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Russia’s Armed Forces: Unprofessional Cowards

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:59 pm
by DocBarrister
There are many signs demonstrating that the Russian armed forces are little more than murderous, incompetent cowards: tragic tales of Ukrainian women being raped, videos of captured Ukrainian soldiers being castrated, tales of looting by the Russian garbage pretending to be soldiers.

Yet, the surest sign of just how cowardly and unprofessional the invading Russians are may be seen in how they treat their own. Indeed, the true character of the Russian invaders is revealed in the thousands of dead bodies that the Russian forces casually leave behind as they flee danger.

A day after Ukrainian forces retook control of Lyman, a strategic railway hub in eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, a picture began to emerge of the destruction left behind by fleeing Russian soldiers who had occupied the city for months. In a hasty withdrawal, they abandoned official documents, military vehicles and the bodies of their comrades.

… At one point, the road into town passed the remnants of what appeared to be a Ukrainian attack on Russian soldiers trying to flee the city in a civilian van. The vehicle’s doors were open and sleeping bags, pads, military coats, rations, shoes and other supplies had spilled out.

Nearby, on the side of the road, were anti-tank mines and the bodies of half a dozen Russian soldiers. A line of Ukrainian military trucks rumbled by, as a demining team checked the bodies for boobytraps, using ropes to tug and jostle them from a distance in case they exploded.

Asked how the Russians had died, one of the soldiers on the demining team shrugged. “They came to a foreign land,” he said.


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/10/02 ... e-war-news

It has to be deeply embarrassing to wear a Russian uniform these days.

DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:20 pm
by Typical Lax Dad

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm
by old salt
Kismet wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:06 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:39 am
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:08 am The EUros plan to eliminate the use of fossil fuels & nuclear power for energy is working out great for them.

What could go wrong ? Read, fire, aim.
And Russia, that's out of men, ammo, and money........who do you think they're going to sell their gas to if they stick it to all of Europe for an entire winter?

What happens when demand for your product drops by an entire freaking continent?

But sure, the EU is the only dumb crew here. Win the battle, lose the war.

NATO is broken, and has been since Turkey took Russian arms, and much of the rest of NATO took Russian gas.
and as Tom Friedman points out

"There is only one cardinal sin in the energy business: Never, ever, ever make yourself an unreliable supplier. No one will ever trust you again. Putin has made himself an unreliable supplier to some of his oldest and best customers."

When this Putin ploy doesn't work, he's screwed as his only customers left are China and India who will pay a fraction per unit that his old customers paid. If he overplays his had militarily, they will likely eventually opt out, too.

But let's blame our allies and give Russia a pass. Sure thing. :oops:
Deflect, deflect, deflect. The EU nations are supposed to be our allies in countering the Russian threat.

None of that will help get the EU through this winter & those which follow.
The market can't adjust fast enough & it will come at great cost.

The EU was warned at every step that they were empowering Russia with their over-dependence on Russian energy.
Just another example of the EUros putting their commercial interests ahead of their basic security requirements,
confident that US military power would deter Putin from doing what he's been telling us he intended since 2007.
Blame the scorpion for stinging you. Our feckless EU allies enabled Putin & sucked us into this stupid European war.
How can we now rely on them to endure the pain that an open ended war will bring rather than pushing for a cease fire & frozen conflict, if an immediate settlement can't be reached ? How many winters will the EUroburghers endure, ...& Wall St, checked your 401k recently ?

The developing world will still need more fossil fuel. The global market adjusts.
Look at the UN votes. Russia will always find customers.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:06 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:39 am
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:08 am The EUros plan to eliminate the use of fossil fuels & nuclear power for energy is working out great for them.

What could go wrong ? Read, fire, aim.
And Russia, that's out of men, ammo, and money........who do you think they're going to sell their gas to if they stick it to all of Europe for an entire winter?

What happens when demand for your product drops by an entire freaking continent?

But sure, the EU is the only dumb crew here. Win the battle, lose the war.

NATO is broken, and has been since Turkey took Russian arms, and much of the rest of NATO took Russian gas.
and as Tom Friedman points out

"There is only one cardinal sin in the energy business: Never, ever, ever make yourself an unreliable supplier. No one will ever trust you again. Putin has made himself an unreliable supplier to some of his oldest and best customers."

When this Putin ploy doesn't work, he's screwed as his only customers left are China and India who will pay a fraction per unit that his old customers paid. If he overplays his had militarily, they will likely eventually opt out, too.

But let's blame our allies and give Russia a pass. Sure thing. :oops:
Deflect, deflect, deflect. The EU nations are supposed to be our allies in countering the Russian threat.

None of that will help get the EU through this winter & those which follow.
The market can't adjust fast enough & it will come at great cost.

The EU was warned at every step that they were empowering Russia with their over-dependence on Russian energy.
Just another example of the EUros putting their commercial interests ahead of their basic security requirements,
confident that US military power would deter Putin from doing what he's been telling us he intended since 2007.
Blame the scorpion for stinging you. Our feckless EU allies enabled Putin & sucked us into this stupid European war.
How can we now rely on them to endure the pain that an open ended war will bring rather than pushing for a cease fire & frozen conflict, if an immediate settlement can't be reached ? How many winters will the EUroburghers endure, ...& Wall St, checked your 401k recently ?

The developing world will still need more fossil fuel. The global market adjusts.
Look at the UN votes. Russia will always find customers.
But those “replacement” customers, including China and India, will never pay as much as the Europeans.

The war is solely the fault of Putin. And Putin just screwed his own nation by screwing Russia’s best customers.

The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:55 pm
by old salt
Kismet wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:42 am More typical right wing propaganda. Demonize the EUro allies (except fascist types in Hungary and Italy) and congratulate the Rooskies. Must be good to be with the Tucker & Tulsi crowd primetime on RT. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: You all never seem to disappoint in this regard. It's really mystifying. Stick with Friedman & the NYT. They never get it wrong.

CPAC had to take down a pro-Russian tweet over the weekend that looked like it was written by the Kremlin featuring waving Russian flags. When do you begin to advocate to Orange Cheato to mediate? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah genius. Focus on the trivial background noise.

It was reported today that Russian dead in Ukraine to date are over 62 000 not to mention lost equipment and ammunition. They have not conscripted soldiers since WWII. ...& look at what it's costing the US taxpayer to take that old Soviet junk out of the fight. Meanwhile, we're giving new generations of Russians reasons to hate the USA for meddling in their back yard from halfway around the world. They're not all able to flee the draft.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
by old salt
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Rah. Rah. Let's inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia & ensure future centuries of enmity toward the West, ...& the US in particular.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:16 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
It’s the people Russia now holds.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:35 pm
by old salt
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:16 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
It’s the people Russia now holds.
Most of them have been living under Russian rule since 2014. The newly taken territory has been devastated. Those who have not already fled can be resettled in other areas of Ukraine or stay & live as Russians, as the residents of Crimea & the separatist controlled areas of the Donbas have.
It's not perfect but it's similar to the NATO engineered settlements in the Balkans, which are still functional.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:14 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:35 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:16 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
It’s the people Russia now holds.
Most of them have been living under Russian rule since 2014. The newly taken territory has been devastated. Those who have not already fled can be resettled in other areas of Ukraine or stay & live as Russians, as the residents of Crimea & the separatist controlled areas of the Donbas have.
It's not perfect but it's similar to the NATO engineered settlements in the Balkans, which are still functional.
Un huh.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:00 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.
30+ years of peace until Putin violated the deal he brokered with Ukraine to get rid of their nukes. Who's fault is that?
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm Rah. Rah. Let's inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia & ensure future centuries of enmity toward the West, ...& the US in particular.
Now you're just making stuff up.

We humiliated them by winning the Cold War, and becoming the dominant power. So that ship already sailed.

But because Putin is such as sh*t leader, instead of taking hillary's hand, and ramping up trade with America? He chose to invade a financially pointless piece of land, and blow billions...that he can't afford to blow..... to do it. He's an idiot, and the Russians have no one to blame but themselves.
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
So send a letter to Zelensky and Putin. We can't call the shots here, even though you transparently want to blame everyone but Putin for this mess. We don't call the shots over there.

Unless, that is, you're back to playing your game of suggesting we cut Ukraine off from arms, forcing Zelensky's hand.....without saying it outright.

If that's not what you're doing? Stop complaining. We don't call the shots here.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:37 pm
by old salt
a fan wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:00 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.
30+ years of peace until Putin violated the deal he brokered with Ukraine to get rid of their nukes. Who's fault is that?
Of course it's Putin's fault. So what ? What are you gonna do about it ? Pass a UN resolution condemning him.
Sanctions ? Trade Embargo ? OK with me. Get the rest of the world to go along, ...starting with our EUburgher "allies".
...& it was 22 years until Crimea & the Donbas, 16 years until Georgia. Plenty of time for Ukraine to prepare to defend themselves & deter an incursion.


old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm Rah. Rah. Let's inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia & ensure future centuries of enmity toward the West, ...& the US in particular.
Now you're just making stuff up.

We humiliated them by winning the Cold War, and becoming the dominant power. So that ship already sailed.
They weren't humiliated. US & NATO troops did not invade like the Germans, French & even the Swedes had before. They were happy to have Communism lifted, until their corrupt "democratic" leaders & oligarchs looted their economy. They enjoyed the party with drunken Boris & slick Willie. Even Putin 1.0 & Medvedev could be dealt with. Then we expanded NATO to Russia's border & (w/Soros as wingman) started fomenting the color revolutions & regime changes. That led to the emergence of Putin 2.0 with his nationalist history of Mother Russia. The Russian people bought it long enough for him to bring us to this point.

But because Putin is such as sh*t leader, instead of taking hillary's hand, and ramping up trade with America? He chose to invade a financially pointless piece of land, and blow billions...that he can't afford to blow..... to do it. He's an idiot, and the Russians have no one to blame but themselves.
hillary's misspelled reset button short circuited when her agente provocateur in Maidan told the EU to F themselves, fomented the overthrow of a Russian friendly regime, & offered EU & NATO membership, prompting Putin to seize the homeport of his Black Sea Fleet before it could became a NATO base.

old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:37 pm It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
So send a letter to Zelensky and Putin. We can't call the shots here, even though you transparently want to blame everyone but Putin for this mess. We don't call the shots over there.

Unless, that is, you're back to playing your game of suggesting we cut Ukraine off from arms, forcing Zelensky's hand.....without saying it outright.
We're already doing that. We're not providing what they will need to take back all the territory they've lost, not to mention regaining Crimea & all of Donbas.

If that's not what you're doing? Stop complaining. We don't call the shots here.
You are hopelessly naive. We are literally calling the shots, ...right down to precision weapons target coordinates.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:10 am
by old salt
Opinion Why a negotiated peace with Putin is the safest way out
by David Von Drehle, Columnist, September 30, 2022

I can’t fault anyone who objects to the idea of a negotiated settlement of the Ukraine war. Russia started with an unprovoked invasion and moved quickly to war crimes. So why do I advocate negotiation if certain terms can be achieved?

Readers angered by my position equate a settlement with Russian President Vladimir Putin to British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain’s 1938 Munich Agreement with Adolf Hitler. By this analogy, “appeasement” of Putin will only encourage him to invade more countries and seize more land, much as Hitler grabbed Poland in 1939, touching off World War II in Europe.

The comparison, once apt, is now past its shelf life. The right time to cite Chamberlain was in February, when the Russian tanks rolled. Good news: The lesson of Munich was emphatically learned. Far from appeasing Putin, the United States and its allies stoutly resisted, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky stepped into the role of Winston Churchill.

Since then, Putin has been dealt a staggering defeat, from which Russia might never recover. The Ukraine invasion will go down in history as a nearly unparalleled blunder. Over seven months of an optional war have gutted the Russian military, sunk the Russian economy, weakened Russia’s partnership with China, alienated Russia’s trading partners, and touched off a stampede by Russia’s best and brightest to escape a dysfunctional country.

Putin’s attempt to snuff out Ukrainian independence has instead fortified and ennobled it. His effort to weaken NATO instead made NATO bigger and stronger than ever. Hitler’s Germany in 1938 was a rising power bristling with military and industrial might. Putin’s Russia is a broken nation in precipitous decline, leading the world in phishing, porn and not much else.

Russia’s decrepitude has been proved to the world so swiftly that comprehension lags behind. For generations, we’ve thought of Russia as a global power. Now we see that the cream of the Russian army can’t advance more than a few kilometers into a neighboring country without losing thousands of tanks, legions of soldiers and numerous generals.

But having seen it, the world won’t forget it. Russia’s days as an aggressor are over.

Critics of a negotiated peace worry about Putin “rebuilding” his aggressive capacity. How can he rebuild if he can’t build in the first place? His army can’t advance into Ukraine, his air force can’t fly over it, and his navy is rightly scared to approach shore. This, after Putin’s much-touted military buildup.

A nation that cannot build an effective military when the proceeds of fuel sales are sluicing in is no threat to “rebuild” when its economy is puny. Remember: Ukraine, an inspiring but subordinate power, wiped out the premier tank division of a Russian army supposedly built on tanks.

And where would Putin’s imaginary force find its generals? What promising young Russian would waste a career on such a feckless, corrupt force — to be known only for indiscriminate bombing, war crimes and incompetence?

The question we face (urgent and dangerous) is: How many more people must die before the fact of Russia’s defeat seeps through the informational dead zone of the Kremlin? Is it wise to accelerate that seepage? The case for negotiation is that a deal might create space for Russia to deflate rather than explode.

I share the moral outrage at Putin’s unprovoked invasion. I appreciate the visceral wish to see this war continue until even Crimea and Donbas — territory the West did not think worth fighting over before February — are under Ukrainian control. I understand the calls for regime change in Moscow.

But when folks tell me to remember 1938, I urge them to remember 2003. Saddam Hussein was a murderous, kleptocratic war criminal, just like Putin. He boasted of his giant army, just like Putin. And when he was toppled precipitously? We reaped a whirlwind of chaos. A similar chaos in nuclear-armed Russia is too dangerous to risk — if it can be avoided.

Moreover, just as the world could not tolerate Putin in Kyiv, neither can it tolerate mayhem among nuclear powers.

Critics warn against giving Putin room to “rebuild” his capacity. What capacity? We’ve seen the fruits of more than a decade of military buildup, funded by Europe’s thirst for Russian gas. You can’t rebuild what never was.

Vast in resources, deep in culture, Russia is perpetually poor when it comes to government. Nothing better than Putin appears to be waiting in the wings. So I reluctantly support a negotiated settlement, with lines limited to the pre-February status quo, if we can get that deal, to give time for the next step to emerge. It is the safest way out: for Ukrainians, for Russians and for the rest of us.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:51 am
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Rah. Rah. Let's inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia & ensure future centuries of enmity toward the West, ...& the US in particular.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
Putin is a war criminal who has threatened to use nuclear weapons and has delusions of becoming the next Peter the Great. He has indiscriminately murdered Ukrainian civilians.

Do you really think someone worse will come to power?

You keep citing NATO expansion as the reason for this more dangerous iteration of Putin.

Have you ever considered the far more likely scenario that Russia and Putin’s expansionist ambitions drove much of the NATO expansion? After Russia’s multiple military interventions in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, and many other nations, do you really think any neighboring nation has any reason to trust Russia or Putin?

How bad does a Russian leader have to be to drive Sweden and Finland to seek NATO membership?

And it is completely delusional to think Putin is in any way “contained.” Putin has repeatedly violated any treaty he has signed. If he signs any “peace” agreement with Ukraine, he will break it as soon as he thinks he can force regime change in Ukraine.

Putin is not going to stop his invasions of neighbors until he is finally and completely defeated.

Putin must not be appeased … ever.

DocBarrister

Ukrainian Forces Make Advances in South

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:49 am
by DocBarrister
Looks like Ukraine is making good progress in the South as well. Could be the beginning of a wider collapse of Russian forces in Ukraine.

KYIV, Oct 3 (Reuters) - Ukrainian forces were reported to be recapturing towns along the west bank of the Dnipro River in southern Ukraine on Monday, with Moscow forced to yield territory along a second major front line just days after claiming to have annexed it.

The scale of the Ukrainian advance was unconfirmed, with Kyiv maintaining all but complete silence about the situation in the area. But Russian military bloggers described a Ukrainian tank advance through dozens of kilometers of territory along the bank of the river.

… Rob Lee, a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute think-tank, cited Russian bloggers as reporting their forces falling back as far as Dudchany - 40 km (25 miles) downriver from where they had opposed Ukrainian troops a day earlier.

… "When this many Russian channels are sounding the alarm, it usually means they're in trouble," he wrote on Twitter.

A Ukrainian advance along the Dnipro river could trap thousands of Russian troops on the far side, cut off from all supplies. The river is enormously wide, and Ukraine has already destroyed the major crossings.

The reports were the first to describe a rapid Ukrainian advance in the south of the country since the war began, and come just a day after Ukraine routed Russian troops in a major bastion, Lyman, on the opposite end of the front in the east.


https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uk ... 022-10-02/

DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:24 am
by old salt
DocBarrister wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:51 am
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Rah. Rah. Let's inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia & ensure future centuries of enmity toward the West, ...& the US in particular.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
Putin is a war criminal who has threatened to use nuclear weapons and has delusions of becoming the next Peter the Great. He has indiscriminately murdered Ukrainian civilians. No question. How do you intend to bring him to justice ?

Do you really think someone worse will come to power?
Someone at least as bad but not as smart or as pragmatic. Who do you think has been supporting Putin or doing his bidding ?

You keep citing NATO expansion as the reason for this more dangerous iteration of Putin.
It's not THE reason but it is one of the causal factors.

Have you ever considered the far more likely scenario that Russia and Putin’s expansionist ambitions drove much of the NATO expansion? After Russia’s multiple military interventions in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, and many other nations, do you really think any neighboring nation has any reason to trust Russia or Putin? Chechnya is part of Russia, NATO expansion was complete before Georgia. It was the threats to expand NATO to Georgia & Ukraine which gave Putin the excuse to seize territory.

How bad does a Russian leader have to be to drive Sweden and Finland to seek NATO membership?


And it is completely delusional to think Putin is in any way “contained.” Putin has repeatedly violated any treaty he has signed. If he signs any “peace” agreement with Ukraine, he will break it as soon as he thinks he can force regime change in Ukraine.
Putin does not have the military capacity to take more territory in any country prepared to defend itself, as are all NATO members, current & prospective. On which NATO member's borders does he have access to mass forces as he did against Ukraine & what NATO opposition would he face across the border ?

Putin is not going to stop his invasions of neighbors until he is finally and completely defeated.
He has been defeated in conventional military terms. He can only threaten irregular & nuclear warfare & he is at a disadvantage there as well.

Putin must not be appeased … ever.
Ukraine was unprepared to defend their borders. Yet they have fought bravely, have won the admiration of the world, & have guaranteed the survival of their nation & earned invitations into the EU & western alliances.
They should declare victory, stop the carnage, bring their citizens home & start rebuilding their country while they still have the support of western allies who have not (yet) been more seriously impacted by continuing the conflict.


DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:43 am
by Kismet
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:14 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:35 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:16 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
It’s the people Russia now holds.
Most of them have been living under Russian rule since 2014. The newly taken territory has been devastated. Those who have not already fled can be resettled in other areas of Ukraine or stay & live as Russians, as the residents of Crimea & the separatist controlled areas of the Donbas have.
It's not perfect but it's similar to the NATO engineered settlements in the Balkans, which are still functional.
Un huh.
Sure thing Einstein. :oops:
As for downplaying the CPAC, Tucker & Tulsi connection, do you stand when they play the Russian national anthem? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But sure, the Ukrainians can trust the Rooskies to negotiate honestly :oops: :oops: Funny how you beef all the time about how corrupt the Ukrainians but seem to give the Russians a pass. How about this one?

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukrai ... osition_01

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:35 am
by Typical Lax Dad
Kismet wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:43 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:14 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:35 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:16 pm
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
It’s the people Russia now holds.
Most of them have been living under Russian rule since 2014. The newly taken territory has been devastated. Those who have not already fled can be resettled in other areas of Ukraine or stay & live as Russians, as the residents of Crimea & the separatist controlled areas of the Donbas have.
It's not perfect but it's similar to the NATO engineered settlements in the Balkans, which are still functional.
Un huh.
Sure thing Einstein. :oops:
As for downplaying the CPAC, Tucker & Tulsi connection, do you stand when they play the Russian national anthem? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:53 am
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:24 am
DocBarrister wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:51 am
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:15 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:54 pm The world doesn’t need any more Putin apologists. What the world needs is a humiliating defeat of Russia in Ukraine and the eventual demise of Putin and his criminal regime.

DocBarrister
...& then what ? Who takes power in Russia ? How do you ensure whoever comes next is not even worse ? Do you expect our Ukrainian proxy army to march to Moscow & occupy the Kremlin ? ...or are you counting on the US & (maybe) NATO doing that ?
Look at what emerged from our attempt to recast the USSR.

Rah. Rah. Let's inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia & ensure future centuries of enmity toward the West, ...& the US in particular.

Bad as he is, Putin is still contained. He does not have the military capacity to take Ukraine, let alone territory in his NATO neighbors.
Ukraine's independence & continued existence is now secured. Crimea, the Donbas & the land bridge connecting them are historically part of Russia.

It's not worth continuing this war to take back ALL of the territory the Russian's now hold. This could be settled along sensible secure borders which allow both nations to co-exist & prosper. Ukraine would still be a US military ally -- a formidable buffer state to deter any further Russian adventurism.
Putin is a war criminal who has threatened to use nuclear weapons and has delusions of becoming the next Peter the Great. He has indiscriminately murdered Ukrainian civilians. No question. How do you intend to bring him to justice ?

Do you really think someone worse will come to power?
Someone at least as bad but not as smart or as pragmatic. Who do you think has been supporting Putin or doing his bidding ?

You keep citing NATO expansion as the reason for this more dangerous iteration of Putin.
It's not THE reason but it is one of the causal factors.

Have you ever considered the far more likely scenario that Russia and Putin’s expansionist ambitions drove much of the NATO expansion? After Russia’s multiple military interventions in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, and many other nations, do you really think any neighboring nation has any reason to trust Russia or Putin? Chechnya is part of Russia, NATO expansion was complete before Georgia. It was the threats to expand NATO to Georgia & Ukraine which gave Putin the excuse to seize territory.

How bad does a Russian leader have to be to drive Sweden and Finland to seek NATO membership?


And it is completely delusional to think Putin is in any way “contained.” Putin has repeatedly violated any treaty he has signed. If he signs any “peace” agreement with Ukraine, he will break it as soon as he thinks he can force regime change in Ukraine.
Putin does not have the military capacity to take more territory in any country prepared to defend itself, as are all NATO members, current & prospective. On which NATO member's borders does he have access to mass forces as he did against Ukraine & what NATO opposition would he face across the border ?

Putin is not going to stop his invasions of neighbors until he is finally and completely defeated.
He has been defeated in conventional military terms. He can only threaten irregular & nuclear warfare & he is at a disadvantage there as well.

Putin must not be appeased … ever.
Ukraine was unprepared to defend their borders. Yet they have fought bravely, have won the admiration of the world, & have guaranteed the survival of their nation & earned invitations into the EU & western alliances.
They should declare victory, stop the carnage, bring their citizens home & start rebuilding their country while they still have the support of western allies who have not (yet) been more seriously impacted by continuing the conflict.


DocBarrister
There is nothing “smart” or “pragmatic” about Putin. He’s a malignant, ignorant thug who has brought his nation to the brink of ruin.

But it’s not just Putin. Chechnya actually achieved independence after the first Chechen war in the mid-1990s. But Russia would not let go and essentially conquered Chechnya in the second Chechen war.

That’s a consistent pattern with Russia … even if an initial war does not succeed, Russia will attack again.

Putin will not honor any peace that doesn’t include regime change in Ukraine.

Putin will not engage in honest negotiations. To think otherwise is merely wishful thinking.

So why waste the time and effort? Why waste the time and effort to even discuss the non-existent option?

Putin and Russia must first lose in Ukraine. Then and only then will any sort of real peace be possible.

DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:16 am
by Farfromgeneva
old salt wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:10 am
Opinion Why a negotiated peace with Putin is the safest way out
by David Von Drehle, Columnist, September 30, 2022

I can’t fault anyone who objects to the idea of a negotiated settlement of the Ukraine war. Russia started with an unprovoked invasion and moved quickly to war crimes. So why do I advocate negotiation if certain terms can be achieved?

Readers angered by my position equate a settlement with Russian President Vladimir Putin to British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain’s 1938 Munich Agreement with Adolf Hitler. By this analogy, “appeasement” of Putin will only encourage him to invade more countries and seize more land, much as Hitler grabbed Poland in 1939, touching off World War II in Europe.

The comparison, once apt, is now past its shelf life. The right time to cite Chamberlain was in February, when the Russian tanks rolled. Good news: The lesson of Munich was emphatically learned. Far from appeasing Putin, the United States and its allies stoutly resisted, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky stepped into the role of Winston Churchill.

Since then, Putin has been dealt a staggering defeat, from which Russia might never recover. The Ukraine invasion will go down in history as a nearly unparalleled blunder. Over seven months of an optional war have gutted the Russian military, sunk the Russian economy, weakened Russia’s partnership with China, alienated Russia’s trading partners, and touched off a stampede by Russia’s best and brightest to escape a dysfunctional country.

Putin’s attempt to snuff out Ukrainian independence has instead fortified and ennobled it. His effort to weaken NATO instead made NATO bigger and stronger than ever. Hitler’s Germany in 1938 was a rising power bristling with military and industrial might. Putin’s Russia is a broken nation in precipitous decline, leading the world in phishing, porn and not much else.

Russia’s decrepitude has been proved to the world so swiftly that comprehension lags behind. For generations, we’ve thought of Russia as a global power. Now we see that the cream of the Russian army can’t advance more than a few kilometers into a neighboring country without losing thousands of tanks, legions of soldiers and numerous generals.

But having seen it, the world won’t forget it. Russia’s days as an aggressor are over.

Critics of a negotiated peace worry about Putin “rebuilding” his aggressive capacity. How can he rebuild if he can’t build in the first place? His army can’t advance into Ukraine, his air force can’t fly over it, and his navy is rightly scared to approach shore. This, after Putin’s much-touted military buildup.

A nation that cannot build an effective military when the proceeds of fuel sales are sluicing in is no threat to “rebuild” when its economy is puny. Remember: Ukraine, an inspiring but subordinate power, wiped out the premier tank division of a Russian army supposedly built on tanks.

And where would Putin’s imaginary force find its generals? What promising young Russian would waste a career on such a feckless, corrupt force — to be known only for indiscriminate bombing, war crimes and incompetence?

The question we face (urgent and dangerous) is: How many more people must die before the fact of Russia’s defeat seeps through the informational dead zone of the Kremlin? Is it wise to accelerate that seepage? The case for negotiation is that a deal might create space for Russia to deflate rather than explode.

I share the moral outrage at Putin’s unprovoked invasion. I appreciate the visceral wish to see this war continue until even Crimea and Donbas — territory the West did not think worth fighting over before February — are under Ukrainian control. I understand the calls for regime change in Moscow.

But when folks tell me to remember 1938, I urge them to remember 2003. Saddam Hussein was a murderous, kleptocratic war criminal, just like Putin. He boasted of his giant army, just like Putin. And when he was toppled precipitously? We reaped a whirlwind of chaos. A similar chaos in nuclear-armed Russia is too dangerous to risk — if it can be avoided.

Moreover, just as the world could not tolerate Putin in Kyiv, neither can it tolerate mayhem among nuclear powers.

Critics warn against giving Putin room to “rebuild” his capacity. What capacity? We’ve seen the fruits of more than a decade of military buildup, funded by Europe’s thirst for Russian gas. You can’t rebuild what never was.

Vast in resources, deep in culture, Russia is perpetually poor when it comes to government. Nothing better than Putin appears to be waiting in the wings. So I reluctantly support a negotiated settlement, with lines limited to the pre-February status quo, if we can get that deal, to give time for the next step to emerge. It is the safest way out: for Ukrainians, for Russians and for the rest of us.
What do you think of this opinion piece specifically? What do you specifically agree with and do not and why? Just throwing the red print up there doesn’t solve the problem of your playing games with deniability. Use your voice and take a stand like a man.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:19 am
by Farfromgeneva
old salt wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:55 pm
Kismet wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:42 am More typical right wing propaganda. Demonize the EUro allies (except fascist types in Hungary and Italy) and congratulate the Rooskies. Must be good to be with the Tucker & Tulsi crowd primetime on RT. :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: You all never seem to disappoint in this regard. It's really mystifying. Stick with Friedman & the NYT. They never get it wrong.

CPAC had to take down a pro-Russian tweet over the weekend that looked like it was written by the Kremlin featuring waving Russian flags. When do you begin to advocate to Orange Cheato to mediate? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah genius. Focus on the trivial background noise.

It was reported today that Russian dead in Ukraine to date are over 62 000 not to mention lost equipment and ammunition. They have not conscripted soldiers since WWII. ...& look at what it's costing the US taxpayer to take that old Soviet junk out of the fight. Meanwhile, we're giving new generations of Russians reasons to hate the USA for meddling in their back yard from halfway around the world. They're not all able to flee the draft.
You throw out trivial noise in knowledge specific but value devoid bits all the time. So do you like Kismets effort and applauding it or complaining about your own behavior?

Of course the real value goes beyond domain knowledge and into ability to understand.