American Educational System

[MDlaxfan76]

MD - I live on Kent Island - I coached soccer and lacrosse at Kent Island HS for 20 years, hanging up my lanyard in 2019. I have taught at the middle school level on Kent Island since 2000. I was at Loyola Blakefield from 1986-1999 - coached soccer & lacrosse there as well. I attended public school in Baltimore County, Maryland all 12 years.

Yes, social media has changed so much and so many of the students at the middle school level do not handle it well. Our local state's attorney comes to the middle schools in our district every year. He speaks to the students about social media and the what can happen to them if they post inappropriate content. He talks about the immediate effect and the long term effects.

I do not see a significant increase in students who live in higher socio-economic areas going to private school. IMO, this is a middle class phenomenon. What I believe is happening is that more parents, as a whole, are seeing the benefits of a private school education. My sons high school claims they receive upwards of 600 applications for 9th grade every year and 300 students are admitted. Now, some students choose to attend a different school. At the catholic school where my wife teaches, they are busting at the seams. When she was there as a 1st grader 52 years ago there were 52 students in her class which was taught by a nun. Now she has 18-20 students in her 1st grade class and she has an aide who is there from 8-12. When she taught 1st grade in the public schools in Anne Arundel County in MD (she retired in 2021) she had 22-24 students and no aide. I believe this class size is typical of most public schools in our area. In addition to that, the privates can separate themselves from a child. Only in extreme cases does this happen in public school. Classroom management is much less of a challenge in the privates. The teachers are no different, the students are. They benefit from like-minded students and their parents who put great value on their education.

I really think we are seeing a trend toward parents at least considering a private school education for their child who would not have in the past. This trend was accelerated by the pandemic. Only time will tell if it continues. The girl who does my wife's hair sends her son to my sons alma mater. Her husband is a real estate agent and since the recent downturn in the market they are struggling to pay tuition. They are thinking of taking out a second mortgage on their home to make up the shortfall. Just one example, but I think it speaks to what some folks will do to keep their child in what they believe is a school that will ultimately make a significant difference in their child.

ahhh, then I gotta ask what your favorite dock bar is!
My wife and I and sometimes son with us come down and do an easy bike ride usually from Jetty parking lot up to park and back. Enough to work up a taste for good fish sandwich and some cold ones...

We used to always end up back out there, usually on the very end of the dock, but have begun to explore...

Some excellent ball out of Kent Islands HS over the years.
But yeah, I guess not in the top 40 publics in MD academically.
Sounds like they had quite a goaltender this past season!

Do you send your son over the bridge to St. Mary's or other, or is there another strong Catholic school on your side?

My brother-in-law is a '76 from Loyola Blakefield, his son a 2014.
I was Gilman '76, son a '12, my dad was McDonogh '50.
The girls all Garrison Forest.
We've chosen the private route for the reasons you describe others do when the public options aren't super stellar.
My wife, however, benefited from a public education in Falmouth MA where the real estate taxes and local scientific community of Woods Hole drove good opportunities. Her family couldn't have afforded private (she paid her own way to college and B-school), but fortunately her HS was strong. Her sister just retired from teaching in middle school there, one niece is the school counselor/coach in a county over.

Near where we are in Baltimore County, Hereford, Towson, Carver (arts and technology), and Dulaney are the best public options and they're pretty darn good from all I can tell. But so many private options...

yes, there was definitely a pandemic related bump in demand and in the year thereafter for private/independents, but it's a pretty open question as to whether that will be sustained.

MD - my son went to Spalding, we were extremely pleased with his development despite the pandemic extinguishing the better part of his sophomore year. He played lacrosse his freshman year (2 games until the pandemic hit) and sophomore year until he suffered a labral tear. He had to have have it repaired 7 months after the first surgery costing him his junior year. He kicked for the football team as a senior and they had a great season, winning the 'A' conference championship.

The best dock bar IMO is the Big Owl Bar - the food at the Crab Deck is good. Riding the Cross Island Trail is nice cause not too many hills over here on the shore. I suggest parking at Kent Island HS or Love Point Park and heading to the narrows from there - it is a 5 mile ride, about 30 minutes.

I graduated from Hereford HS in '78 and went on to play lacrosse at Maryland from '79-'83. The '79 team was loaded - we only lost 2 games, both to Hopkins. Regular season 13-12 and the championship game 14-9.

When we used to go south from Hereford to Dulaney & Towson they used to moo at us cause we were the rednecks from the sticks. Now, a lot of those folks are living in the Hereford zone. It is now widely considered the top public high school in Baltimore County. I bailed hay as a teenager at what is now Genesee Valley Farm for Tommy Lamonica for .50 cents/hour. Tommy used to lease my parents 12 acre field to harvest hay.

small world...I think I missed playing against you in college as we got stomped by UMD 16-3 in '78. Worstel, Boniello, Ott, Lamon...we were a lot better in '79, but that was still in struggling days. Great Maryland teams.

Spalding has been excellent in the recent era. Bummer on labral tear, my son had a torn hip labrum early in senior season, played on it, but very painful, repaired freshman year in college. He'd had a meniscus tear as a sophomore in HS, but that operation and repair was relatively easy. Great that your son was able to kick!

Yes, Hereford was "up there" in those days, not so much anymore!
I recall wrestling there and at Belair and it was a hike for each for us Roland Parkers...

I spent a month one summer in HS on a farm north of Monkton, tossing bails of hay, brutal hot barn, herding cows, etc...good for the wrestling though!

[old salt]

Can anyone give a simple explanation of Biden's latest student loan repayment scheme ?
I've tried reading the news accounts, but they don't suffice.

I'm sympathetic to the futility of trying to dig out from under the burden of years of accrued compounded interest.
That's why I've always avoided loans, credit card debt & paid off mortgages way early.

Will this scheme ensure that at least the amount of the original loan(s) principal(s) is(are) paid off eventually ?

imho -- everyone should have to pay back at least the amount they borrowed & future loans need to be govt backed, interest free, & place some of the burden on the academic institution getting paid.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Can anyone give a simple explanation of Biden's latest student loan repayment scheme ?
I've tried reading the news accounts, but they don't suffice.

I'm sympathetic to the futility of trying to dig out from under the burden of years of accrued compounded interest.
That's why I've always avoided loans, credit card debt & paid off mortgages way early.

Will this scheme ensure that at least the amount of the original loan(s) principal(s) is(are) paid off eventually ?

imho -- everyone should have to pay back at least the amount they borrowed & future loans need to be govt backed, interest free, & place some of the burden on the academic institution getting paid.

How are you impacted?

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loan ... dent-loans

[MDlaxfan76]

Here's the one being discussed in the last 24 hours.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loan ... idr-waiver

It addresses various administrative "errors" in the past which have some borrowers paying for decades, without getting off the hook. The loans effected were ones tied to income and were intended to be forgiven after a specific amount of time...apparently the loan servicers manipulated such that they were never released. It's predominantly impacting people who have been paying for a very long time, not newbies. Think teachers and social workers, never high enough of an income to get out from under...

But as the article indicates, it's one of several adjustments to relieve student debt burdens.

What it doesn't do is simply wipe out a wide swath of debt regardless of capacity to repay. The one overturned by SCOTUS was a wider brush, though also didn't address a heck of a lot of other student debt that was private...

[Farfromgeneva]

This one is fine. If you can’t pay off an IBR structure in 25yrs it didn’t work. Not sure if this impact FICO or credit histories or I’d imagine at a min it’s a taxable event like any debt forgiveness should be so there’s still some exist consequences/costs but it’s pointless to have >20yr outstanding student debt. Even if monetarily keeping it PAA (pay as agreed) it’s tantamount to a functional default anyways so may as well cut it off. By comparison the private IBR lender I work with (on top of Stafford and subsidized programs so supplemental debt (they do no co-signer and only lend to juniors and seniors as well) is a 60mo term with up to 60mo forbearance so you have a ten year legal final outcome. That makes so much more sense.

Still need cost accountability and others things. But I’m far less concerned or have issues with this. Still feels like a Christmas shopping list for voters grab but much more justifiable and logical at least.

[old salt]

Here's the one being discussed in the last 24 hours.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loan ... idr-waiver

It addresses various administrative "errors" in the past which have some borrowers paying for decades, without getting off the hook. The loans effected were ones tied to income and were intended to be forgiven after a specific amount of time...apparently the loan servicers manipulated such that they were never released. It's predominantly impacting people who have been paying for a very long time, not newbies. Think teachers and social workers, never high enough of an income to get out from under...

But as the article indicates, it's one of several adjustments to relieve student debt burdens.

What it doesn't do is simply wipe out a wide swath of debt regardless of capacity to repay. The one overturned by SCOTUS was a wider brush, though also didn't address a heck of a lot of other student debt that was private...

Does that nerdwallet link include everything that is going to be done ?

Will past commercial lenders share any of the loss or will they be made whole (at least on their principal) by govt funds ?

[MDlaxfan76]

Here's the one being discussed in the last 24 hours.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loan ... idr-waiver

It addresses various administrative "errors" in the past which have some borrowers paying for decades, without getting off the hook. The loans effected were ones tied to income and were intended to be forgiven after a specific amount of time...apparently the loan servicers manipulated such that they were never released. It's predominantly impacting people who have been paying for a very long time, not newbies. Think teachers and social workers, never high enough of an income to get out from under...

But as the article indicates, it's one of several adjustments to relieve student debt burdens.

What it doesn't do is simply wipe out a wide swath of debt regardless of capacity to repay. The one overturned by SCOTUS was a wider brush, though also didn't address a heck of a lot of other student debt that was private...

Does that nerdwallet link include everything that is going to be done ?

Will past commercial lenders share any of the loss or will they be made whole (at least on their principal) by govt funds ?

reasonable questions. I don't know all the details, but I very much doubt that any private lenders which had government guarantees of the principal will be out a dime on that principal. I think the bulk of these programs, however, weren't commercial loans by private lenders, but rather government loans serviced by private servicers. Pass through, paid to do the servicing. What they will be "out" is perhaps some accrued interest and/or the end of servicing fees.

And I don't know that this is all of the things the Biden Admin will try to do to make good on its campaign promises, but it's obviously quite a lot.

[MDlaxfan76]

This one is fine. If you can’t pay off an IBR structure in 25yrs it didn’t work. Not sure if this impact FICO or credit histories or I’d imagine at a min it’s a taxable event like any debt forgiveness should be so there’s still some exist consequences/costs but it’s pointless to have >20yr outstanding student debt. Even if monetarily keeping it PAA (pay as agreed) it’s tantamount to a functional default anyways so may as well cut it off. By comparison the private IBR lender I work with (on top of Stafford and subsidized programs so supplemental debt (they do no co-signer and only lend to juniors and seniors as well) is a 60mo term with up to 60mo forbearance so you have a ten year legal final outcome. That makes so much more sense.

Still need cost accountability and others things. But I’m far less concerned or have issues with this. Still feels like a Christmas shopping list for voters grab but much more justifiable and logical at least.

Yup, though the program was actually designed to have the flexibility to shut down if the income level didn't support more...policy decision that we actually need teachers and social workers etc...they're saying there were "errors" in calculations/management, so there may not actually be a taxable event as it sounds like the government is saying they didn't actually owe it if the original terms had been honored correctly...that's just supposition, though.

[Farfromgeneva]

Here's the one being discussed in the last 24 hours.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loan ... idr-waiver

It addresses various administrative "errors" in the past which have some borrowers paying for decades, without getting off the hook. The loans effected were ones tied to income and were intended to be forgiven after a specific amount of time...apparently the loan servicers manipulated such that they were never released. It's predominantly impacting people who have been paying for a very long time, not newbies. Think teachers and social workers, never high enough of an income to get out from under...

But as the article indicates, it's one of several adjustments to relieve student debt burdens.

What it doesn't do is simply wipe out a wide swath of debt regardless of capacity to repay. The one overturned by SCOTUS was a wider brush, though also didn't address a heck of a lot of other student debt that was private...

Does that nerdwallet link include everything that is going to be done ?

Will past commercial lenders share any of the loss or will they be made whole (at least on their principal) by govt funds ?

reasonable questions. I don't know all the details, but I very much doubt that any private lenders which had government guarantees of the principal will be out a dime on that principal. I think the bulk of these programs, however, weren't commercial loans by private lenders, but rather government loans serviced by private servicers. Pass through, paid to do the servicing. What they will be "out" is perhaps some accrued interest and/or the end of servicing fees.

And I don't know that this is all of the things the Biden Admin will try to do to make good on its campaign promises, but it's obviously quite a lot.

If they’re older loans they’re FFELP (Federal Family Education Loan Program) which existed until 2010-2011 when the Obama administration took subsidized student lending in house. Under FFELP the govt guaranteed 97-100% of the loan principal on loan made to their box/eligibility (the actual gty was based on lender/servicer performance) but those loans were made and administered by private third parties (Sallie Mae now known as NelNet largely but there were others).

So if these are restructured loans 20-25yrs in theyd be ffelp rather than made under direct DOE lending of the last 10-15yrs.

https://studentaid.gov/articles/what-to ... fel-loans/

These bonds had tons of OAS (spread adjusted for optionality) in the secondary market as long avg life floaters (made a nice bond in bank securities books at + 200-300bps and AA+ rated).

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/s ... 30-06-2022

[Farfromgeneva]

This one is fine. If you can’t pay off an IBR structure in 25yrs it didn’t work. Not sure if this impact FICO or credit histories or I’d imagine at a min it’s a taxable event like any debt forgiveness should be so there’s still some exist consequences/costs but it’s pointless to have >20yr outstanding student debt. Even if monetarily keeping it PAA (pay as agreed) it’s tantamount to a functional default anyways so may as well cut it off. By comparison the private IBR lender I work with (on top of Stafford and subsidized programs so supplemental debt (they do no co-signer and only lend to juniors and seniors as well) is a 60mo term with up to 60mo forbearance so you have a ten year legal final outcome. That makes so much more sense.

Still need cost accountability and others things. But I’m far less concerned or have issues with this. Still feels like a Christmas shopping list for voters grab but much more justifiable and logical at least.

Yup, though the program was actually designed to have the flexibility to shut down if the income level didn't support more...policy decision that we actually need teachers and social workers etc...they're saying there were "errors" in calculations/management, so there may not actually be a taxable event as it sounds like the government is saying they didn't actually owe it if the original terms had been honored correctly...that's just supposition, though.

I’ve always been fine with a lot of policy decisions that are transparent and direct, not administered, filtered or distributed through various Channels or with many layers of redundancy, slippage and frictions.

I suspect the errors and calculations they’re finding are problems they’re looking for to resolve this without any cost or consequence and may pull it off but likely playing games with the literal codified language rather than the spirit or intention of the original agreements. Doesn’t really bother me but the general abrogation or contracts and all this really does bother me in general because it slowly erodes property rights IMO when everyone incl the fed govt tracts contracts as meaningless if they get into the way.

Can we get a rebate from the colleges? Claw back incentive comp from administrators at a min?

[SCLaxAttack]

Wesleyan eliminates legacy from their admissions decisions:

https://thehill.com/homenews/education/ ... rt-ruling/

[Andersen]

Having vacationed overseas recently started me thinking about one important factor in our educational system is the number of days in a school year compared to other countries, especially the two month or longer summer break. There is always talk about our world rankings in various educational standards, but I don't see the number of instructional days brought up very often. If it ever is mentioned, someone usually says that it's a legacy of our agricultural past, but off the top of my head, I believe less than 2% of the country are farmers in 2023.

Aside from the education loss, there's also the important issue of how difficult lengthy vacations are for most working parents.

I remember years ago, when shortening summer vacation was discussed, there was a great howl coming from businesses in Ocean City, so the matter was dropped.

To me, a 180 day school year is unrealistic luxury in 2023.

[Farfromgeneva]

Wesleyan eliminates legacy from their admissions decisions:

https://thehill.com/homenews/education/ ... rt-ruling/

I come almost transferred to Wesleyan which obviously would’ve closed the ranking/reputation gap between them and hobart had I made the jump if you know what im saying. But this quote/comment is pretty dumb:

An applicant’s connection to a Wesleyan graduate indicates little about that applicant’s ability to succeed at the University, meaning that legacy status has played a negligible role in our admission process for many years,” Wesleyan President Michael Roth said in an announcement.

Like AQs in sports nobody said admissions was strictly an ordinal ranking of likeliest to least likely applicant to succeed as if that’s the standard so this feels like a CYA comment.

[Farfromgeneva]

Having vacationed overseas recently started me thinking about one important factor in our educational system is the number of days in a school year compared to other countries, especially the two month or longer summer break. There is always talk about our world rankings in various educational standards, but I don't see the number of instructional days brought up very often. If it ever is mentioned, someone usually says that it's a legacy of our agricultural past, but off the top of my head, I believe less than 2% of the country are farmers in 2023.

Aside from the education loss, there's also the important issue of how difficult lengthy vacations are for most working parents.

I remember years ago, when shortening summer vacation was discussed, there was a great howl coming from businesses in Ocean City, so the matter was dropped.

To me, a 180 day school year is unrealistic luxury in 2023.

Just had this conversation w my sister who’s really into early development and education and we agreed school should be year round with some breaks here or there. We’re so tight now a few days called for black ice a couple of years back forced APS to add days back at end of year just to be federally compliant but a lot of that is budgetary being cheaper to operate basically 8mo of the year vs 12. Then they shorten summer and do full week breaks in October and Feb under the thesis that’s it’s cheaper or easier on lower income families for childcare to not have 10-12 straight weeks in summer but it’s the same amount of time and I don’t see that theory as playing out the way they claim in practice .

[Andersen]

My thought is that 180 days, regardless of how they're spaced out is inadequate for today's world.

[Farfromgeneva]

My thought is that 180 days, regardless of how they're spaced out is inadequate for today's world.

Agreed hence my comment around year round. Can still have a week or even two here or there but should be able to get to more like 220-240 days (approximating 28% of 365 days are weekends so leaves you like 260-270 available then 10-15 holidays leaves like 250-260 available days).

[a fan]

My thought is that 180 days, regardless of how they're spaced out is inadequate for today's world.

Agreed hence my comment around year round. Can still have a week or even two here or there but should be able to get to more like 220-240 days (approximating 28% of 365 days are weekends so leaves you like 260-270 available then 10-15 holidays leaves like 250-260 available days).

We had what was called "Concept 6" in Colorado in the late 70's to early 80's.

There were three groups of students, each in a "track".

They only had 2 groups on campus at anytime, with the 3rd group on vacation. Each Track received two vacations per year. Result: reduced class size, and reduced building needs, and building was occupied year-round.

It was great.....if you wanted to ski, you had Track A or B that split winter. And if you preferred summers off, you had track C.

I don't know why it was abandoned for certain, but I'm pretty sure it was because sports kept a ton of kids from having proper vacations with the family.

[youthathletics]

My thought is that 180 days, regardless of how they're spaced out is inadequate for today's world.

Agreed hence my comment around year round. Can still have a week or even two here or there but should be able to get to more like 220-240 days (approximating 28% of 365 days are weekends so leaves you like 260-270 available then 10-15 holidays leaves like 250-260 available days).

We had what was called "Concept 6" in Colorado in the late 70's to early 80's.

There were three groups of students, each in a "track".

They only had 2 groups on campus at anytime, with the 3rd group on vacation. Each Track received two vacations per year. Result: reduced class size, and reduced building needs, and building was occupied year-round.

It was great.....if you wanted to ski, you had Track A or B that split winter. And if you preferred summers off, you had track C.

I don't know why it was abandoned for certain, but I'm pretty sure it was because sports kept a ton of kids from having proper vacations with the family.

NC has the same thing and continues to do the same for Elementary and Middle....High School is traditional 180 straight days. 4 tracks total, 3 tracks are active at one time, whith track 4 out. When the 3 tracks are in they are staggered by 9 weeks on 3 weeks off. It gets messy and acts like a serpentine as each track finishes and is backfilled by the one sitting out.

NC found that test scores and retention of those in 'tracks' were far better than those sitting out for the summer duration.

[Farfromgeneva]

My thought is that 180 days, regardless of how they're spaced out is inadequate for today's world.

Agreed hence my comment around year round. Can still have a week or even two here or there but should be able to get to more like 220-240 days (approximating 28% of 365 days are weekends so leaves you like 260-270 available then 10-15 holidays leaves like 250-260 available days).

We had what was called "Concept 6" in Colorado in the late 70's to early 80's.

There were three groups of students, each in a "track".

They only had 2 groups on campus at anytime, with the 3rd group on vacation. Each Track received two vacations per year. Result: reduced class size, and reduced building needs, and building was occupied year-round.

It was great.....if you wanted to ski, you had Track A or B that split winter. And if you preferred summers off, you had track C.

I don't know why it was abandoned for certain, but I'm pretty sure it was because sports kept a ton of kids from having proper vacations with the family.

Ski on the weekends and Red Rocks all summer

[KI Dock Bar]

If the school year were to be increased from 180 days to 225 days, a 20% increase, then a 20% increase for all teachers and staff. Where does that money come from?

A 9-12 week on and 3-4 week off schedule for K-5 children is extremely difficult because of establishing routines after a 3-4 week break. The spiraling of their education can be challenging. Spiraling, also know as scaffolding refers to building on prior knowledge while introducing new content. This can be difficult when the students are not in school for 3-4 weeks because they do not retain content that they learned in the previous 9-12 weeks since it is not reviewed consistently. Some students will get the support at home to minimize this, others will not.

It is the same challenge we are facing now coming out of the pandemic. Students received varying amounts of support at home during that experience. Public education spends a great deal of effort trying to raise the low and close the gap. This effort is more of a challenge now, then it was before.