Here we go again with the Face Off

[dawn patrol]

I could solve the problem with clamping and wrestling at the face off x by reinstating one simple rule, allow body checks of the face off men. I don’t care what grip you’re using, nobody is hanging out at the x any longer than they have to when the wing guys have you lined up with a full head of steam. Ask any official who worked games in the 70’s and 80’s how much rougher the game was in that era.

This is similar to Archie Bunker's theory to eliminate skyjackings by arming all the passengers.

[spartanslynx]

I want to see the PLL set-up with the ball higher up in the crosse and perpendicular lines where refs put their feet for a quick and fair set-up.

I also want them to us the draw circle instead of the wings to disrupt the exits.

An innovative alternative is to say that the FOGO can't pick up the before another player has touched it. Like in a Basketball tip off

[Thor1]

I want to see the PLL set-up with the ball higher up in the crosse and perpendicular lines where refs put their feet for a quick and fair set-up.

I also want them to us the draw circle instead of the wings to disrupt the exits.

An innovative alternative is to say that the FOGO can't pick up the before another player has touched it. Like in a Basketball tip off

I agree to some extent. Have the ref line the ball at the top of the opponent’s cross rather than in the throat. That limits clamp opportunities and makes for a quicker exit and more ground play. Allowing blings hits on a fogo is equivalent to allowing dives into the crease right into the goalie. Wing play and a smart fogo are essential parts of the game

[Surfs_Up]

For those saying the face off spend 90 percent on the sideline they have never taken a face off. They literally wrestle with all their strength and then sprint 30-60 yards at a full sprint. They are smoked at the end of the game. End of season their wrists, back, and shoulders are are tweaked. It’s a real position and requires strength, speed, and technique.

Keeping face off guys on until change of possession might be an interesting idea.

[Can Opener]

How many middle aged white guys does it take to change a light bulb that is still working?

Whatever committee is investigating this idea is looking for a cure for no known disease. In 2019 only 5 FO specialists had a winning percentage over 2/3. Of those 5, only 2 played for a top 20 team. Of the top 10 FO guys last year, only 3 played for a top 20 team. https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

Why sacrifice thousands of kids who love the position and 50 years of tradition because every 10 years a TD or Trevor emerges? If you’re anti-FOGO because you don’t like specialization, are you also banging the drum to make goalies play a shift at middie, long sticks play attack, SSDMs play lefty attack? Relax and enjoy the tremendous skill of today’s FO specialists. These are some of the grittiest and mentally toughest kids on the field.

BTW, if you’d like a quick history lesson about how the last major FO change worked out, check out this Sports Illustrated story from 1979.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1979/04/16/f ... ontroversy

[DMac]

As is usually the case, this discussion has gotten way off track. It's not about a dominating FOGO, I don't care how you face it off someone is going to be better at it than everyone else. Whether they stay on the field, "GetOff" immediately, play 90% of the time or 10% of the time, whether the wings come from a circle or line, none of that stuff matters. It's about a manufactured stick that's built with the cabability of doing things that a lacrosse stick is not intended to do. Then if you heat it, shape it just right, and phukk around with it enough so it picks a ball up like a vacuum cleaner, well you've got yourself a real good FOGO stick. Watching a FOGO pressing his stick head to the ground with all his might while ratchetting the shaft like he's trying to undo a nut on an engine is not something you should see on a lacrosse field. Phaup is actually pretty good at that. When I saw him start ratchetting while the sumo dance was going on, I figured he'd likely come up with it and he did a most of the time. You can't let people clamp the ball (or clamp the other guy's stick), it goes against the essence of the game, IMO. The ball should always be free, that's the balance of lacrosse, you let someone hold it/clamp it you change the game. Clamp and rake, very simple solution. In the girl's game the ball is free and in play instantly when the whistle blows on the draw, it should be in the men's game too but they can clamp and ratchett and do a little sumo dance before freeing the ball up for fair play.
Been playing a fair amount of catch with my buddy lately (can't say that includes a whole lot of running), the feel of the stick and passing and catching never really gets old. I use my Alfie Jacques box stick when we play. You sure as hell couldn't bend and ratchett with that stick, and that's the "problem" with the face off. Sticks do things that they shouldn't be able to do, were never intended to do. You shouldn't be able to manipulate the head of the stick so as to help you pick the ball up. Make FOGOs clamp and rake (rake being the key word) and all the other "problems" go away.

[WOMBAT, Mod Emeritus]

[Dip&Dunk]

Offset heads, non-leather stringing, composite shafts, shot clock, No side out substitutions all were accused of changing the essence of the game.

[runrussellrun]

As is usually the case, this discussion has gotten way off track. It's not about a dominating FOGO, I don't care how you face it off someone is going to be better at it than everyone else. Whether they stay on the field, "GetOff" immediately, play 90% of the time or 10% of the time, whether the wings come from a circle or line, none of that stuff matters. It's about a manufactured stick that's built with the cabability of doing things that a lacrosse stick is not intended to do. Then if you heat it, shape it just right, and phukk around with it enough so it picks a ball up like a vacuum cleaner, well you've got yourself a real good FOGO stick. Watching a FOGO pressing his stick head to the ground with all his might while ratchetting the shaft like he's trying to undo a nut on an engine is not something you should see on a lacrosse field. Phaup is actually pretty good at that. When I saw him start ratchetting while the sumo dance was going on, I figured he'd likely come up with it and he did a most of the time. You can't let people clamp the ball (or clamp the other guy's stick), it goes against the essence of the game, IMO. The ball should always be free, that's the balance of lacrosse, you let someone hold it/clamp it you change the game. Clamp and rake, very simple solution. In the girl's game the ball is free and in play instantly when the whistle blows on the draw, it should be in the men's game too but they can clamp and ratchett and do a little sumo dance before freeing the ball up for fair play.
Been playing a fair amount of catch with my buddy lately (can't say that includes a whole lot of running), the feel of the stick and passing and catching never really gets old. I use my Alfie Jacques box stick when we play. You sure as hell couldn't bend and ratchett with that stick, and that's the "problem" with the face off. Sticks do things that they shouldn't be able to do, were never intended to do. You shouldn't be able to manipulate the head of the stick so as to help you pick the ball up. Make FOGOs clamp and rake (rake being the key word) and all the other "problems" go away.

Plenty of games.....get a stop watch. Grab a bowl full of "chocolate" covered almonds....and a stop watch. Count how long the top guys battle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdJNKWzBPGw

FO #one 5:72 seconds from whistle to possession (possession means a team picked up the gb, the refs yell it, moves arms, stats goes in book )

FO # two: 5:09 seconds from whistle to possession

Any difference in the 1989 championship game? with the sticks you worship so much?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C8lP_1qNJM

FO#1 : 5:03 seconds from whistle to possession

FO#2 : 8.5 seconds from whistle to possession.


hmmmmm......

[DMac]

Offset heads, non-leather stringing, composite shafts, shot clock, No side out substitutions all were accused of changing the essence of the game.

No they didn't. The essence of the game is the cradle. I have to be better at cradling the ball and keeping it in my stick than you are at knocking it out of my stick. The ball is free from any holding or pinching, and is in fair play for everyone. This is not the case when FOGOs are pinching and popping, mangling, twisting, reshaping, and completely distorting their sticks (the heads). How many times have you heard a commentator say the FOGO couldn't throw a good pass after coming up with the ball because the head of his stick was so bent out of shape from the faceoff battle? At no time should the ball be held or clamped (whether that be with your thumb, against your chest, or to the ground) and that is what goes against the essence of the game the way the face offs are being done now. Someone is clamping the ball to the ground or holding the other player's stick, neither should happen on a lacrosse field.

[DMac]

Nice ratchett job on the opening face off by TD, fatty.
I guess I'm just imagining the sumo dance and lobster claw like pick ups of the ball.
Carry on.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many middle aged white guys does it take to change a light bulb that is still working?

Whatever committee is investigating this idea is looking for a cure for no known disease. In 2019 only 5 FO specialists had a winning percentage over 2/3. Of those 5, only 2 played for a top 20 team. Of the top 10 FO guys last year, only 3 played for a top 20 team. https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

Why sacrifice thousands of kids who love the position and 50 years of tradition because every 10 years a TD or Trevor emerges? If you’re anti-FOGO because you don’t like specialization, are you also banging the drum to make goalies play a shift at middie, long sticks play attack, SSDMs play lefty attack? Relax and enjoy the tremendous skill of today’s FO specialists. These are some of the grittiest and mentally toughest kids on the field.

BTW, if you’d like a quick history lesson about how the last major FO change worked out, check out this Sports Illustrated story from 1979.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1979/04/16/f ... ontroversy

Not allowing the ball to be carried in the back of the stick was a good rule change. Like I said, the face offs have been cleaner the past three seasons or so. I would leave it alone. If anything, I would not allow clamping and withholding the ball.... but even that doesn’t really bother me. Wing play has picked up since the last rule change.

[wgdsr]

Nice ratchett job on the opening face off by TD, fatty.
I guess I'm just imagining the sumo dance and lobster claw like pick ups of the ball.
Carry on.

the sumo dance is happening bc neither guy has the clamp. that could be made to change by how you set up sticks prior. i'm ok with that part as is. happens for any real length a fraction of the time.

[wgdsr]

How many middle aged white guys does it take to change a light bulb that is still working?

Whatever committee is investigating this idea is looking for a cure for no known disease. In 2019 only 5 FO specialists had a winning percentage over 2/3. Of those 5, only 2 played for a top 20 team. Of the top 10 FO guys last year, only 3 played for a top 20 team. https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

Why sacrifice thousands of kids who love the position and 50 years of tradition because every 10 years a TD or Trevor emerges? If you’re anti-FOGO because you don’t like specialization, are you also banging the drum to make goalies play a shift at middie, long sticks play attack, SSDMs play lefty attack? Relax and enjoy the tremendous skill of today’s FO specialists. These are some of the grittiest and mentally toughest kids on the field.

BTW, if you’d like a quick history lesson about how the last major FO change worked out, check out this Sports Illustrated story from 1979.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1979/04/16/f ... ontroversy

Not allowing the ball to be carried in the back of the stick was a good rule change. Like I said, the face offs have been cleaner the past three seasons or so. I would leave it alone. If anything, I would not allow clamping and withholding the ball.... but even that doesn’t really bother me. Wing play has picked up since the last rule change.

the rules don't allow clamping and withholding the ball.
depending on your ref du jour, they interpret to allow it.
really all they need to do is enforce the rule to eliminate it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How many middle aged white guys does it take to change a light bulb that is still working?

Whatever committee is investigating this idea is looking for a cure for no known disease. In 2019 only 5 FO specialists had a winning percentage over 2/3. Of those 5, only 2 played for a top 20 team. Of the top 10 FO guys last year, only 3 played for a top 20 team. https://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

Why sacrifice thousands of kids who love the position and 50 years of tradition because every 10 years a TD or Trevor emerges? If you’re anti-FOGO because you don’t like specialization, are you also banging the drum to make goalies play a shift at middie, long sticks play attack, SSDMs play lefty attack? Relax and enjoy the tremendous skill of today’s FO specialists. These are some of the grittiest and mentally toughest kids on the field.

BTW, if you’d like a quick history lesson about how the last major FO change worked out, check out this Sports Illustrated story from 1979.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1979/04/16/f ... ontroversy

Not allowing the ball to be carried in the back of the stick was a good rule change. Like I said, the face offs have been cleaner the past three seasons or so. I would leave it alone. If anything, I would not allow clamping and withholding the ball.... but even that doesn’t really bother me. Wing play has picked up since the last rule change.

the rules don't allow clamping and withholding the ball.
depending on your ref du jour, they interpret to allow it.
really all they need to do is enforce the rule to eliminate it.

Yes. I see a lot of FOGOs with the ball trapped and looking up for someone to pop it to. It should be a point of emphasis then. I would leave the rules alone. It’s much better now.

[DMac]

Nice ratchett job on the opening face off by TD, fatty.
I guess I'm just imagining the sumo dance and lobster claw like pick ups of the ball.
Carry on.

the sumo dance is happening bc neither guy has the clamp. that could be made to change by how you set up sticks prior. i'm ok with that part as is. happens for any real length a fraction of the time.

I get that, in which case one, or both, player(s) is holding. The ball is being withheld from play too while the players are in the locked horns position (which shouldn't happen). Whether it''s a small fraction or large fraction of the time, it shouldn't happen at all but it's become a common occurance in the game.
The ball should come out instantly like it does here, regardless of what your technique is.
No locking horns, no clamping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iO44vyBm8s

[Typical Lax Dad]

Nice ratchett job on the opening face off by TD, fatty.
I guess I'm just imagining the sumo dance and lobster claw like pick ups of the ball.
Carry on.

the sumo dance is happening bc neither guy has the clamp. that could be made to change by how you set up sticks prior. i'm ok with that part as is. happens for any real length a fraction of the time.

I get that, in which case one, or both, player(s) is holding. The ball is being withheld from play too while the players are in the locked horns position (which shouldn't happen). Whether it''s a small fraction or large fraction of the time, it shouldn't happen at all but it's become a common occurance in the game.
The ball should come out instantly like it does here, regardless of what your technique is.
No locking horns, no clamping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iO44vyBm8s

I have become a big fan of the woman’s game...
Here is a good face-off clip in the men’s game.

[wgdsr]

Nice ratchett job on the opening face off by TD, fatty.
I guess I'm just imagining the sumo dance and lobster claw like pick ups of the ball.
Carry on.

the sumo dance is happening bc neither guy has the clamp. that could be made to change by how you set up sticks prior. i'm ok with that part as is. happens for any real length a fraction of the time.

I get that, in which case one, or both, player(s) is holding. The ball is being withheld from play too while the players are in the locked horns position (which shouldn't happen). Whether it''s a small fraction or large fraction of the time, it shouldn't happen at all but it's become a common occurance in the game.
The ball should come out instantly like it does here, regardless of what your technique is.
No locking horns, no clamping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iO44vyBm8s

i get why you don't like it, to me i like the variance and it's not too lengthy.
but they are not holding. they are legitimately trying to win the clamp, or be positioned in a loss. sometimes they're "tied" for a bit, most often one is ahead and the other behind. then it's a chess match on strength and technique.
it's once they get the clamp i have any problem. fogos have been given the advantage while withholding the ball from play. and only because refs have allowed it. if they would enforce rules as written, post clamp you'd see a lot more of the gb like scrums and positioning reward like in your immediate example.

[DMac]

Yup, I get all that and you're right, the officials simply need to enforce the rules which I think say clamp AND RAKE. "Problem" solved.

[wgdsr]

at all levels but espec @ nc$$ w/ the 3 violation per half rule, pretty sure a couple early whistles would clean that up straight away!
then lower level officials wouldn't feel compelled to ape it.
not sure why it is what it is.

instead, change the rule every 2 years.