Inside Lacrosse Top 50

[njbill]

Breaking news: Maddie Jenner is an amazing draw girl. One of the best ever. Just about every team in D1 would love to have her on their roster. In any toss up game she gives the edge to Duke because the game is all about possession. That doesnt mean they will win all those toss up games but when they dont that falls on the offense or perhaps coaching. I also think she is a better offensive player then people realize and Duke should use her and her height advantage more on the offensive end. I dont see how you cant have her in the top 10. She has a bigger impact on the game then just about any defender in my opinion.

I agree with this. Is she a better center than attacker? Yes. I have seen her play high school, club, U19, and college. That observation is certainly fair. I particularly agree with your point that Duke should be able to make better use of her height.

Doc, I read your comment as saying you think she shouldn’t play attack, but only take the draw. I think that’s a fair point, one that certainly some (maybe many) college coaches might agree with. Of course, it depends on who you have on your team. If you have a better attacking middie, then play her on attack. If you don’t, then play Jenner.

[njbill]

Yes, the tapped out comment is what got me riled up. Saying a player tapped out is saying they quit the game. They asked off of the draw. If that’s factually correct, then prove it. $1 million says it’s untrue. So it’s not a matter of opinion; it’s a matter of taking a cheap, false shot at a great player.

In the NCAA game, Maryland won the draw 18-10. Jenner had 4 draws. Ahern had 9. Without re-watching the game film, I don’t know how many draws either player took or how many they took against each other. Regardless, neither 18–10 nor 9–4 constitutes “total domination.”

In the Notre Dame ACC game, ND won the draw 19–15. Jenner had seven draws as did Doherty, who was the leading draw collector for the Irish. Neither is remotely close to “total domination.”

BTW, in the Notre Dame regular season game, Duke won the draw 15–14. Maddie won 10. Notre Dame‘s leading draw collector got three.

[Bart]

Breaking news: Maddie Jenner is an amazing draw girl. One of the best ever. Just about every team in D1 would love to have her on their roster. In any toss up game she gives the edge to Duke because the game is all about possession. That doesnt mean they will win all those toss up games but when they dont that falls on the offense or perhaps coaching. I also think she is a better offensive player then people realize and Duke should use her and her height advantage more on the offensive end. I dont see how you cant have her in the top 10. She has a bigger impact on the game then just about any defender in my opinion.

Shhhhhh….the draw doesn’t matter

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Breaking news: Maddie Jenner is an amazing draw girl. One of the best ever. Just about every team in D1 would love to have her on their roster. In any toss up game she gives the edge to Duke because the game is all about possession. That doesnt mean they will win all those toss up games but when they dont that falls on the offense or perhaps coaching. I also think she is a better offensive player then people realize and Duke should use her and her height advantage more on the offensive end. I dont see how you cant have her in the top 10. She has a bigger impact on the game then just about any defender in my opinion.

Shhhhhh….the draw doesn’t matter

Correct--in some cases it doesn't. DMac and I have made the case quite well. And neither one of us said the draw doesn't matter. We both said the importance of it is too often over simplified and over hyped.

[njbill]

To an extent, I think both sides are talking past each other. The pro-draw posters acknowledge that sometimes the team that wins the draw loses the game. Nobody is saying that winning the draw necessarily leads to a goal 100% of the time. The anti-draw people concede the team that wins the draw generally wins the game.

In my view, arguing that turnovers, saves, missed shots, etc. negate the importance of the draw is off the mark. In fact, those things are really immaterial to the importance of the draw. They involve other phases of the game.

If you win the draw, you get the ball and have a chance at scoring. If you have the ball, the other team has no chance to score.

I don’t think there is any dispute that every coach, player, and fan wants their team to win each and every draw.

Just checked box scores for the last 25 years of all college wlax games. The team that won the draw won the game 82.7468% of the time.

[admin]

Suggest you watch a little lacrosse and learn a bit about the game before you post here again.

Reminder: No personal attacks.

[njbill]

Gee, I wonder who contacted admin? Hint: it wasn’t mom.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Just checked box scores for the last 25 years of all college wlax games. The team that won the draw won the game 82.7468% of the time.

The stats bear me out:

120 teams competed in NCAA D1 women's lacrosse last year. What if we apportioned an average of 18 games per team? That's about 2160 games played last season, give or take. Even if there were only 10 percent of the games where the team that won the draw control battle lost the game, (and I think there were more), that would be 216 games. That's nothing to dismiss. Hardly warrants an ironclad truism...

That's some bit of numbers crunching, Bill. How in the world did you do that in such a short period of time? Got a website to share...?

[njbill]

You need to check your math, ONW. Pretty elementary error in there.

[DMac]

In my view, arguing that turnovers, saves, missed shots, etc. negate the importance of the draw is off the mark. In fact, those things are really immaterial to the importance of the draw. They involve other phases of the game.

This is a little different than what I have said. What I have said is that in IMO the importance of the draw is overrated. While the other phases of the game are seen as immaterial to you regarding the importance of the draw (a girl on the circle who picks up a GB on the draw is credited with a DC win, no?) that certainly doesn't mean they're not a big part of the game. What percent of coaches don't want a girl who comes up with 15 GBs a game or a GK who averages 19 saves per game?

Nobody has said draws don't matter, Bart.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

You need to check your math, ONW. Pretty elementary error in there.

You gave the stat that the team that won the draw won the game over 82% of the time in the last 25 years. That was my point--I said it would be more than 10% of the time that the team that lost the battle of the draw would win the game. I don't doubt I made an error but the percentage I guessed at is correct. Unless I'm really missing something--which is not outside the realm of possibility...

[njbill]

I don’t understand your point, DMac. Again, I think we are talking past each other.

The draw is important. We all agree. Turnovers, saves, etc. are also important. But they have no direct relevance to the draw which is a separate and distinct part of the game. That is what I am saying. The fact that a team that wins the draw turns the ball over doesn’t negate the importance of having won the draw in the first place. Winning the draw gives a team an opportunity to score, just not a guarantee of same.

You keep injecting the word “overrated.” Overrated by whom? That’s a subjective opinion. I frankly don’t know what you mean when you use that word.

I say winning the draw is important. Are you saying I am overrating its importance?

[njbill]

You need to check your math, ONW. Pretty elementary error in there.

You gave the stat that the team that won the draw won the game over 82% of the time in the last 25 years. That was my point--I said it would be more than 10% of the time that the team that lost the battle of the draw would win the game. I don't doubt I made an error but the percentage I guessed at is correct. Unless I'm really missing something--which is not outside the realm of possibility...

Do you know what means?

I don’t know if you really don’t get it or if you are just being obstinate, but I’ll play along.

You say there are 120 teams playing women’s lacrosse. Without bothering to check that, I am willing to accept it as accurate for purposes of this discussion. You estimate 18 games per season. I’ll accept that as a reasonable estimate. You say 120×18 equals 2160. I agree.

Your mistake is saying that there were 2160 games played. That is wrong. In fact, there were 1080 games.

Let me spoonfeed it to you.

Let’s say UNC and BC play 18 times. Assume UNC wins all of the games. UNC’s record is 18–0. BC’s is 0–18.

How many games were played?

A. 36
B. 18

Ya und?

[Justalaxdad]

That’s why draw controls and draw control specialists are overrated.

Well, then why did you use draw controls as a metric to determine that CN was/is better than JO? Now, suddenly draw controls are overrated?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

You need to check your math, ONW. Pretty elementary error in there.

You gave the stat that the team that won the draw won the game over 82% of the time in the last 25 years. That was my point--I said it would be more than 10% of the time that the team that lost the battle of the draw would win the game. I don't doubt I made an error but the percentage I guessed at is correct. Unless I'm really missing something--which is not outside the realm of possibility...

Do you know what means?

I don’t know if you really don’t get it or if you are just being obstinate, but I’ll play along.

You say there are 120 teams playing women’s lacrosse. Without bothering to check that, I am willing to accept it as accurate for purposes of this discussion. You estimate 18 games per season. I’ll accept that as a reasonable estimate. You say 120×18 equals 2160. I agree.

Your mistake is saying that there were 2160 games played. That is wrong. In fact, there were 1080 games.

Let me spoonfeed it to you.

Let’s say UNC and BC play 18 times. Assume UNC wins all of the games. UNC’s record is 18–0. BC’s is 0–18.

How many games were played?

A. 36
B. 18

Ya und?

Now I get it. Yup--I am really that dense when it comes to math. Thanks for explaining it, Bill.

[njbill]

That’s why draw controls and draw control specialists are overrated.

Well, then why did you use draw controls as a metric to determine that CN was/is better than JO? Now, suddenly draw controls are overrated?

Wish I thought of that one.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

That’s why draw controls and draw control specialists are overrated.

Well, then why did you use draw controls as a metric to determine that CN was/is better than JO? Now, suddenly draw controls are overrated?

No contradiction that I can see. My whole issue is with lazy broadcasters constantly parroting to me that if you win the draw you win the game. I never said winning draws isn't important. My contention is they don't guarantee a win if a team ends up with more at the end of the game. Plus I demonstrated that when the chips were down against tough competition--Jenner didn't help Duke win in the least--so yes--draw specialists are overrated. And no one would ever classify The Great One as a draw specialist. Maddie Jenner? Draw Specialist. Katelyn Mashewske? Draw Specialist. Charlotte North? Attacker who does well on draws. The fact that North put up just as many points as JO and won draws makes her a more valuable player.

[DMac]

I don’t understand your point, DMac. Again, I think we are talking past each other.

The draw is important. We all agree. Turnovers, saves, etc. are also important. But they have no direct relevance to the draw which is a separate and distinct part of the game. That is what I am saying. The fact that a team that wins the draw turns the ball over doesn’t negate the importance of having won the draw in the first place. Winning the draw gives a team an opportunity to score, just not a guarantee of same.

You keep injecting the word “overrated.” Overrated by whom? That’s a subjective opinion. I frankly don’t know what you mean when you use that word.

I say winning the draw is important. Are you saying I am overrating its importance?

Agree, we're talking past each other. Will go back to what got me going on this years ago, DRAWS WINS GAMES!!!
No, they are but one phase of the game and the other phases are of equal importance the way I see it.

I say winning the draw is important. Are you saying I am overrating its importance?

I don't think saying winning the draw is important is at all wrong but when DRAWS WINS GAMES is added to it I do think the draw wins is being overrated.
JFTR, I've paid fairly close attention to this the past number of years (much more so on the mlax side but also on the wlax side since being grabbed the game...the new one). It used to be commonplace to hear FACEOFFS WINS GAMES from commentators. You now, on both the M and W side, will hear many of them say that also depends on what they do with the face off win...positive possession matters. You'll hear Sheehan Stanwick Burch say that now....methinks she reads FL.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

You'll hear Sheehan Stanwick Burch say that now....methinks she reads FL.

I think a lot of people in the world of lacrosse read fanlax. Ever notice how topics discussed on these boards end up in IL and USA Lax mag articles a day or two later?

[Justalaxdad]

That’s why draw controls and draw control specialists are overrated.

Well, then why did you use draw controls as a metric to determine that CN was/is better than JO? Now, suddenly draw controls are overrated?

No contradiction that I can see. My whole issue is with lazy broadcasters constantly parroting to me that if you win the draw you win the game. I never said winning draws isn't important. My contention is they don't guarantee a win if a team ends up with more at the end of the game. And no one would ever classify The Great One as a draw specialist. Maddie Jenner? Draw Specialist. Katelyn Mashewske? Draw Specialist. Charlotte North? Attacker who does well on draws.

Wow, you must make yourself dizzy talking in circles all the time. I’m thinking you should change your screen name from OuttaNowhereWregget to AlwaysMovingTheGoalPosts.