Page 4 of 6
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:55 am
by pcowlax
Completely agree as well. college lax and the NFL are, uhm, not operating in the same economic spheres but even there, while the NFL tries to "grow the game" (i.e. grow the economics) by playing regular season games in England and now Germany and Mexico, they wouldn't dream of having the Super Bowl there. By all means, have a West Coast Showdown with some attractive teams. Do it in Texas and Florida too. But keep the quarterfinals and beyond where people will go to them. Someone asked who cares if the stadium is empty? Beside the obvious economics of it, the players care! They have one chance in their life to play lax in front of 15,000 fans in a packed house. Any player would vastly prefer that to getting to play in an 80,000 seat stadium that is 95% empty.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:31 pm
by OCanada
The tournament has drawn crowds in excess of 50,000. Then the NCAA wanted mo money, initiated an inflationary award process, refused approval for events that would have attracted more people and in general forgot the fan base. 2007/8 and after didn’t help either. Nor did covid. Lits of strings to pull on
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
by ICGrad
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 1:08 pm
by Farfromgeneva
OCanada wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:31 pm
The tournament has drawn crowds in excess of 50,000. Then the NCAA wanted mo money, initiated an inflationary award process, refused approval for events that would have attracted more people and in general forgot the fan base. 2007/8 and after didn’t help either. Nor did covid. Lits of strings to pull on
So 1-2x out of 15-20yrs you have standing room only like the Orioles. Not a bad thing optically or at the spot to have that occurrence. Especially when we’re talking about the deleterious effects of overcapacity on the product.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 1:11 pm
by hmmm
Chousnake wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:15 am
It’s fine to play regular season games in non-traditional locations so fans in the Midwest and West can see live lax, but playing the quarterfinals of the season’s showcase event - the tournament- makes no sense on so many levels. It adds needless travel time and expenses for the teams - often during finals. It is unfair for the families of the players. And it stinks for the true lax fans , the overwhelming majority of whom who still live in the I 95 corridor. Play a showcase in Ohio or California or wherever, but the quarterfinals should be in two locations between New England and North Carolina every season.
Just have the QFs on campus at higher seed. They earned it.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 1:13 pm
by Farfromgeneva
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
That’s changing rapidly though isn’t it? I have a friend who’s a commercial and public landscape architect there who tells me the permanent population has been growing for 10-15yrs. I just don’t some much time there anymore, mainly driving through to Geneva if at all last decade or so.s
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 2:36 pm
by CU77
hmmm wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:11 pm
Just have the QFs on campus at higher seed. They earned it.
Agreed.
Also, "growing the game" is NOT going to increase crowd size at championships.
Look at soccer: 200+ DI men's teams, a 48 team tournament.
All tournament games up until the final four (the "College Cup") are played on the home field of the higher seed.
The College Cup is usually played in ~20K stadiums. But attendance is generally under 10K per game, and nears that only when a reasonably local team with a solid fan base is playing. If not, 5K or less per game is more common.
And this for a sport that every kid in America has played.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
CU77 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:36 pm
hmmm wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:11 pm
Just have the QFs on campus at higher seed. They earned it.
Agreed.
Also, "growing the game" is NOT going to increase crowd size at championships.
Look at soccer: 200+ DI men's teams, a 48 team tournament.
All tournament games up until the final four (the "College Cup") are played on the home field of the higher seed.
The College Cup is usually played in ~20K stadiums. But attendance is generally under 10K per game, and nears that only when a reasonably local team with a solid fan base is playing. If not, 5K or less per game is more common.
And this for a sport that every kid in America has played.
College lacrosse will draw better than college soccer. Maryland, Akron and UCSB for instance draws good size crowds routinely, but generally, college soccer is not a heavy spectator sport in this country.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 5:13 pm
by ardilla secreta
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
Had to look it up. It was 1980. Hopkins beat Virginia 9-8 2OT in front of 7,557. I didn’t recall it ever being at Cornell.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 6:17 pm
by CU77
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pm
College lacrosse will draw better than college soccer.
Maybe. Not a lot of evidence for that. Soccer is by far the most popular sport in the world.
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pmMaryland, Akron and UCSB for instance draws good size crowds routinely, but generally, college soccer is not a heavy spectator sport in this country.
In 2018, Maryland had an average attendance per home game of 3115, which was 2nd in the country behind UConn (3213). UCSB (a very special case, no football team) was #9 at 2255, Akron was #16 at 1419, and 3-time defending national champion Stanford was #21 with 1254. That leaves 180 or so teams with worse attendance.
Maryland and Akron met in the championship game that year at UCSB's Harder Stadium. I was there. Crowd felt sparse. Official attendance was 4858, about 1/4 of stadium capacity.
Again: "growing the game" does not guarantee good attendance.
2018 soccer attendance stats (most recent I could find):
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_soccer_ ... ndance.pdf
Edit: I found the 2019 numbers. Maryland was #1, but now with a mere 2311 per game.
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_soccer_ ... ndance.pdf
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 6:28 pm
by Oldbarndog
Whatever road is travelled regarding stadium size, I hope that playing all three divisional championships at the same site is never compromised. Just doesn't get any better than that.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 6:45 pm
by Houndfan73
renault wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:43 am
Chousnake wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:15 am
It’s fine to play regular season games in non-traditional locations so fans in the Midwest and West can see live lax, but playing the quarterfinals of the season’s showcase event - the tournament- makes no sense on so many levels. It adds needless travel time and expenses for the teams - often during finals. It is unfair for the families of the players. And it stinks for the true lax fans , the overwhelming majority of whom who still live in the I 95 corridor. Play a showcase in Ohio or California or wherever, but the quarterfinals should be in two locations between New England and North Carolina every season.
completely agree.
True….except the expense for the team. NCAA pays for the travel for the qtrs and finals
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:06 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
CU77 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 6:17 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pm
College lacrosse will draw better than college soccer.
Maybe. Not a lot of evidence for that. Soccer is by far the most popular sport in the world.
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pmMaryland, Akron and UCSB for instance draws good size crowds routinely, but generally, college soccer is not a heavy spectator sport in this country.
In 2018, Maryland had an average attendance per home game of 3115, which was 2nd in the country behind UConn (3213). UCSB (a very special case, no football team) was #9 at 2255, Akron was #16 at 1419, and 3-time defending national champion Stanford was #21 with 1254. That leaves 180 or so teams with worse attendance.
Maryland and Akron met in the championship game that year at UCSB's Harder Stadium. I was there. Crowd felt sparse. Official attendance was 4858, about 1/4 of stadium capacity.
Again: "growing the game" does not guarantee good attendance.
2018 soccer attendance stats (most recent I could find):
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_soccer_ ... ndance.pdf
Edit: I found the 2019 numbers. Maryland was #1, but now with a mere 2311 per game.
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_soccer_ ... ndance.pdf
Yes. On average, college soccer isn’t as big a draw as college lacrosse. Some years the college cup isn’t televised ( I went to cup when it was in Birmingham). You had to stream UVA NCAA tournament soccer games in 2015&2016 I believe. For a sport that is far more popular globally, the amateur game just doesn’t draw like you would expect. Parent & alumni groups are not as engaged compared to lacrosse. Maryland has great fan support. My son considered college soccer until deciding it would be lacrosse. Could have played both in ACC but opted against it. Would have been sub optimized in both sports collegiately. I miss soccer though. I like the purity of the sport and the competition.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:55 pm
by ICGrad
ardilla secreta wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 5:13 pm
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
Had to look it up. It was 1980. Hopkins beat Virginia 9-8 2OT in front of 7,557. I didn’t recall it ever being at Cornell.
Interesting. Could have sworn it was earlier than that; goes to show what memory will do.
Actually fairly well attended; fewer than the title games on either side of it, but more than the first 5 or so and not egregiously low attendance or anything.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 7:57 pm
by ICGrad
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:13 pm
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
That’s changing rapidly though isn’t it? I have a friend who’s a commercial and public landscape architect there who tells me the permanent population has been growing for 10-15yrs. I just don’t some much time there anymore, mainly driving through to Geneva if at all last decade or so.s
It's been 5 or 6 years since I've been back; both my folks have moved away. Hoping to take my youngest son on a barnstorming tour of the gorges this summer.
According to the 'pedia, current populating is growing and ~33,000. Definitely bigger than when I grew up there, but still about doubles in size when IC and Cornell combined add 32,000+ souls.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:12 pm
by Farfromgeneva
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pm
CU77 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:36 pm
hmmm wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:11 pm
Just have the QFs on campus at higher seed. They earned it.
Agreed.
Also, "growing the game" is NOT going to increase crowd size at championships.
Look at soccer: 200+ DI men's teams, a 48 team tournament.
All tournament games up until the final four (the "College Cup") are played on the home field of the higher seed.
The College Cup is usually played in ~20K stadiums. But attendance is generally under 10K per game, and nears that only when a reasonably local team with a solid fan base is playing. If not, 5K or less per game is more common.
And this for a sport that every kid in America has played.
College lacrosse will draw better than college soccer. Maryland, Akron and UCSB for instance draws good size crowds routinely, but generally, college soccer is not a heavy spectator sport in this country.
That’s because they have ties. And nobody like kissing their sister.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:22 pm
by Farfromgeneva
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:57 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:13 pm
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
That’s changing rapidly though isn’t it? I have a friend who’s a commercial and public landscape architect there who tells me the permanent population has been growing for 10-15yrs. I just don’t some much time there anymore, mainly driving through to Geneva if at all last decade or so.s
It's been 5 or 6 years since I've been back; both my folks have moved away. Hoping to take my youngest son on a barnstorming tour of the gorges this summer.
According to the 'pedia, current populating is growing and ~33,000. Definitely bigger than when I grew up there, but still about doubles in size when IC and Cornell combined add 32,000+ souls.
Buttermilk falls is excellent to this day. You going to take him S/SW down to the gorges at Watkins Glen while up there?
But to me Ithaca/Syracuse/Binghamton/Corning is all one area of slightly larger concentric circles so it’s jot just Ithaca. Takes longer to get from Manhattan to Uniondale than it does Syracuse or Binghamton to Ithaca.
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:25 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:12 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pm
CU77 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:36 pm
hmmm wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:11 pm
Just have the QFs on campus at higher seed. They earned it.
Agreed.
Also, "growing the game" is NOT going to increase crowd size at championships.
Look at soccer: 200+ DI men's teams, a 48 team tournament.
All tournament games up until the final four (the "College Cup") are played on the home field of the higher seed.
The College Cup is usually played in ~20K stadiums. But attendance is generally under 10K per game, and nears that only when a reasonably local team with a solid fan base is playing. If not, 5K or less per game is more common.
And this for a sport that every kid in America has played.
College lacrosse will draw better than college soccer. Maryland, Akron and UCSB for instance draws good size crowds routinely, but generally, college soccer is not a heavy spectator sport in this country.
That’s because they have ties. And nobody like kissing their sister.
It’s a point
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:39 pm
by Farfromgeneva
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 7:57 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:13 pm
ICGrad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:38 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 8:46 am
Doesn’t Butterfield hold like 15k or something when they used to play Cortaca there? Overlooking the Finger Lakes. Airports (not counting Ithacas) within 1hr in Syracuse & Bing w Roch and Albany not horrible trips…
When I was a kid they hosted the finals in the Kopf. Cornell had a good team that year, too, but they got beaten in the quarters I think. Not sure the year...78?
I remember it was a huge deal; all over the papers and radio. I went to the final with friends, but Cornell wasn't in it and we mostly goofed around. Couldn't even tell you played (though I'm 99.5% sure Hopkins was one of the teams, though that's a "no duh" guess for 70s lacrosse final).
Anyway, I think it was pretty well attended, but this was just off the years of Cornell dominance and even then I don't think the attendance matched the other finals of the era. I mean, it's Memorial Day, Ithaca is a college town and half the population has just gone home.
That’s changing rapidly though isn’t it? I have a friend who’s a commercial and public landscape architect there who tells me the permanent population has been growing for 10-15yrs. I just don’t some much time there anymore, mainly driving through to Geneva if at all last decade or so.s
It's been 5 or 6 years since I've been back; both my folks have moved away. Hoping to take my youngest son on a barnstorming tour of the gorges this summer.
According to the 'pedia, current populating is growing and ~33,000. Definitely bigger than when I grew up there, but still about doubles in size when IC and Cornell combined add 32,000+ souls.
I checked and the last two games is upstate NY got 11,000 and 10,000 in 2017 & 2018 (there was this absurd riot in 2013 in Cortland after the game) then in 2019 they moved it to E Rutherford and it got around 45,000. For a regular season game. Kind of makes these discussions feel superfluous when we’re talking D3 football
Re: Stop playing tournament games in football stadiums
Posted: Tue May 24, 2022 10:41 pm
by Farfromgeneva
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:25 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 10:12 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:00 pm
CU77 wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 2:36 pm
hmmm wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 1:11 pm
Just have the QFs on campus at higher seed. They earned it.
Agreed.
Also, "growing the game" is NOT going to increase crowd size at championships.
Look at soccer: 200+ DI men's teams, a 48 team tournament.
All tournament games up until the final four (the "College Cup") are played on the home field of the higher seed.
The College Cup is usually played in ~20K stadiums. But attendance is generally under 10K per game, and nears that only when a reasonably local team with a solid fan base is playing. If not, 5K or less per game is more common.
And this for a sport that every kid in America has played.
College lacrosse will draw better than college soccer. Maryland, Akron and UCSB for instance draws good size crowds routinely, but generally, college soccer is not a heavy spectator sport in this country.
That’s because they have ties. And nobody like kissing their sister.
It’s a point
I’m trying to round third and slide into “home” not stretch a single into a double.