Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:53 pm
Same Party, Different House
https://fanlax.com/forum/
Great news. So the war is over, since Putin already invaded Ukraine. Hooray!!old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pmHe did. Obama was President in 2014 when Russia seized Ukraine & a big chunk of the Donbas.a fan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:45 amYeah, that's not what I asked. Why didn't Putin invade Ukraine under Obama?Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:44 amHe invaded Georgia under Obama.a fan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:42 amEssexfenwick wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Once Putin felt safe to invade when Trump wasn’t running things he did.You understand that these two statements don't go together, right? Now remember, Trump is the guy who had the slogan "America First". I'm assuming you know what that slogan meant, yeah?Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Putin isn’t going to “lose”. Any logical person knew that from the beginning. It’s either victory or a tie with the world all dead.
To wit: what is you think Trump would have done if Putin had invaded Ukraine on his watch?
No. He didn't. Obama and Democrats are weak, right? So explain why Putin didn't simply invade Ukraine when Obama was in charge.
Did he lose the key fob for his tank?
And what would Trump have done had Putin invaded? Pretty simple questions, Essex.
Donbas and Crimea are ethnically and culturally and otherally Russian from what I've learned here. It wasn't an invasion, but rather a liberation and retaking what was rightfully the USSR's or Russias or something.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pmHe did. Obama was President in 2014 when Russia seized Ukraine & a big chunk of the Donbas.a fan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:45 amYeah, that's not what I asked. Why didn't Putin invade Ukraine under Obama?Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:44 amHe invaded Georgia under Obama.a fan wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:42 amEssexfenwick wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Once Putin felt safe to invade when Trump wasn’t running things he did.You understand that these two statements don't go together, right? Now remember, Trump is the guy who had the slogan "America First". I'm assuming you know what that slogan meant, yeah?Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Putin isn’t going to “lose”. Any logical person knew that from the beginning. It’s either victory or a tie with the world all dead.
To wit: what is you think Trump would have done if Putin had invaded Ukraine on his watch?
No. He didn't. Obama and Democrats are weak, right? So explain why Putin didn't simply invade Ukraine when Obama was in charge.
Did he lose the key fob for his tank?
And what would Trump have done had Putin invaded? Pretty simple questions, Essex.
The corrupt, negligent Ukrainians failed to deter it & defend against it.
You do understand that Putin won’t stop the invasion of Ukraine until he achieves regime change there and effectively controls the entire nation of Ukraine?old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 amThat's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pmI’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pmInsanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pmRussia must lose this war.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must be humiliated in defeat.
Russia must suffer for a long time.
Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.
DocBarrister
DocBarrister
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
Better yet we could compose a large book of all of your financial wisdom and wheeling and dealing that you have posted here on this forum. Their attempt at reading all of your wisdom would more than likely have put them into a catatonic state. Who needs Rambo types when we have you??? Your detrimental affect is more deadly and we don't have to fire a shot.Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:31 amMaybe we should send all the out of touch old rambos over there since they act like they have all the answers when in fact their frightened little girls about their own lives and futures. Fear is a powerful tool in international relations apparently…cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:15 pmI guess these modern day Russians should be grateful they were not flipping off Stalin. Ole Joe would have dragged their their asses out into the middle of nowhere and executed them with no remorse. Vlad is nothing like his hero. Of course the jury is still out as to how Putin will deal with these rebellious rascals. If he decides to go Stalin on their asses it will get really ugly really quick. Maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center can talk some sense into Vlad...a fan wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:09 pmYou think the Russian people are a monolith? Young Russians don't understand that Putin is yet another ***hole Russian fascist that's kept the Russian people away from the 1st world for over 100 years now?
Never said it would----you're putting words in my mouth, my man. Should I follow your lead and throw a hissy fit?
What I said was that they couldn't afford to do what they were trying to do.
Sure they are, OS. What was Russia's GDP when Putin took office? And what's it at now? And before the invasion, how many military assets did Russia have?
And how many do they have now, OS? Want me to post a pic of a Russian tank burned to a crisp?
Good. It's killing my competitors. I'm doing great, thank you for asking. That's what happens when you spend your career making your operations more financially and environmentally stable. When energy prices go up? My competitors (most of them), who don't believe in such things, take it in the pants.
Riiiiiight. Russia is thumbs up awesome right now, OS. What's your 20 year plan for Russia? Their armies are in tatters. How many missiles do they have left, OS.
Insults?
Alright. I typed out my insult. And deleted it. Out of my system now and we can move on.
No. He isn't. And I have no idea why it is that you keep projecting this nonsense on to Putin. This has nothing to do with Russian history.
Wait----I'm wrong: it has to do with Russian history. And by that I mean this is yet another Russian Fascist leader that simply trying to hold on to power. That's it. That's all this is about. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Anything else is overcomplicating what Putin has done....trying to put a square peg in a round hole, attempting to apply rationality to Putin's choices.
There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I never said Putin wasn't dangerous. Or couldn't use nukes. Or couldn't kill hundreds of thousands of people if he chose to do so. I also never said I wasn't terrified of what Putin might do. I am indeed, scared.
What I said was---how does Putin expect to hold whatever territory he has gained?
And those piles of rubble as Putin hits civilian infrastructure? What money do you think Putin has to fix that damage, assuming he takes over that land?
The hilarious thing is: you see the light, and understand money when we're discussing America sending money to Ukraine. You think we can't spare that money. Yet at the same time? You think Putin is just rolling in cash, and invading Ukraine costs Putin nothing.
ardilla secreta wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.
A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other
Well, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pmUkraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 amYup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 amThat's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pmI’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pmInsanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pmRussia must lose this war.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must be humiliated in defeat.
Russia must suffer for a long time.
Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.
DocBarrister
DocBarrister
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
and NATO's...
The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...
got it.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
ardilla secreta wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.
A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other
I can see why you'd think Russia's draft enforcement is the same as what you experienced during the Vietnam war era, but it isn't.Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:36 amardilla secreta wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.
A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other
That's what CONservatives used to call terrorism when we had protests against war and the draft in the US. I'm sure they object just as strenuously about this type of misbehavior in Russia. Yeah, I'm sure.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:56 am
I can see why you'd think Russia's draft enforcement is the same as what you experienced during the Vietnam war era, but it isn't.
I don't expect to convince you though.
What's interesting to me right now is that supposed "conservatives" are among those whose sympathies clearly lie with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They provide apologia and shade for Putin, scorn and disdain for Ukraine's sovereignty, and favor white nationalism wherever it pops it head up from under the rocks of history.
Old Jack Ryan.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 amWell, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pmUkraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 amYup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 amThat's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pmI’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pmInsanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pmRussia must lose this war.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must be humiliated in defeat.
Russia must suffer for a long time.
Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.
DocBarrister
DocBarrister
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
and NATO's...
The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...
got it.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
I'm not going to argue about the hypocrisy...plenty of it.Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:07 amMDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:56 am
I can see why you'd think Russia's draft enforcement is the same as what you experienced during the Vietnam war era, but it isn't.
I don't expect to convince you though.
What's interesting to me right now is that supposed "conservatives" are among those whose sympathies clearly lie with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They provide apologia and shade for Putin, scorn and disdain for Ukraine's sovereignty, and favor white nationalism wherever it pops it head up from under the rocks of history.
CONS hate domestic terrorism so they should be all up in arms over this unhappy bit of news. So far they are silent. There is also talk of Russians fleeing the military draft in numbers far larger than they have done in the past. Recall that over the years I have mentioned knowing Russian draft dodgers in NYC (along with Israelis who use our shores to escape the draft in that country). As always, CONS never object to giving sanctuary to people like them. Their only objection is when Americans flee to Canada. This shows that their "principles" are nothing more than shtt on paper.
Vladimir Putin just granted Russian citizenship to former US security contractor Edward Snowden. Another anti deep-staterMDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 amWell, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pmUkraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 amYup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 amThat's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pmI’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pmInsanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pmRussia must lose this war.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must be humiliated in defeat.
Russia must suffer for a long time.
Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.
DocBarrister
DocBarrister
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
and NATO's...
The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...
got it.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
So, to old salt …MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 amWell, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pmUkraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 amYup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 amThat's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pmI’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pmInsanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".DocBarrister wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pmRussia must lose this war.old salt wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must be humiliated in defeat.
Russia must suffer for a long time.
Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.
Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.
DocBarrister
DocBarrister
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
and NATO's...
The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...
got it.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am
I'm not going to argue about the hypocrisy...plenty of it.
But I don't think the "conservatives" of today are actually "conservative" much less actually "American", rather their sympathies lie with white nationalism. Radically so.
To be clear, there are a whole bunch of actual conservatives who are NOT these MAGA, white nationalist or Qanon radicals.Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:32 pmMDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am
I'm not going to argue about the hypocrisy...plenty of it.
But I don't think the "conservatives" of today are actually "conservative" much less actually "American", rather their sympathies lie with white nationalism. Radically so.
~ hypocrisy ~
Plenty of it. Nothing but total hypocrisy. Today, tomorrow, forever. Nothing of principle to these CONservatives. So full of schitt that they could fertilize a dozen deserts. Indeed, radically so.