a fan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:02 pmI don't remember a single poll that said Trump's chance in a State polled was 0%.njbill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:59 amNo it didn’t. In 2016 the large majority of national polls were within the margin of error. Some state polls were off, but if your theory were correct, you would expect national polls to have been wrong as well. They weren’t.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:35 am people are shocked polls are inaccurate? It certainly occurred in 2016 polls.
The polling wasn't wrong, despite the nonstop blathering about polling from Foxnation.
If you draw an inside straight, does that means the odds were wrong? FoxNation thinks so. I'm starting to understand who my brother keeps fleecing at the poker table. (kidding)
2020 Elections - Trump FIRED
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
Good luck with that.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:35 amWe see it all the time on these boards- When people are doxxed, harassed, immediately categorized and labeled as murderers, uneducated, deplorable, dumb azzes, un-sympathetic, fascist, racist, etc. for supporting Trump, people are shocked polls are inaccurate? It certainly occurred in 2016 polls. It will continue in 2020.foreverlax wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:26 amWhy would any be afraid to state their positions anonymously....makes no sense?6ftstick wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:12 am An explanation for why Biden leads in some polls
A new poll commissioned by the libertarian Cato Institute and released on Wednesday suggests that nearly two-thirds of Americans are afraid to share their political views.
According to the poll, 62% of Americans — and 77% of Republicans — are afraid to share their views.
I do wonder how many Rs are now former Rs....
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
Good luck with what?
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
… people do lie to pollsters. It is not really that uncommon, especially among the white blue collar working class. There is general paranoia among these folks, it is not new. Polling has changed to account for this. It is far less random than you would think, who gets polled. I suspect the various polling organizations know where this was a problem in 2016 and have modified their system to account for it. We will see.njbill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:59 amNo it didn’t. In 2016 the large majority of national polls were within the margin of error. Some state polls were off, but if your theory were correct, you would expect national polls to have been wrong as well. They weren’t.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:35 am people are shocked polls are inaccurate? It certainly occurred in 2016 polls.
Perhaps some state polls were wrong because they failed to spend enough time to reach a true, representative sampling of the voters, but that is entirely different from people lying to pollsters.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
If Biden's current polls are as far off as Hillary's were, Biden still wins today.njbill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:59 amNo it didn’t. In 2016 the large majority of national polls were within the margin of error. Some state polls were off, but if your theory were correct, you would expect national polls to have been wrong as well. They weren’t.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:35 am people are shocked polls are inaccurate? It certainly occurred in 2016 polls.
Trump is in a deeper hole against Biden (as of now) than he ever was against Hillary. 2016 had way more undecideds and third party voters. Hillary was way more unpopular than Biden is. Dems didn't like Hillary and thought she would easily win anyway -- complacent.
2020 Dems are juiced to turn out are kick Trump to the curb. Doesn't mean Trump can't win. But it does mean he's further behind than in 2016.
On 7/30/16, 538 gave Trump a 50.1% chance of winning after all.
We'll see..
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
The biggest problem with polling is not people who lie (the "Bradley effect"), but predicting who will actually vote. This is where the polls were off in 2016: a lot of Trump voters were people who wouldn't have voted if it was Jeb! or Rubio or Cruz or Kasich. The effect was not all that big, but in a tight race was enough to flip three key states (PA, WI, MI). Pollsters know this of course and have changed their likely-voter screens.
My guess is that they've overcompensated, and that Trump will actually underperform his polling.
My guess is that they've overcompensated, and that Trump will actually underperform his polling.
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
Pollsters do not call people at random. They try to reach a representative cross-section of the voters in, say, the state in which they are conducting the poll in terms of age, race, income, gender, and a variety of other factors. That’s why they ask you all of those preliminary questions.
So if, for example, the state in question is 60% white, they try to make sure that 60% of the respondents are white. Same with the other factors. It is more difficult these days because fewer people answer calls from unknown numbers and, if they do, fewer agree to take the time to answer the pollsters’ questions. Pollsters claim they keep making calls until they get the number of responses they need in each demographic.
One of the key problems in 2016 was reaching Trump voters because, apparently, they were less willing to participate in polls or harder to reach or something. So if, for example, the pollster needed to get 20% of its responses from white, male, blue-collar workers, those in that group they actually reached may not have been representative of that specific demographic. The pollsters checked off the appropriate box, but the results were inaccurate because the responses of this sub-group were not really representative. This is one of the things they are trying to fix for 2020.
Another thing that apparently happened in 2016 is that some number of undecided voters broke for Trump at the last minute. It isn’t that they lied to pollsters – they may have honestly said they were undecided when polled – but when they went into the booth, they pulled the lever for Trump.
In terms of lying to posters, that may occur with some of the demographic questions (how much money do you make?), but I do not believe it occurs to any significant degree with respect to the key question of who are you going to vote for. That just makes no logical sense to me. If that were true, the national polls in 2016 would’ve been inaccurate. They weren’t. The below NYT article discounts the existence of the so-called “shy” Trump voter.
My own surmise is that state polls are more likely to be inaccurate than national polls. For one thing, the smaller the voter base, the more likely the results will be inaccurate. If a town has 10 voters and you only poll two of them, your results may not reliably predict the outcome of the election. If the town has 1 million voters and you survey 200,000, your results are likely to be more accurate than they would be in the small town.
Another reason is that I suspect state polls are less well-funded and put together with less sophistication than national polls. Accordingly, they may be less accurate.
To my mind, the key thing pollsters have to try to do a better job of this year is getting responses from Trump voters. I think that was the main problem in 2016, though not the only one. Whether pollsters will be able to improve their performance this time remains to be seen.
Like them or hate them, accurate or inaccurate, polls are the best information we have as we careen towards November 3.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/31/upsh ... trump.html
So if, for example, the state in question is 60% white, they try to make sure that 60% of the respondents are white. Same with the other factors. It is more difficult these days because fewer people answer calls from unknown numbers and, if they do, fewer agree to take the time to answer the pollsters’ questions. Pollsters claim they keep making calls until they get the number of responses they need in each demographic.
One of the key problems in 2016 was reaching Trump voters because, apparently, they were less willing to participate in polls or harder to reach or something. So if, for example, the pollster needed to get 20% of its responses from white, male, blue-collar workers, those in that group they actually reached may not have been representative of that specific demographic. The pollsters checked off the appropriate box, but the results were inaccurate because the responses of this sub-group were not really representative. This is one of the things they are trying to fix for 2020.
Another thing that apparently happened in 2016 is that some number of undecided voters broke for Trump at the last minute. It isn’t that they lied to pollsters – they may have honestly said they were undecided when polled – but when they went into the booth, they pulled the lever for Trump.
In terms of lying to posters, that may occur with some of the demographic questions (how much money do you make?), but I do not believe it occurs to any significant degree with respect to the key question of who are you going to vote for. That just makes no logical sense to me. If that were true, the national polls in 2016 would’ve been inaccurate. They weren’t. The below NYT article discounts the existence of the so-called “shy” Trump voter.
My own surmise is that state polls are more likely to be inaccurate than national polls. For one thing, the smaller the voter base, the more likely the results will be inaccurate. If a town has 10 voters and you only poll two of them, your results may not reliably predict the outcome of the election. If the town has 1 million voters and you survey 200,000, your results are likely to be more accurate than they would be in the small town.
Another reason is that I suspect state polls are less well-funded and put together with less sophistication than national polls. Accordingly, they may be less accurate.
To my mind, the key thing pollsters have to try to do a better job of this year is getting responses from Trump voters. I think that was the main problem in 2016, though not the only one. Whether pollsters will be able to improve their performance this time remains to be seen.
Like them or hate them, accurate or inaccurate, polls are the best information we have as we careen towards November 3.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/31/upsh ... trump.html
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
This is certainly true. Not sure about the overcompensation, but it would make sense.CU77 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:36 pm The biggest problem with polling is not people who lie (the "Bradley effect"), but predicting who will actually vote. This is where the polls were off in 2016: a lot of Trump voters were people who wouldn't have voted if it was Jeb! or Rubio or Cruz or Kasich. The effect was not all that big, but in a tight race was enough to flip three key states (PA, WI, MI). Pollsters know this of course and have changed their likely-voter screens.
My guess is that they've overcompensated, and that Trump will actually underperform his polling.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
Seems like only yesterday ggait was posting the 538 polls...man time flies.ggait wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:33 pmIf Biden's current polls are as far off as Hillary's were, Biden still wins today.njbill wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:59 amNo it didn’t. In 2016 the large majority of national polls were within the margin of error. Some state polls were off, but if your theory were correct, you would expect national polls to have been wrong as well. They weren’t.kramerica.inc wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:35 am people are shocked polls are inaccurate? It certainly occurred in 2016 polls.
Trump is in a deeper hole against Biden (as of now) than he ever was against Hillary. 2016 had way more undecideds and third party voters. Hillary was way more unpopular than Biden is. Dems didn't like Hillary and thought she would easily win anyway -- complacent.
2020 Dems are juiced to turn out are kick Trump to the curb. Doesn't mean Trump can't win. But it does mean he's further behind than in 2016.
On 7/30/16, 538 gave Trump a 50.1% chance of winning after all.
We'll see..
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
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“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
In 2016, the polls were about as accurate as they usually are.
In 2016, the difference WAS NOT due to the so-called "shy" Trump voters. This has been studied and proven.
The problem in 2016 was that the interpretation of the largely accurate polls SUCKED. Hillary's position was much less solid than most analysts concluded.
The best mainstream prognosticator was Nate Silver at 538. He gave Trump a 28.6% chance to win. That's drawing to a flush (25%), not to an inside straight (8%).
No guarantees, obviously. But Sleepy Creepy is currently further ahead of Trump than Hillary ever was. If the current polls miss in Trump's favor to the extent they did in 2016, Biden would still win. So Trump has to (i) get closer to Joe than in the current polls before election day AND ALSO (ii) have the pre-election polls be wrong in his favor by a couple of points.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bi ... -her-peak/
In 2016, the difference WAS NOT due to the so-called "shy" Trump voters. This has been studied and proven.
The problem in 2016 was that the interpretation of the largely accurate polls SUCKED. Hillary's position was much less solid than most analysts concluded.
The best mainstream prognosticator was Nate Silver at 538. He gave Trump a 28.6% chance to win. That's drawing to a flush (25%), not to an inside straight (8%).
No guarantees, obviously. But Sleepy Creepy is currently further ahead of Trump than Hillary ever was. If the current polls miss in Trump's favor to the extent they did in 2016, Biden would still win. So Trump has to (i) get closer to Joe than in the current polls before election day AND ALSO (ii) have the pre-election polls be wrong in his favor by a couple of points.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bi ... -her-peak/
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/watch-jo ... interview/
Dementia Joe is at it again. If I use MD logic this latest gaff on Dementia Joes part is due to his stuttering problem. Everybody with a stuttering problem calls black reporters "junkies" right MD? You stupid, freaking brain damaged Democrats are trying to tell us this is the best candidate your pathetic party you can put up against trump? America is in one effed up position in our upcoming election. No matter which one of these dumb clucks that wins... America loses. So when are all my FLP tenderfoots on this forum going to demand Dementia Joe apologize to the country for his degrading and insulting remarks about black people?
Dementia Joe is at it again. If I use MD logic this latest gaff on Dementia Joes part is due to his stuttering problem. Everybody with a stuttering problem calls black reporters "junkies" right MD? You stupid, freaking brain damaged Democrats are trying to tell us this is the best candidate your pathetic party you can put up against trump? America is in one effed up position in our upcoming election. No matter which one of these dumb clucks that wins... America loses. So when are all my FLP tenderfoots on this forum going to demand Dementia Joe apologize to the country for his degrading and insulting remarks about black people?
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
At least Biden will choose a Cabinet that is not made up of flattering toadies from the Freshman Reserve Team bench. America wins if Biden wins -- no real question about it.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:30 pm https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/watch-jo ... interview/
Dementia Joe is at it again. If I use MD logic this latest gaff on Dementia Joes part is due to his stuttering problem. Everybody with a stuttering problem calls black reporters "junkies" right MD? You stupid, freaking brain damaged Democrats are trying to tell us this is the best candidate your pathetic party you can put up against trump? America is in one effed up position in our upcoming election. No matter which one of these dumb clucks that wins... America loses. So when are all my FLP tenderfoots on this forum going to demand Dementia Joe apologize to the country for his degrading and insulting remarks about black people?
Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
if one of the debates is instead a live cognitive contest, i'm cancelling any plans i don't care what they are.cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:30 pm https://heavy.com/news/2020/08/watch-jo ... interview/
Dementia Joe is at it again. If I use MD logic this latest gaff on Dementia Joes part is due to his stuttering problem. Everybody with a stuttering problem calls black reporters "junkies" right MD? You stupid, freaking brain damaged Democrats are trying to tell us this is the best candidate your pathetic party you can put up against trump? America is in one effed up position in our upcoming election. No matter which one of these dumb clucks that wins... America loses. So when are all my FLP tenderfoots on this forum going to demand Dementia Joe apologize to the country for his degrading and insulting remarks about black people?
only twists i insist on is trump gets to take calls while ongoing from peeps telling him what he's doing is unbelievable and they can't believe how awesome he's doing.
and biden doesn't get anyone off camera giving him the "cut/stop" sign.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
I kind of like it; he's pugnacious. He couldn't say "Oh f*ck you."
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/0 ... est-391771
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
It was probably a big effing deal as well. You never know when Uncle Joe could drop an F bomb.seacoaster wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:58 pm I kind of like it; he's pugnacious. He couldn't say "Oh f*ck you."
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/0 ... est-391771
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
Missouri votes to expand Medicaid under Obamacare as a state constitutional amendment. This bodes well for November election. Republicans have been fighting this for a decade.
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
Ya just have to vote democrat with liberal progressive ideas like this
https://www.facebook.com/thescoop.us/vi ... 0804324113
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Re: 2020 Elections - Enough Divisiveness Already
What can possibly go wrong changing the way we vote over the next couple of months.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics ... m4zA9B9KSA
City councilman among 4 facing voter fraud charges in New Jersey
The investigation began after the US Postal Inspection Service found hundreds of mail-in ballots in a mailbox in Paterson. Numerous additional ballots were found in another mailbox in nearby Haledon, according to a release from the attorney general. The May 12 elections in New Jersey were conducted by mail-in ballots due to the coronavirus pandemic.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics ... m4zA9B9KSA
City councilman among 4 facing voter fraud charges in New Jersey
The investigation began after the US Postal Inspection Service found hundreds of mail-in ballots in a mailbox in Paterson. Numerous additional ballots were found in another mailbox in nearby Haledon, according to a release from the attorney general. The May 12 elections in New Jersey were conducted by mail-in ballots due to the coronavirus pandemic.