute drive of the hospital in Texas in case she went into labor. She was so worried about being prosecuted, “I didn’t even feel safe Googling options,” Ms. Zurawski said. “I didn’t know what they could and couldn’t search.”

Three days later, her doctors again told the Zurawskis they could not legally abort the fetus because it still had a heartbeat. At home that night, Ms. Zurawski developed a fever, and her husband called the obstetrician to ask to go to the hospital. “We were in this mind-set of, ‘Surely now you’ll accept us,’” Mr. Zurawski said. A nurse told them, he said, that doctors would have to receive approval from the hospital’s ethics board.”

Who the fcuk died and made them dog?

This will not end well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/06/us/t ... -suit.html
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Seacoaster(1)
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... -week-ban/

"Five pregnant women and two doctors filed suit in Texas this week claiming that the state’s six-week abortion ban violates the state constitution’s due process and equal protection guarantees. The complaint asks that, at a minimum, the court declare a woman can obtain an abortion when a physician in good faith finds the patient suffers a condition of complication that “poses a risk of infection, bleeding, or otherwise makes continuing a pregnancy unsafe for the pregnant person; a physical medical condition that is exacerbated by pregnancy” that can’t be effectively treated or where “the fetus is unlikely to survive the pregnancy and sustain life after birth.”

Though Texas’s right-wing courts might well reject the suit based on its reading of the Texas constitution, the bracing and enlightening facts set out in the complaint should be mandatory reading for lawmakers who want to strip women of essential health care. Unlike most suits that are brought by advocacy groups, this action has real, live plaintiffs with heart-wrenching personal stories:

'Amanda was forced to wait until she was septic to receive abortion care, causing one of her fallopian tubes to become permanently closed. When Lauren M. learned one of her twins was not viable, she was forced to travel out of state for the abortion she needed to save her and her other baby’s life, who is due in several weeks. Lauren H. received a devastating fetal diagnosis two weeks after Roe was overturned, and in the chaos that followed, she was forced to travel to Seattle for an abortion. Pregnant again now, Lauren H. fears that Texas is not safe for her or her family. Anna was forced to fly across multiple states after her water broke, risking that she would go into labor or septic shock on the journey. Ashley had to travel out of state to for an abortion to save the life of one of her twins, and afterward, fearful of documenting Ashley’s abortion, her Texas physician instead described her condition as 'vanishing twin syndrome.'

Lest anyone think these are oddball cases, the complaint reminds us that such cases are occurring routinely around the country in states that have banned or severely limited abortion access. The complaint points out that in case after case, the story is essentially the same: Necessary health care is denied; doctors are prevented from treating patients according to long-standing standards of care; and “pervasive fear and uncertainty throughout the medical community regarding the scope of the life and health exceptions have put patients’ lives and physicians’ liberty at grave risk.”

The results, the complaint documents, are devastating to millions of people — not only those who seek to end a pregnancy. Obstetric care is imperiled, for example, as doctors leave states that ban abortion. (Or, in the case of one of the doctors bringing the case, retire because “she felt she could no longer practice medicine the way she was trained and consistent with her ethical obligations as a physician.”)

Moreover, the ban in Texas comes when its maternal mortality rate, already higher than the national average, is rising. Non-Hispanic Black women are twice as likely as White women to die from pregnancy-related causes. If you deny abortion care, more women, and disproportionately Black women, will die.

Contradictory and vague language in the Texas abortion ban “leaves physicians uncertain whether the treatment decisions they make in good faith, based on their medical judgment, will be respected or will be later disputed.” The law created chaos, leading to denial of care or forcing women to show “hemorrhaging” or “active signs of infection before they will be offered abortions.”

The complaint references a study in the New England Journal of Medicine that documents fear, confusion and unnecessarily delayed or denied treatment as physicians struggle to interpret the law in real time. (“Without further explanation, physicians do not know if, for example, ‘a patient with pulmonary hypertension, for whom we cite a 30-to-50% chance of dying with ongoing pregnancy,’ is sufficiently at risk of death or substantial impairment of a major bodily function to permit abortion.”)

The complaint’s 92 pages bombard the reader with a barrage of evidence — not predictions or opinions, but glaring, unarguable facts. Reading through the excruciating details set out in the complaint, several conclusions become indisputable.

The parade of horribles is precisely what women, physicians and advocates warned would result from zealots’ efforts to control women and their medical care. Sadly, lawmakers were either ignorant about medical issues or, worse, simply did not care. They are responsible for the suffering and deaths that result from these bans. There is simply no way to dictate the specifics of medical treatment in a coherent way from a state capital. Lawmakers don’t have the knowledge or foresight to assume the role of doctor. The complaint lays out just a few of the daunting situations the bans create:

'If a pregnant patient is experiencing renal failure, does she have to be on dialysis before a physician may perform an abortion that would otherwise be prohibited by the Ban? If a pregnant patient has a cardiac lesion, does a physician have to wait until she experiences heart failure to intervene? If a pregnant patient has a clogged blood vessel, does a physician have to wait until she experiences chest pain before terminating the pregnancy to prevent pulmonary embolism?'

When judges and lawmakers arrogantly assume the power to dictate who gets what sort of treatment, the results are bound to be calamitous. This is why we have licensed doctors who are held to recognized standards of care — not forced to follow the dictates of ideologues.

The suffering, dehumanization and abuse of women as a result of these bans should shock any decent human being. If any other group of Americans were put through the trauma, uncertainty, risk and expense to obtain appropriate medical care for, say, a heart condition, the howls of protest would be deafening. And yet, it is only pregnant women who are treated as pawns of the state and denied the best care of their doctors. One does not need to make a legal judgment to understand how deeply wrong it is to treat any person in a free society in this way.

Vice President Harris reacted to the suit in a written statement: “The lawsuit includes devastating, first-hand accounts of women’s lives almost lost after they were denied the health care they needed, because of extreme efforts by Republican officials to control women’s bodies.” She added, “Many extremist ‘so-called’ leaders espouse ‘freedom for all,’ while directly attacking the freedom to make one’s own health care decisions.”

Her assessment is spot on — and a reminder that abortion bans are not “pro-life” but barbaric and dangerous."
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Excellent guest column in the Times, about the medical care consequences of Tennessee's Post-Dobbs abortion laws:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/opin ... essee.html

"Before the Supreme Court’s ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, I did not consider myself an abortion provider. Ninety-five percent of my work as a high-risk obstetrician was helping women through complex pregnancies to achieve healthy outcomes for both them and their babies.

But I also served the 5 percent of women who did not think they could get pregnant on dialysis, who develop life-threatening hypertension and need delivery before their babies can survive preterm or who learn halfway through pregnancy that their baby has life-limiting birth defects. Before Dobbs, I did not use the word “abortion” when I talked to these patients about ending pregnancies; I opted instead to talk about terminating or interrupting pregnancies. But I wish I had. I should have conveyed that abortion is health care, can be lifesaving and happens more frequently than many of us acknowledge.

Now that abortion is banned in Tennessee, my fellow physicians and I face a new dilemma of how to operate under extremely restrictive abortion laws while maintaining our ethical responsibilities to provide needed health care. Part of this work requires advocating incremental changes that would have real, tangible effects on patients’ lives and accepting progress, however imperfect.

Other health care professionals in Tennessee and I are trying to reform one of the most restrictive bans in the country: the Human Life Protection Act, which became law in Tennessee after the Dobbs decision. It considers any action in which a live pregnancy is ended, other than in an effort to increase the probability of live birth, a felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Removing a six-week ectopic pregnancy in the fallopian tube or treating inevitable miscarriage is, by definition, a criminal offense.

There are no exceptions to the law. There is only an affirmative defense: If charged or prosecuted, physicians can present evidence that they performed an abortion to prevent death or “serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” For physicians considering their professional reputations, threat of criminal prosecution is terrifying and comes with immense financial costs because most hospitals do not pay for criminal defense.


As a physician practicing in Tennessee, I now must guess whether a prosecutor would charge me with a crime when I help women through those 5 percent situations, contending with the spectrum of risks and imperfect predictions. If a woman’s amniotic membranes rupture at 16 weeks, if she is febrile and bleeding, I think the risk of prosecution is low. If she is medically stable but at high risk for infection and hemorrhage, I am not sure.
I believe the state’s law was intended to be ambiguous and confusing, to make physicians scared to provide abortion care. We’re incentivized to pause, wait, reconsider — actions that can be life threatening. Women with ectopic pregnancies have waited in emergency rooms for hospital lawyers to determine whether an abortion can proceed. We have denied abortion care to women with cancer and other complex medical problems who find out they are pregnant. Women with pregnancies affected by life-limiting fetal anomalies — anencephaly (no skull or brain), renal agenesis (no kidneys, no proper lung development) — have had to seek abortion care out of state. One patient I managed who was unable to receive abortion care ultimately required an emergency hysterectomy and delivered an extremely premature infant, 14 weeks early.

State Senator Richard Briggs, a Republican and a physician, is the Senate sponsor of a bill in Tennessee that would amend the law to provide true exceptions to perform abortions for ectopic pregnancies and lethal fetal anomalies and to prevent maternal death or serious bodily harm. It has been developed with tireless input from physicians and in coalition with other anti-abortion state legislators. But the powerful anti-abortion group Tennessee Right to Life, which crafted the original law, has mobilized against the reform, threatening lawmakers that voting for it will affect their “pro-life score.” The group’s opposition has made the fate of Dr. Briggs’s amendment uncertain. (Right to Life has now lent support to a weaker alternative bill that would remove language about abortion care for women carrying pregnancies with fetal anomalies and may leave open the possibility of criminalizing contraceptive methods that could interrupt implantation of a fertilized embryo.)

Dr. Briggs’s amendment, which I support, is still very conservative and falls short of what I want for women in Tennessee. It does not include abortion exceptions for rape and incest, despite strong support among Tennessee residents for these provisions. It is not clear enough in protecting women who are miscarrying when a heartbeat is still present. Even if the amendment passes, Tennessee’s law will be more restrictive than the anti-abortion laws in nearby states like North Carolina, Georgia and Florida.

But I truly believe that pregnant women will die, if this hasn’t occurred already, as a direct result of the current law. When we deny abortion care to a woman in heart failure or on dialysis, we are gambling with her life.

On the other side, many reproductive rights advocates are wary of incremental changes to abortion restrictions. They have valid reasons: Exceptions in anti-abortion laws allow anti-abortion legislators to control the narrative, distinguishing elective abortions from medically indicated abortions and providing political cover to elected officials whose positions are often out of sync with public opinion even in very conservative states.

Elizabeth Nash, a state policy analyst at the Guttmacher Institute, a research group supporting abortion rights, writes that focusing on exceptions to anti-abortion laws creates a “false hierarchy” of who deserves abortion care. She and others have pointed out that exceptions are often designed in such a way that they are, in practice, nearly impossible to obtain. Critics of incremental change also note that there isn’t always political will for many changes, so you have to fight for what you want. I acknowledge the reality that we may not have the same momentum to eventually make it legal to provide abortion care to women carrying pregnancies with fetal anomalies or who are pregnant from rape or incest, much less abortions done for other reasons. This is the gamble I am willing to take.

In Tennessee the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, of which I am a member, along with the vast majority of my fellow obstetrician-gynecologists, has so far declined requests to champion our reform. The group said it cannot support legislation that does not fully restore abortion rights or that allows for governmental interference in reproductive health care. The association has used similar arguments in refusing to support a far more liberal Ohio referendum that would permit abortions until the point of fetal viability. (ACOG said that it has urged Tennessee members to support abortion access and that it is working in Ohio to craft alternate ballot initiative language.)

I worry that reproductive rights advocates may be digging into untenable positions and failing to listen to those affected most by the current reality. We are at a critical moment for abortion advocacy throughout the country. Do we support incremental changes that provide minimum safety for pregnant women and physicians? Or do we double down on positions that fail to respond to the needs of health care workers and advocates in states with some of the strictest anti-abortion laws? Do we acknowledge that even for some of us who firmly identify as pro-choice, the idea of abortion without any restrictions — abortions in the third trimester without serious fetal abnormalities, for instance — feels uncomfortable?

Reproductive rights groups have brought referendums to defend abortion rights, succeeding even in very conservative states, like Kansas, and revealing that public opinion about abortion is often less conservative than the opinion of state legislators. But that strategy will not work in the nearly half of states that do not have a statewide referendum process, including Tennessee and Texas. In Tennessee, that means any reform efforts must go through a highly gerrymandered Republican-controlled state legislature that is unlikely to change anytime soon. In 2014, Tennessee narrowly passed a constitutional amendment stating that “nothing in this Constitution secures or protects a right to abortion.” In these states, incremental change may be the best, and the only, option for protecting lives and expanding health care.

National organizations must accept the true impact of Dobbs on advocacy efforts. For the foreseeable future, this is a states’ issue. What works for Wisconsin may not work for Tennessee. We need our national organizations and our leaders to engage at the local level, listening to and supporting women and physicians living through this reality. Perhaps it is even time to find common ground with people and organizations on the other side for the sake of patient and physician safety. Progress without perfection is progress and still has value.

After I moved to Tennessee from the Midwest — and after training on the West Coast — I changed as a physician. I had never met women who chose to continue pregnancies after their membranes ruptured early in the second trimester, leaving them vulnerable to serious infections and increasing the chance that their babies’ lungs would not develop without amniotic fluid present, potentially causing death for both mom and baby. I had never met women who chose a cesarean to deliver a baby who would die shortly after birth because they valued a live birth. My 5 percent conversations are gentler and much more focused on patient values and choices, not mine.

But after Dobbs, I always use the word “abortion” because it is my professional obligation to communicate that abortion is health care and a choice that patients have, regardless of state politics. Many women I meet in Tennessee still choose abortion when faced with life-threatening circumstances. We need to ensure they have that option."
PizzaSnake
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Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by PizzaSnake »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:16 am Excellent guest column in the Times, about the medical care consequences of Tennessee's Post-Dobbs abortion laws:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/opin ... essee.html

"Before the Supreme Court’s ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, I did not consider myself an abortion provider. Ninety-five percent of my work as a high-risk obstetrician was helping women through complex pregnancies to achieve healthy outcomes for both them and their babies.

But I also served the 5 percent of women who did not think they could get pregnant on dialysis, who develop life-threatening hypertension and need delivery before their babies can survive preterm or who learn halfway through pregnancy that their baby has life-limiting birth defects. Before Dobbs, I did not use the word “abortion” when I talked to these patients about ending pregnancies; I opted instead to talk about terminating or interrupting pregnancies. But I wish I had. I should have conveyed that abortion is health care, can be lifesaving and happens more frequently than many of us acknowledge.

Now that abortion is banned in Tennessee, my fellow physicians and I face a new dilemma of how to operate under extremely restrictive abortion laws while maintaining our ethical responsibilities to provide needed health care. Part of this work requires advocating incremental changes that would have real, tangible effects on patients’ lives and accepting progress, however imperfect.

Other health care professionals in Tennessee and I are trying to reform one of the most restrictive bans in the country: the Human Life Protection Act, which became law in Tennessee after the Dobbs decision. It considers any action in which a live pregnancy is ended, other than in an effort to increase the probability of live birth, a felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Removing a six-week ectopic pregnancy in the fallopian tube or treating inevitable miscarriage is, by definition, a criminal offense.

There are no exceptions to the law. There is only an affirmative defense: If charged or prosecuted, physicians can present evidence that they performed an abortion to prevent death or “serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” For physicians considering their professional reputations, threat of criminal prosecution is terrifying and comes with immense financial costs because most hospitals do not pay for criminal defense.


As a physician practicing in Tennessee, I now must guess whether a prosecutor would charge me with a crime when I help women through those 5 percent situations, contending with the spectrum of risks and imperfect predictions. If a woman’s amniotic membranes rupture at 16 weeks, if she is febrile and bleeding, I think the risk of prosecution is low. If she is medically stable but at high risk for infection and hemorrhage, I am not sure.
I believe the state’s law was intended to be ambiguous and confusing, to make physicians scared to provide abortion care. We’re incentivized to pause, wait, reconsider — actions that can be life threatening. Women with ectopic pregnancies have waited in emergency rooms for hospital lawyers to determine whether an abortion can proceed. We have denied abortion care to women with cancer and other complex medical problems who find out they are pregnant. Women with pregnancies affected by life-limiting fetal anomalies — anencephaly (no skull or brain), renal agenesis (no kidneys, no proper lung development) — have had to seek abortion care out of state. One patient I managed who was unable to receive abortion care ultimately required an emergency hysterectomy and delivered an extremely premature infant, 14 weeks early.

State Senator Richard Briggs, a Republican and a physician, is the Senate sponsor of a bill in Tennessee that would amend the law to provide true exceptions to perform abortions for ectopic pregnancies and lethal fetal anomalies and to prevent maternal death or serious bodily harm. It has been developed with tireless input from physicians and in coalition with other anti-abortion state legislators. But the powerful anti-abortion group Tennessee Right to Life, which crafted the original law, has mobilized against the reform, threatening lawmakers that voting for it will affect their “pro-life score.” The group’s opposition has made the fate of Dr. Briggs’s amendment uncertain. (Right to Life has now lent support to a weaker alternative bill that would remove language about abortion care for women carrying pregnancies with fetal anomalies and may leave open the possibility of criminalizing contraceptive methods that could interrupt implantation of a fertilized embryo.)

Dr. Briggs’s amendment, which I support, is still very conservative and falls short of what I want for women in Tennessee. It does not include abortion exceptions for rape and incest, despite strong support among Tennessee residents for these provisions. It is not clear enough in protecting women who are miscarrying when a heartbeat is still present. Even if the amendment passes, Tennessee’s law will be more restrictive than the anti-abortion laws in nearby states like North Carolina, Georgia and Florida.

But I truly believe that pregnant women will die, if this hasn’t occurred already, as a direct result of the current law. When we deny abortion care to a woman in heart failure or on dialysis, we are gambling with her life.

On the other side, many reproductive rights advocates are wary of incremental changes to abortion restrictions. They have valid reasons: Exceptions in anti-abortion laws allow anti-abortion legislators to control the narrative, distinguishing elective abortions from medically indicated abortions and providing political cover to elected officials whose positions are often out of sync with public opinion even in very conservative states.

Elizabeth Nash, a state policy analyst at the Guttmacher Institute, a research group supporting abortion rights, writes that focusing on exceptions to anti-abortion laws creates a “false hierarchy” of who deserves abortion care. She and others have pointed out that exceptions are often designed in such a way that they are, in practice, nearly impossible to obtain. Critics of incremental change also note that there isn’t always political will for many changes, so you have to fight for what you want. I acknowledge the reality that we may not have the same momentum to eventually make it legal to provide abortion care to women carrying pregnancies with fetal anomalies or who are pregnant from rape or incest, much less abortions done for other reasons. This is the gamble I am willing to take.

In Tennessee the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, of which I am a member, along with the vast majority of my fellow obstetrician-gynecologists, has so far declined requests to champion our reform. The group said it cannot support legislation that does not fully restore abortion rights or that allows for governmental interference in reproductive health care. The association has used similar arguments in refusing to support a far more liberal Ohio referendum that would permit abortions until the point of fetal viability. (ACOG said that it has urged Tennessee members to support abortion access and that it is working in Ohio to craft alternate ballot initiative language.)

I worry that reproductive rights advocates may be digging into untenable positions and failing to listen to those affected most by the current reality. We are at a critical moment for abortion advocacy throughout the country. Do we support incremental changes that provide minimum safety for pregnant women and physicians? Or do we double down on positions that fail to respond to the needs of health care workers and advocates in states with some of the strictest anti-abortion laws? Do we acknowledge that even for some of us who firmly identify as pro-choice, the idea of abortion without any restrictions — abortions in the third trimester without serious fetal abnormalities, for instance — feels uncomfortable?

Reproductive rights groups have brought referendums to defend abortion rights, succeeding even in very conservative states, like Kansas, and revealing that public opinion about abortion is often less conservative than the opinion of state legislators. But that strategy will not work in the nearly half of states that do not have a statewide referendum process, including Tennessee and Texas. In Tennessee, that means any reform efforts must go through a highly gerrymandered Republican-controlled state legislature that is unlikely to change anytime soon. In 2014, Tennessee narrowly passed a constitutional amendment stating that “nothing in this Constitution secures or protects a right to abortion.” In these states, incremental change may be the best, and the only, option for protecting lives and expanding health care.

National organizations must accept the true impact of Dobbs on advocacy efforts. For the foreseeable future, this is a states’ issue. What works for Wisconsin may not work for Tennessee. We need our national organizations and our leaders to engage at the local level, listening to and supporting women and physicians living through this reality. Perhaps it is even time to find common ground with people and organizations on the other side for the sake of patient and physician safety. Progress without perfection is progress and still has value.

After I moved to Tennessee from the Midwest — and after training on the West Coast — I changed as a physician. I had never met women who chose to continue pregnancies after their membranes ruptured early in the second trimester, leaving them vulnerable to serious infections and increasing the chance that their babies’ lungs would not develop without amniotic fluid present, potentially causing death for both mom and baby. I had never met women who chose a cesarean to deliver a baby who would die shortly after birth because they valued a live birth. My 5 percent conversations are gentler and much more focused on patient values and choices, not mine.

But after Dobbs, I always use the word “abortion” because it is my professional obligation to communicate that abortion is health care and a choice that patients have, regardless of state politics. Many women I meet in Tennessee still choose abortion when faced with life-threatening circumstances. We need to ensure they have that option."
Simple solution to this ethical dilemma: move to a less asz-backwards state. Let the Great Sorting begin. For starters, let's leave Floriduh to be God's Waiting room, a haven for Russian mafioso and religious zealots, with a leavening of trailer trash.

"Now that abortion is banned in Tennessee, my fellow physicians and I face a new dilemma of how to operate under extremely restrictive abortion laws while maintaining our ethical responsibilities to provide needed health care."

I'm tired of fighting with idiots. If these communities want to live in a New Gilead-like regime, then so be it. Otherwise, get off yer aszcrack and vote the pasty-white mullahs out.

I for one will be changing my registration to Rethug for the presidential primaries so I can sow a little discord. My little gift to the grifters.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
jhu72
Posts: 14459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: The Abortion Thread

Post by jhu72 »

PizzaSnake wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:31 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:16 am Excellent guest column in the Times, about the medical care consequences of Tennessee's Post-Dobbs abortion laws:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/16/opin ... essee.html

"Before the Supreme Court’s ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, I did not consider myself an abortion provider. Ninety-five percent of my work as a high-risk obstetrician was helping women through complex pregnancies to achieve healthy outcomes for both them and their babies.

But I also served the 5 percent of women who did not think they could get pregnant on dialysis, who develop life-threatening hypertension and need delivery before their babies can survive preterm or who learn halfway through pregnancy that their baby has life-limiting birth defects. Before Dobbs, I did not use the word “abortion” when I talked to these patients about ending pregnancies; I opted instead to talk about terminating or interrupting pregnancies. But I wish I had. I should have conveyed that abortion is health care, can be lifesaving and happens more frequently than many of us acknowledge.

Now that abortion is banned in Tennessee, my fellow physicians and I face a new dilemma of how to operate under extremely restrictive abortion laws while maintaining our ethical responsibilities to provide needed health care. Part of this work requires advocating incremental changes that would have real, tangible effects on patients’ lives and accepting progress, however imperfect.

Other health care professionals in Tennessee and I are trying to reform one of the most restrictive bans in the country: the Human Life Protection Act, which became law in Tennessee after the Dobbs decision. It considers any action in which a live pregnancy is ended, other than in an effort to increase the probability of live birth, a felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Removing a six-week ectopic pregnancy in the fallopian tube or treating inevitable miscarriage is, by definition, a criminal offense.

There are no exceptions to the law. There is only an affirmative defense: If charged or prosecuted, physicians can present evidence that they performed an abortion to prevent death or “serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” For physicians considering their professional reputations, threat of criminal prosecution is terrifying and comes with immense financial costs because most hospitals do not pay for criminal defense.


As a physician practicing in Tennessee, I now must guess whether a prosecutor would charge me with a crime when I help women through those 5 percent situations, contending with the spectrum of risks and imperfect predictions. If a woman’s amniotic membranes rupture at 16 weeks, if she is febrile and bleeding, I think the risk of prosecution is low. If she is medically stable but at high risk for infection and hemorrhage, I am not sure.
I believe the state’s law was intended to be ambiguous and confusing, to make physicians scared to provide abortion care. We’re incentivized to pause, wait, reconsider — actions that can be life threatening. Women with ectopic pregnancies have waited in emergency rooms for hospital lawyers to determine whether an abortion can proceed. We have denied abortion care to women with cancer and other complex medical problems who find out they are pregnant. Women with pregnancies affected by life-limiting fetal anomalies — anencephaly (no skull or brain), renal agenesis (no kidneys, no proper lung development) — have had to seek abortion care out of state. One patient I managed who was unable to receive abortion care ultimately required an emergency hysterectomy and delivered an extremely premature infant, 14 weeks early.

State Senator Richard Briggs, a Republican and a physician, is the Senate sponsor of a bill in Tennessee that would amend the law to provide true exceptions to perform abortions for ectopic pregnancies and lethal fetal anomalies and to prevent maternal death or serious bodily harm. It has been developed with tireless input from physicians and in coalition with other anti-abortion state legislators. But the powerful anti-abortion group Tennessee Right to Life, which crafted the original law, has mobilized against the reform, threatening lawmakers that voting for it will affect their “pro-life score.” The group’s opposition has made the fate of Dr. Briggs’s amendment uncertain. (Right to Life has now lent support to a weaker alternative bill that would remove language about abortion care for women carrying pregnancies with fetal anomalies and may leave open the possibility of criminalizing contraceptive methods that could interrupt implantation of a fertilized embryo.)

Dr. Briggs’s amendment, which I support, is still very conservative and falls short of what I want for women in Tennessee. It does not include abortion exceptions for rape and incest, despite strong support among Tennessee residents for these provisions. It is not clear enough in protecting women who are miscarrying when a heartbeat is still present. Even if the amendment passes, Tennessee’s law will be more restrictive than the anti-abortion laws in nearby states like North Carolina, Georgia and Florida.

But I truly believe that pregnant women will die, if this hasn’t occurred already, as a direct result of the current law. When we deny abortion care to a woman in heart failure or on dialysis, we are gambling with her life.

On the other side, many reproductive rights advocates are wary of incremental changes to abortion restrictions. They have valid reasons: Exceptions in anti-abortion laws allow anti-abortion legislators to control the narrative, distinguishing elective abortions from medically indicated abortions and providing political cover to elected officials whose positions are often out of sync with public opinion even in very conservative states.

Elizabeth Nash, a state policy analyst at the Guttmacher Institute, a research group supporting abortion rights, writes that focusing on exceptions to anti-abortion laws creates a “false hierarchy” of who deserves abortion care. She and others have pointed out that exceptions are often designed in such a way that they are, in practice, nearly impossible to obtain. Critics of incremental change also note that there isn’t always political will for many changes, so you have to fight for what you want. I acknowledge the reality that we may not have the same momentum to eventually make it legal to provide abortion care to women carrying pregnancies with fetal anomalies or who are pregnant from rape or incest, much less abortions done for other reasons. This is the gamble I am willing to take.

In Tennessee the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, of which I am a member, along with the vast majority of my fellow obstetrician-gynecologists, has so far declined requests to champion our reform. The group said it cannot support legislation that does not fully restore abortion rights or that allows for governmental interference in reproductive health care. The association has used similar arguments in refusing to support a far more liberal Ohio referendum that would permit abortions until the point of fetal viability. (ACOG said that it has urged Tennessee members to support abortion access and that it is working in Ohio to craft alternate ballot initiative language.)

I worry that reproductive rights advocates may be digging into untenable positions and failing to listen to those affected most by the current reality. We are at a critical moment for abortion advocacy throughout the country. Do we support incremental changes that provide minimum safety for pregnant women and physicians? Or do we double down on positions that fail to respond to the needs of health care workers and advocates in states with some of the strictest anti-abortion laws? Do we acknowledge that even for some of us who firmly identify as pro-choice, the idea of abortion without any restrictions — abortions in the third trimester without serious fetal abnormalities, for instance — feels uncomfortable?

Reproductive rights groups have brought referendums to defend abortion rights, succeeding even in very conservative states, like Kansas, and revealing that public opinion about abortion is often less conservative than the opinion of state legislators. But that strategy will not work in the nearly half of states that do not have a statewide referendum process, including Tennessee and Texas. In Tennessee, that means any reform efforts must go through a highly gerrymandered Republican-controlled state legislature that is unlikely to change anytime soon. In 2014, Tennessee narrowly passed a constitutional amendment stating that “nothing in this Constitution secures or protects a right to abortion.” In these states, incremental change may be the best, and the only, option for protecting lives and expanding health care.

National organizations must accept the true impact of Dobbs on advocacy efforts. For the foreseeable future, this is a states’ issue. What works for Wisconsin may not work for Tennessee. We need our national organizations and our leaders to engage at the local level, listening to and supporting women and physicians living through this reality. Perhaps it is even time to find common ground with people and organizations on the other side for the sake of patient and physician safety. Progress without perfection is progress and still has value.

After I moved to Tennessee from the Midwest — and after training on the West Coast — I changed as a physician. I had never met women who chose to continue pregnancies after their membranes ruptured early in the second trimester, leaving them vulnerable to serious infections and increasing the chance that their babies’ lungs would not develop without amniotic fluid present, potentially causing death for both mom and baby. I had never met women who chose a cesarean to deliver a baby who would die shortly after birth because they valued a live birth. My 5 percent conversations are gentler and much more focused on patient values and choices, not mine.

But after Dobbs, I always use the word “abortion” because it is my professional obligation to communicate that abortion is health care and a choice that patients have, regardless of state politics. Many women I meet in Tennessee still choose abortion when faced with life-threatening circumstances. We need to ensure they have that option."
Simple solution to this ethical dilemma: move to a less asz-backwards state. Let the Great Sorting begin. For starters, let's leave Floriduh to be God's Waiting room, a haven for Russian mafioso and religious zealots, with a leavening of trailer trash.

"Now that abortion is banned in Tennessee, my fellow physicians and I face a new dilemma of how to operate under extremely restrictive abortion laws while maintaining our ethical responsibilities to provide needed health care."

I'm tired of fighting with idiots. If these communities want to live in a New Gilead-like regime, then so be it. Otherwise, get off yer aszcrack and vote the pasty-white mullahs out.

I for one will be changing my registration to Rethug for the presidential primaries so I can sow a little discord. My little gift to the grifters.
... I have had the same thought. Time for a bunch of sane folks to register republican and wreak some havoc! Just need enough to do it in an organized fashion.
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