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Both games count for the NCAC West. If both teams run the table against Wittenberg, Wabash and DePauw (other teams in NCAC West), then the first tie-breaker is goal differential. If the goal differential is the same over the two games (and here it is +1 each), then the next tie-breaker must be the score of the first game. That is what I am guessing based on what Denison student announcer was saying.

OldWU wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:19 pm ...If the goal differential is the same over the two games (and here it is +1 each), then the next tie-breaker must be the score of the first game. That is what I am guessing based on what Denison student announcer was saying.

Not sure how much faith I put in those student announcers. Let's see what the Denison and OWU post-game press releases have to say on the subject.

FannOLax wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:24 pm

OldWU wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 3:19 pm ...If the goal differential is the same over the two games (and here it is +1 each), then the next tie-breaker must be the score of the first game. That is what I am guessing based on what Denison student announcer was saying.

Not sure how much faith I put in those student announcers. Let's see what the Denison and OWU post-game press releases have to say on the subject.

If the announcer is correct, I think it will be because Denison has won the League and/or the Tournament Championship most recently.... giving the tiebreaker to OWU. Shame if true - would love to see the West Champ crowned on the field. Especially when for all intents and purposes it’s also gifting the NCAC’s automatic NCAA bid too.

Too bad these two had to play each other twice the second week of the season. What lays ahead is not exciting. DePauw just beat Wabash 26-6, and they lost to Illinois Wesleyan 32-7 and Elmhurst 18-8. Wittenberg is 1-3 and has lost to Centre, Kenyon and Transylvania, schools that Denison and OWU wouldn't sweat over. If the division has already been decided (hopefully not), there is literally nothing to play for if there's no possible NCAA berth in the distance.

OldWU wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:42 pm Too bad these two had to play each other twice the second week of the season. What lays ahead is not exciting. DePauw just beat Wabash 26-6, and they lost to Illinois Wesleyan 32-7 and Elmhurst 18-8. Wittenberg is 1-3 and has lost to Centre, Kenyon and Transylvania, schools that Denison and OWU wouldn't sweat over. If the division has already been decided (hopefully not), there is literally nothing to play for if there's no possible NCAA berth in the distance.

Hey OldWU .. agree. I think the conference really dropped the ball scheduling these games first. Will be just terrible if indeed one of these teams has nothing left to play for. Bad job. I understand they look at the overall big picture when designating divisions and lacrosse is only 1 of several sports being contested. But still, the men’s lacrosse rivalry is historic and nationally recognized. It doesn’t help the conference if this is the second year in a row that DU and OWU aren’t determining a champion on the field. I doubt very much either team would want to be handed the Championship based on a non playing metric. Denison recap makes no mention of the outcomes bearing on post season. So we’ll have to see if OWU’s sheds some light on this question.

LET THEM PLAY! LET THEM PLAY! Hahahaha

Nosey Ned wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:30 pm Denison recap makes no mention of the outcomes bearing on post season. So we’ll have to see if OWU’s sheds some light on this question.

No light shed, none. Wish that Denison announcer had given some details on the tie-breaker after goal difference. I also scanned the NCAC web site and found nothing to clarify the situation.

These two games definitely should have been scheduled for later in the season. The only true tune-up for the NCAAs these two have is each other.

I feel like it’s been somewhat glossed over with the denison v. OWU excitement but kenyon canceled their allegheny games last week/weekend and postponed their Wednesday game.

Hopefully they can get back on track and get the guys back out there soon.

From an AD at an NCAC school....tie-breaker rules for Lacrosse Division Championship....one representative from each...

Men’s Lacrosse

1. Head-to-Head competition between the tied teams.

2. Point system: Three points for a regulation win, two points for an overtime win, one point for an overtime loss and zero points for a
regulation loss.

3. Goal differential between tied teams with a maximum of a 10-goal difference.

4. Total goal differential among all teams in division with a maximum of a 10-goal difference each game.

5. Coin toss.

So ... OWU and Denison now have the primary goal of not only winning, but of winning by ten, or else heads/tails.
Am I reading that right?

WhiteCarrera wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:57 pm So ... OWU and Denison now have the primary goal of not only winning, but of winning by ten, or else heads/tails.
Am I reading that right?

that's what I was thinking as well...could be some long nights ahead in the NCAC for scoreboard operators and SID's

I don't think Caravana saw the "10-goal max" part

WhiteCarrera wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:03 pm I don't think Caravana saw the "10-goal max" part

Caravana typically “calls off the dogs” and starts emptying the bench in the 2nd Q in these games ( sometimes even Q1). Either he wanted to make certain the 10 goal win was beyond doubt before doing so into the 3rd Q or there is some part of this equation we aren’t aware of. Also in fairness, Denison’s 2s and 3s are themselves very good and probably wanted to take advantage of their opportunities. With the shortened season, there may not be as many chances at significant playing time for the 1s never mind the 2s and 3s.

Regardless not a good look for the conference and the powers that be should make the tiebreaker a 3rd game so running up the score isn’t part of any equation.

Denison played everyone early and often and 16 different players scored. Wabash just isn't any good. DePauw beat them by 20 and 21 goals. OWU and Wittenberg will do the same unless there's some cosmic intervention.

This whole split division concept was created because NCAC was concerned about the two Indiana schools (DePauw and Wabash) and the one Pennsylvania school (Allegheny) having to travel too far to play each other during COVID protocols. They could have easily put Denison in the east and Kenyon in the west and then would have had parity and set up for the two traditionally best teams to meet in the conference playoff. OWU and Denison could have played a regular season game that didn't count in the standings, as OWU and Denison are doing with Wooster.

OldWU - you're right that Wabash still has a lot of room to grow, and there was a sense of Denison letting off the gas.
It's still worth noting that they had a starter setting a record for assists deep into the third.

About the divisions, I think the East/West distinction was established the same for all spring sports, not just lacrosse. As much as some would like it, conference favoritism based on past seasons is pretty bad form -- it just discounts other teams and their potential. No argument that Denison and OWU have established themselves. And I don't think anyone wants to play them twice each, any more than they'd want to play Wabash and Witt twice in football, but not right of a conference to just make assumptions before the season's played, and to the NCAC's credit they didn't do that.

Food for thought --
Here are three other West-dominated championships, affected the same way as men's lacrosse:
14 straight Men's golf titles by OWU or WItt, both in the West,
8 straight Women's Golf shared by DePauw and Witt,
Men's Outdoor Track - only Wabash and OWU since 2008.

Three from other seasons:
15 straight football championships by Wabash or Witt (shared 3X w/ OWU or Denison).
DePauw and Denison have won the last 10 Women's BB titles,
The last 14 Women's XC titles have been in the East,
Men's Indoor Track - only Wabash and OWU since 2008.

Hmmm, Kenyon v Hiram postponed. That's a lot of Kenyon cancellations; makes me think there's a COVID issue in Gambier.

OWU put on a nice run at the end to defeat Witt 16-6, for that all-important 10-goal differential. Just stinks that a coin toss might decide the division winner instead of another Denison-OWU game. Oh well, at least these young men get to play, unlike those at the Ivies.

Highlights from OWU's 16-6 win over Wittenberg on 4/7:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM4Z_HL93Ik

Coaching change coming to at least one NCAC school https://sports.wabash.edu/sports/mens-lacrosse/coaches

Wow was it really necessary for Denison to hang 32 on Wabash??

Not sure about the particulars of this game but 32 is really not that bad against a highly mismatched opponent. You sub in everyone off the bench and they still score. Worse than running up the score is toying with them. I will agree that at some point, it looks bad on the winning team but I’m not sure where exactly that point is.
Now the Colorado Mesa situation from a couple of years ago, little doubt there...

JBFortunato wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:07 pm Wow was it really necessary for Denison to hang 32 on Wabash??

No one likes to run the score up but what’s more disrespectful - and providing no growth for either team - letting your “end of the bench” guys play the game hard and probably score another goal or have them spin it around for 80 seconds and roll it to the corner? I’m not sure what the right answer is but I do know that 20 different Denison players scored and Denison “only” scored 8 in the 3rd quarter and scored 0 in the 4th quarter, employing the former strategy in the 3rd and the later in the 4th. I’m really not sure which is better.

I do know that Coach Caravana has always walked this tightrope with as much respect for the opponents as possible- but it’s tough when your talent so throughly outclasses that of your opponent.

BTW Stockton and John Carroll each won by the exact same score. Unfortunately in many conferences you have this predicament in league play as you’re forced to play inferior teams.