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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:53 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:50 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:18 pm Recent video footage of Russian Army

...that could also be the German economy this winter.
Could be…..you hope so.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:53 pm
by Typical Lax Dad

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:12 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:45 am
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:44 am
a fan wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:42 am
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Once Putin felt safe to invade when Trump wasn’t running things he did.
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Putin isn’t going to “lose”. Any logical person knew that from the beginning. It’s either victory or a tie with the world all dead.
You understand that these two statements don't go together, right? Now remember, Trump is the guy who had the slogan "America First". I'm assuming you know what that slogan meant, yeah?

To wit: what is you think Trump would have done if Putin had invaded Ukraine on his watch?
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Did it under Obama too.
No. He didn't. Obama and Democrats are weak, right? So explain why Putin didn't simply invade Ukraine when Obama was in charge.

Did he lose the key fob for his tank?
He invaded Georgia under Obama.
:lol: Yeah, that's not what I asked. Why didn't Putin invade Ukraine under Obama?

And what would Trump have done had Putin invaded? Pretty simple questions, Essex.
He did. Obama was President in 2014 when Russia seized Ukraine & a big chunk of the Donbas.
Great news. So the war is over, since Putin already invaded Ukraine. Hooray!!

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:55 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:42 pm
a fan wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:45 am
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:44 am
a fan wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:42 am
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Once Putin felt safe to invade when Trump wasn’t running things he did.
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Putin isn’t going to “lose”. Any logical person knew that from the beginning. It’s either victory or a tie with the world all dead.
You understand that these two statements don't go together, right? Now remember, Trump is the guy who had the slogan "America First". I'm assuming you know what that slogan meant, yeah?

To wit: what is you think Trump would have done if Putin had invaded Ukraine on his watch?
Essexfenwick wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:42 am Did it under Obama too.
No. He didn't. Obama and Democrats are weak, right? So explain why Putin didn't simply invade Ukraine when Obama was in charge.

Did he lose the key fob for his tank?
He invaded Georgia under Obama.
:lol: Yeah, that's not what I asked. Why didn't Putin invade Ukraine under Obama?

And what would Trump have done had Putin invaded? Pretty simple questions, Essex.
He did. Obama was President in 2014 when Russia seized Ukraine & a big chunk of the Donbas.
The corrupt, negligent Ukrainians failed to deter it & defend against it.
Donbas and Crimea are ethnically and culturally and otherally Russian from what I've learned here. It wasn't an invasion, but rather a liberation and retaking what was rightfully the USSR's or Russias or something.

Ukraine didn't change any since then, so they are responsible for being invaded the first time in 2022.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:52 pm
by Brooklyn
Interestingly, women are leaving Ukraine to escape the invasion while men are escaping Russia to avoid fighting in it.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:52 am
by Seacoaster(1)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... es-nasams/

Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the conversation with Ukraine over the supply of U.S. weapons to aid the country’s war efforts is “ongoing,” notably regarding a request from Kyiv for Army Tactical Missile Systems, or ATACMS, as the surface-to-surface missiles are commonly known.

“Whatever they put on the table is something we’re going to look at, to consider, and we’re going to give them our best judgment about what can be effective for them,” Blinken said in an interview with “60 Minutes.”

The United States so far has made 20 transfers of defense equipment valued at billions of dollars, Blinken said, including antitank and antiaircraft weapons that helped repel Russian forces during their attempt to seize the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv.

“At every step of the way, we have worked to make sure that the Ukrainians had in their hands what they needed to defend themselves,” Blinken said. He described it as an “ongoing conversation” about what Ukraine needs at any given moment, adding: “We adjust as we go along.”

“It’s not just having the weapons in hand; you’ve got to know how to use them, and that requires training,” he said.

Blinken’s interview aired Sunday, the same day that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Ukraine had received sophisticated ground-based air defense systems from the United States. Kyiv had long requested the National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, known as NASAMS. The transfer was approved by Washington late last month and was part of an aid package announced in July.

A defense official said at the time that they would help Ukraine transition away from a Soviet type of air defense system to a modern system used by NATO.

The most advanced U.S.-provided system so far, the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, commonly known as HIMARS, has changed the battle on Ukraine’s front lines. It has the longest range of Ukraine’s ground weapons, nearly 50 miles, allowing Kyiv’s military to precisely strike Russian targets without endangering its own civilians in occupied territories.

Ukrainian officials lobbied for the HIMARS weapons system for two months before the transfer was approved — only on the grounds that Kyiv would not use it to launch cross-border attacks into Russia.

The ATACMS is a tactical missile with an even longer range than those currently being fired from HIMARS launchers — some 180 miles, according to manufacturer Lockheed Martin, giving Ukraine the technical capability to strike deep into Russia.

Russia’s Foreign Ministry said earlier this month that supplying longer-range weapons would cross a “red line,” drawing the United States into the conflict.

Colin Kahl, the U.S. undersecretary of defense for policy, said last month that Ukraine didn’t require ATACMS to strike targets “that are directly relevant to the current fight.”

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:30 am
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 am
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must lose this war.

Russia must be humiliated in defeat.

Russia must suffer for a long time.

Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.

DocBarrister
Insanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".
I’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.

DocBarrister
That's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
You do understand that Putin won’t stop the invasion of Ukraine until he achieves regime change there and effectively controls the entire nation of Ukraine?

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-still-s ... 8205?amp=1

You do understand that, don’t you.

And Ukraine is more than keeping up its end of the bargain in fighting Putin’s imperialism and (so far) preventing a more wide spread war.

Appeasement didn’t work in 1939 and it won’t work now.

Putin and Russia must lose this war in order for this war to truly end.

DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am
by ardilla secreta
I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.

A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:42 am
by cradleandshoot
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:31 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:15 pm
a fan wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:09 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am That all makes sense to Americans, given our history & perspective.
It does not take root with the Russian people, given their history & perspective.
You think the Russian people are a monolith? Young Russians don't understand that Putin is yet another ***hole Russian fascist that's kept the Russian people away from the 1st world for over 100 years now?
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am All your prattle about Russia's GDP did not prevent them from invading Ukraine
Never said it would----you're putting words in my mouth, my man. Should I follow your lead and throw a hissy fit?

What I said was that they couldn't afford to do what they were trying to do.
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am ...they're still awash in cash from energy sales at crisis prices.
:lol: Sure they are, OS. What was Russia's GDP when Putin took office? And what's it at now? And before the invasion, how many military assets did Russia have?

And how many do they have now, OS? Want me to post a pic of a Russian tank burned to a crisp?
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am How's your 401k doing ? How 'bout the price of your supplies & shipping ?
Good. It's killing my competitors. I'm doing great, thank you for asking. That's what happens when you spend your career making your operations more financially and environmentally stable. When energy prices go up? My competitors (most of them), who don't believe in such things, take it in the pants.
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am This war is producing a global recession, hurting Europe & the US a lot more than Russia.
:lol: Riiiiiight. Russia is thumbs up awesome right now, OS. What's your 20 year plan for Russia? Their armies are in tatters. How many missiles do they have left, OS.
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am You think this is all a joke that validates your liberal schoolboy reading of history.
Insults?



Alright. I typed out my insult. And deleted it. Out of my system now and we can move on.
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am Putin is writing history, in blood, from a different perspective.
No. He isn't. And I have no idea why it is that you keep projecting this nonsense on to Putin. This has nothing to do with Russian history.

Wait----I'm wrong: it has to do with Russian history. And by that I mean this is yet another Russian Fascist leader that simply trying to hold on to power. That's it. That's all this is about. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Anything else is overcomplicating what Putin has done....trying to put a square peg in a round hole, attempting to apply rationality to Putin's choices.
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:04 am Keep laughing, you will need a morbid sense of humor before this is over.
Russia is mobilizing, full scale, for the first time since WW II. We minimize that at our own peril.
Russia is mobilizing for war & to you, it's just a stupid political debate.
There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I never said Putin wasn't dangerous. Or couldn't use nukes. Or couldn't kill hundreds of thousands of people if he chose to do so. I also never said I wasn't terrified of what Putin might do. I am indeed, scared.

What I said was---how does Putin expect to hold whatever territory he has gained?

And those piles of rubble as Putin hits civilian infrastructure? What money do you think Putin has to fix that damage, assuming he takes over that land?

The hilarious thing is: you see the light, and understand money when we're discussing America sending money to Ukraine. You think we can't spare that money. Yet at the same time? You think Putin is just rolling in cash, and invading Ukraine costs Putin nothing. :roll:
I guess these modern day Russians should be grateful they were not flipping off Stalin. Ole Joe would have dragged their their asses out into the middle of nowhere and executed them with no remorse. Vlad is nothing like his hero. Of course the jury is still out as to how Putin will deal with these rebellious rascals. If he decides to go Stalin on their asses it will get really ugly really quick. Maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center can talk some sense into Vlad... :roll:
Maybe we should send all the out of touch old rambos over there since they act like they have all the answers when in fact their frightened little girls about their own lives and futures. Fear is a powerful tool in international relations apparently…
Better yet we could compose a large book of all of your financial wisdom and wheeling and dealing that you have posted here on this forum. Their attempt at reading all of your wisdom would more than likely have put them into a catatonic state. Who needs Rambo types when we have you??? Your detrimental affect is more deadly and we don't have to fire a shot.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:21 am
by Typical Lax Dad
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.

A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other
:lol: :lol:

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 am
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must lose this war.

Russia must be humiliated in defeat.

Russia must suffer for a long time.

Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.

DocBarrister
Insanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".
I’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.

DocBarrister
That's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
Yup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.

and NATO's...

The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...

got it.
Ukraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
Well, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:36 am
by Brooklyn
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.

A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other

That's what CONservatives used to call terrorism when we had protests against war and the draft in the US. I'm sure they object just as strenuously about this type of misbehavior in Russia. Yeah, I'm sure.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:56 am
by MDlaxfan76
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:36 am
ardilla secreta wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:34 am I imagine we’ll be seeing more of this…
Russia: man shoots commander drafting residents for war in Ukraine
According to a witness, the man shot the military commandant after he had given a “clumsy” pep talk for the men to go and fight in Ukraine. “Nobody is going to go anywhere,” the man said moments before opening fire, a witness told the Baikal People news outlet.

A half-dozen draft centres have been torched in arson attacks in the last week, and police made hundreds of arrests across the country in order to disperse local protests sparked by the announcement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... SApp_Other

That's what CONservatives used to call terrorism when we had protests against war and the draft in the US. I'm sure they object just as strenuously about this type of misbehavior in Russia. Yeah, I'm sure.
I can see why you'd think Russia's draft enforcement is the same as what you experienced during the Vietnam war era, but it isn't.

I don't expect to convince you though.

What's interesting to me right now is that supposed "conservatives" are among those whose sympathies clearly lie with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They provide apologia and shade for Putin, scorn and disdain for Ukraine's sovereignty, and favor white nationalism wherever it pops it head up from under the rocks of history.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:07 am
by Brooklyn
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:56 am
I can see why you'd think Russia's draft enforcement is the same as what you experienced during the Vietnam war era, but it isn't.

I don't expect to convince you though.

What's interesting to me right now is that supposed "conservatives" are among those whose sympathies clearly lie with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They provide apologia and shade for Putin, scorn and disdain for Ukraine's sovereignty, and favor white nationalism wherever it pops it head up from under the rocks of history.

CONS hate domestic terrorism so they should be all up in arms over this unhappy bit of news. So far they are silent. There is also talk of Russians fleeing the military draft in numbers far larger than they have done in the past. Recall that over the years I have mentioned knowing Russian draft dodgers in NYC (along with Israelis who use our shores to escape the draft in that country). As always, CONS never object to giving sanctuary to people like them. Their only objection is when Americans flee to Canada. This shows that their "principles" are nothing more than shtt on paper.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:08 am
by Typical Lax Dad
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 am
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must lose this war.

Russia must be humiliated in defeat.

Russia must suffer for a long time.

Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.

DocBarrister
Insanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".
I’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.

DocBarrister
That's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
Yup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.

and NATO's...

The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...

got it.
Ukraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
Well, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.
Old Jack Ryan.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am
by MDlaxfan76
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:07 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:56 am
I can see why you'd think Russia's draft enforcement is the same as what you experienced during the Vietnam war era, but it isn't.

I don't expect to convince you though.

What's interesting to me right now is that supposed "conservatives" are among those whose sympathies clearly lie with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. They provide apologia and shade for Putin, scorn and disdain for Ukraine's sovereignty, and favor white nationalism wherever it pops it head up from under the rocks of history.

CONS hate domestic terrorism so they should be all up in arms over this unhappy bit of news. So far they are silent. There is also talk of Russians fleeing the military draft in numbers far larger than they have done in the past. Recall that over the years I have mentioned knowing Russian draft dodgers in NYC (along with Israelis who use our shores to escape the draft in that country). As always, CONS never object to giving sanctuary to people like them. Their only objection is when Americans flee to Canada. This shows that their "principles" are nothing more than shtt on paper.
I'm not going to argue about the hypocrisy...plenty of it.

But I don't think the "conservatives" of today are actually "conservative" much less actually "American", rather their sympathies lie with white nationalism. Radically so.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:10 pm
by Kismet
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 am
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must lose this war.

Russia must be humiliated in defeat.

Russia must suffer for a long time.

Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.

DocBarrister
Insanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".
I’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.

DocBarrister
That's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
Yup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.

and NATO's...

The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...

got it.
Ukraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
Well, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.
Vladimir Putin just granted Russian citizenship to former US security contractor Edward Snowden. Another anti deep-stater :oops:

Wonder if he's exempt from conscription? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:30 pm
by DocBarrister
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:01 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:53 am
old salt wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:12 am
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:04 pm
DocBarrister wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:00 pm
old salt wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 9:49 pm The Russians who do the fighting & dying are not the city kids & the middle class kids.
Just like in the US, they're the poor kids & the country kids.
Zelensky had to trick his conscripts into staying home by assuring them there would be no invasion,
then closing the border to keep military age males from departing.
This is a senseless war, causing a global recession, being funded by US taxpayers, to determine who controls Crimea & the corridor connecting it to Mother Russia & guaranteeing Russian access to the Black Sea. It's as senseless as the last CrImean War was.
Russians have long memories. They won't soon forget the part the US is playing in generating their casualties.
Our support of our Ukrainian proxies has brought us to the brink of nuclear war with Russia, ...for what vital US interest ?
None of us are qualified to predict what Putin will do. Our leaders & their advisors don't have a reassuring track record in that regard.
Russia must lose this war.

Russia must be humiliated in defeat.

Russia must suffer for a long time.

Appeasement, which is precisely what you are proposing, will not stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will stop Putin’s wars.

Only a complete defeat of Russia will end Putin.

DocBarrister
Insanity. Not worth the risk, or even the cost of "victory".
I’m sure Neville Chamberlain thought the same.

DocBarrister
That's a historically stupid analogy. In 1939, there was no NATO.
We've been reinforcing NATO's E flank since 2014 & preparing Ukraine to defend themselves.
We have already guaranteed Ukraine's national survival. They may lose some territory they failed to defend.
They had over 20 years to prepare for their own defense & failed to do so.
Yup, you've said it again...it's Ukraine's fault.

and NATO's...

The Russians have long memories...and Ukraine isn't a sovereign country...Russia is...

got it.
Ukraine is not without blame. Every nation has a responsibility to defend itself & to deter aggressors.
Ukraine was negligent in that regard. That's why nations like Israel & S Korea (to name 2) still exist.
We help them because they made a good faith effort to defend themselves. Ukraine did not.
They let Russia seize territory in 2014 & failed to deter or adequately defend against an invasion 8 years later.
Ukraine is an artificial construct. An accident of SovIet history with illogical indefensible borders.
THE Ukraine was an integral part of Russia, since the inception of the Russian nation, as was Belarus.
They were severed from Mother Russia by the accidental break up of the USSR.
Putin is not the only Russian nationalist intent on reuniting all of Russia.
This won't end with Putin.
Well, good to so clearly know where your sympathies lie.
So, to old salt …

… based on your own comments above, old salt, isn’t it reasonable to finally drop all pretenses and admit that you support Russian ultranationalist positions and favor Putin’s efforts to reintegrate Ukraine into Russia, even violently?

There really is no other way to have an honest conversation.

DocBarrister

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:32 pm
by Brooklyn
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am

I'm not going to argue about the hypocrisy...plenty of it.

But I don't think the "conservatives" of today are actually "conservative" much less actually "American", rather their sympathies lie with white nationalism. Radically so.

~ hypocrisy ~

Plenty of it. Nothing but total hypocrisy. Today, tomorrow, forever. Nothing of principle to these CONservatives. So full of schitt that they could fertilize a dozen deserts. Indeed, radically so.

Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:03 pm
by MDlaxfan76
Brooklyn wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:32 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am

I'm not going to argue about the hypocrisy...plenty of it.

But I don't think the "conservatives" of today are actually "conservative" much less actually "American", rather their sympathies lie with white nationalism. Radically so.

~ hypocrisy ~

Plenty of it. Nothing but total hypocrisy. Today, tomorrow, forever. Nothing of principle to these CONservatives. So full of schitt that they could fertilize a dozen deserts. Indeed, radically so.
To be clear, there are a whole bunch of actual conservatives who are NOT these MAGA, white nationalist or Qanon radicals.

Not to say that anyone is immune from some hypocrisy, whether witting or unwitting, but you might consider not lumping all in a single bucket.