SCOTUS

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WaffleTwineFaceoff
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:50 pm This decision appears to be another supposed effort of the Court to get the Congress to do a better, more explicit and more accountable job...at exactly a time when the Congress cannot do much more than pass the occasional budget to pay themselves.

So, maybe you wanted to cripple "the administrative state." There are certainly horror stories that, standing alone, might well countenance or seem to warrant that result. But in the end, we are left with an impotent Congress, and a very, very powerful federal judiciary.
Perhaps a long overdue siren call for 1) term limits, and 2) elimination of lobbying access to congressional members. Then they might actually do the work their constituents elected them to do?

Is the judiciary to blame for Congress being a dumpster fire? More time in the committee rooms by our elected officials (as opposed to staffers streaming sex from the committee rooms :oops: ) might start to break up the gridlock? Novel concept, I know. :D

And the whole mess, regardless of political affiliation, is certainly demoralizing. I'm not so sure they don't want the public feeling demoralized, divided, and helpless. The way our leaders behave these days doesn't exactly set examples and instill confidence or hope.

Ah, the good old days:

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/p ... ualization
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
a fan
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 1:49 pm Maybe we are talking past one another.

That is my point, Yes, BiB was law, and done by the Legislative Branch, and supported by distillers et al., which is what SCOTUS is saying needs to take place moving further....no?

I would assume that any and all current CFR's will remain grandfathered, and as we move forward they shall be required to follow the SOP of law generation.
We are talking past each other a bit.

I don't mean that the CFR's are simply gone. I mean that multinationals can now sue if they don't like a particular rule, and a judge now decides what the rule is, instead of an expert at a Federal Department.

There is NO WAY this ends well for the average American. These agencies have real specialists, who know what the F they are talking about, and you'd be SHOCKED at how good the industry knowledge is in places like HHS, DoE, DoInterior et. al. Are they perfect? Of course not. But at least they have folks with degrees in relevant fields working there.

What this ruling does is say "bollocks to the experts in their fields, the rules are now determined by a Judge."

And guess how many right wing nutjob judges we have now, YA? And how do those judges rule, generally? Would you say they rule in favor of the Average American? Or in favor or monied interest and corporations over people?

This is just like the legalization of bribery ruling, YA. This cedes even more power to multinationals who can simply sue the EPA as a matter of business, because they don't want to follow expensive rules that keep their neighborhoods from becoming cancer blooms. And because Judges don't know the first thing about cancer causing agents? What are the odds they'll understand what they are ruling on?

This is not good, my friend. Why do you think the rich and Republicans wanted to get rid of Chevron? Some sort of altruistic reasons?

Or because they want more money? And will do anything they can to get more?


...as for my small biz? in what world can I afford to sue the Federal Government. So as usual, these rulings help the haves, and hurt the have nots.
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by a fan »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:25 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:50 pm This decision appears to be another supposed effort of the Court to get the Congress to do a better, more explicit and more accountable job...at exactly a time when the Congress cannot do much more than pass the occasional budget to pay themselves.

So, maybe you wanted to cripple "the administrative state." There are certainly horror stories that, standing alone, might well countenance or seem to warrant that result. But in the end, we are left with an impotent Congress, and a very, very powerful federal judiciary.
Perhaps a long overdue siren call for 1) term limits, and 2) elimination of lobbying access to congressional members. Then they might actually do the work their constituents elected them to do?

Is the judiciary to blame for Congress being a dumpster fire? More time in the committee rooms by our elected officials (as opposed to staffers streaming sex from the committee rooms :oops: ) might start to break up the gridlock? Novel concept, I know. :D

And the whole mess, regardless of political affiliation, is certainly demoralizing. I'm not so sure they don't want the public feeling demoralized, divided, and helpless. The way our leaders behave these days doesn't exactly set examples and instill confidence or hope.

Ah, the good old days:

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/p ... ualization
You can use that EXACT chart to show the growth of the gap between rich and poor.

-Congress pretends they don't agree on how to govern (they do, they''re lying).

-Because of this pretend disagreement, they rush spending bills through that lines their donor's pockets, and government gets bigger, yet less efficient

-Further, they don't raise taxes to pay for the larger government, becuase they're too busy pretending that they don't agree on issues.

-now Government is bigger than ever, and we have a MASSIVE gap between rich and poor in the US because almost none of the spending went to help the working class....it was all funneled to the rich, and to middle men.
jhu72
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by jhu72 »

a fan wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:57 pm
youthathletics wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 1:49 pm Maybe we are talking past one another.

That is my point, Yes, BiB was law, and done by the Legislative Branch, and supported by distillers et al., which is what SCOTUS is saying needs to take place moving further....no?

I would assume that any and all current CFR's will remain grandfathered, and as we move forward they shall be required to follow the SOP of law generation.
We are talking past each other a bit.

I don't mean that the CFR's are simply gone. I mean that multinationals can now sue if they don't like a particular rule, and a judge now decides what the rule is, instead of an expert at a Federal Department.

There is NO WAY this ends well for the average American. These agencies have real specialists, who know what the F they are talking about, and you'd be SHOCKED at how good the industry knowledge is in places like HHS, DoE, DoInterior et. al. Are they perfect? Of course not. But at least they have folks with degrees in relevant fields working there.

What this ruling does is say "bollocks to the experts in their fields, the rules are now determined by a Judge."

And guess how many right wing nutjob judges we have now, YA? And how do those judges rule, generally? Would you say they rule in favor of the Average American? Or in favor or monied interest and corporations over people?

This is just like the legalization of bribery ruling, YA. This cedes even more power to multinationals who can simply sue the EPA as a matter of business, because they don't want to follow expensive rules that keep their neighborhoods from becoming cancer blooms. And because Judges don't know the first thing about cancer causing agents? What are the odds they'll understand what they are ruling on?

This is not good, my friend. Why do you think the rich and Republicans wanted to get rid of Chevron? Some sort of altruistic reasons?

Or because they want more money? And will do anything they can to get more?


...as for my small biz? in what world can I afford to sue the Federal Government. So as usual, these rulings help the haves, and hurt the have nots.
Yup.
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NattyBohChamps04
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by NattyBohChamps04 »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:25 pm Perhaps a long overdue siren call for 1) term limits, and 2) elimination of lobbying access to congressional members. Then they might actually do the work their constituents elected them to do?

Is the judiciary to blame for Congress being a dumpster fire? More time in the committee rooms by our elected officials (as opposed to staffers streaming sex from the committee rooms :oops: ) might start to break up the gridlock? Novel concept, I know. :D

And the whole mess, regardless of political affiliation, is certainly demoralizing. I'm not so sure they don't want the public feeling demoralized, divided, and helpless. The way our leaders behave these days doesn't exactly set examples and instill confidence or hope.

Ah, the good old days:

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/p ... ualization
What do you think caused the changes? Honest question.

True the judiciary is not responsible for congress. But it is still an extension of the divisiveness and partisanship that plagues Congress. And now they just shifted a lot of power from the executive branch to the Judicial. There wont be a reduction in government as a result of this decision.

As far as lobbying, Citizens United wasn't the only thing.
But it was a turning point in accelerating the division with the injection of untold source-unknown cash in politics. And we all know who was responsible for that..
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by a fan »

NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:01 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:25 pm Perhaps a long overdue siren call for 1) term limits, and 2) elimination of lobbying access to congressional members. Then they might actually do the work their constituents elected them to do?

Is the judiciary to blame for Congress being a dumpster fire? More time in the committee rooms by our elected officials (as opposed to staffers streaming sex from the committee rooms :oops: ) might start to break up the gridlock? Novel concept, I know. :D

And the whole mess, regardless of political affiliation, is certainly demoralizing. I'm not so sure they don't want the public feeling demoralized, divided, and helpless. The way our leaders behave these days doesn't exactly set examples and instill confidence or hope.

Ah, the good old days:

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/p ... ualization
What do you think caused the changes? Honest question.

True the judiciary is not responsible for congress. But it is still an extension of the divisiveness and partisanship that plagues Congress. And now they just shifted a lot of power from the executive branch to the Judicial. There wont be a reduction in government as a result of this decision.

As far as lobbying, Citizens United wasn't the only thing.
But it was a turning point in accelerating the division with the injection of untold source-unknown cash in politics. And we all know who was responsible for that..
That ruling let foreign governments buy elections.
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youthathletics
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:32 pm
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 6:01 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:25 pm Perhaps a long overdue siren call for 1) term limits, and 2) elimination of lobbying access to congressional members. Then they might actually do the work their constituents elected them to do?

Is the judiciary to blame for Congress being a dumpster fire? More time in the committee rooms by our elected officials (as opposed to staffers streaming sex from the committee rooms :oops: ) might start to break up the gridlock? Novel concept, I know. :D

And the whole mess, regardless of political affiliation, is certainly demoralizing. I'm not so sure they don't want the public feeling demoralized, divided, and helpless. The way our leaders behave these days doesn't exactly set examples and instill confidence or hope.

Ah, the good old days:

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/p ... ualization
What do you think caused the changes? Honest question.

True the judiciary is not responsible for congress. But it is still an extension of the divisiveness and partisanship that plagues Congress. And now they just shifted a lot of power from the executive branch to the Judicial. There wont be a reduction in government as a result of this decision.

As far as lobbying, Citizens United wasn't the only thing.
But it was a turning point in accelerating the division with the injection of untold source-unknown cash in politics. And we all know who was responsible for that..
That ruling let foreign governments buy elections.
Goodness....you've already seen this to bitter nth degree, does it also steal little kids ice-cream cones and lolipops? ;)
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
DMac
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by DMac »

You guys (not one woman hangin' out at the Water Cooler...surely we get balanced points of view and opinions here) keep an eye on the goings on in the world and politics a whole lot more than I do, so if you see the SCOTUS did what they long ago should have done and make direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription drugs illegal, let me know. The war on drugs has very strange rules.
Consumer drug advertising is not very common globally. The United States and New Zealand are the only two countries in the world where direct-to-consumer (DTC) advertising of prescription drugs is legal.
The ads I see absolutely should not be allowed.
The little pill with the big story to tell.
Get the music and dancing with the fun
filled gathering of happy, smiling folks.
Living in fantasy land with the little pill.
Thi$ $hould not be happening
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by a fan »

DMac wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 7:20 pm You guys (not one woman hangin' out at the Water Cooler...surely we get balanced points of view and opinions here) keep an eye on the goings on in the world and politics a whole lot more than I do, so if you see the SCOTUS did what they long ago should have done and make direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription drugs illegal, let me know. The war on drugs has very strange rules.
Consumer drug advertising is not very common globally. The United States and New Zealand are the only two countries in the world where direct-to-consumer (DTC) advertising of prescription drugs is legal.
The ads I see absolutely should not be allowed.
The little pill with the big story to tell.
Get the music and dancing with the fun
filled gathering of happy, smiling folks.
Living in fantasy land with the little pill.
Thi$ $hould not be happening
American's still think that our Health system makes sense, Dmac. I don't get how anyone making less than $300K per year would be happy with our system. But what do I know?

Middle men. Profits. That takes priority here, and will until citizens say otherwise.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 5:25 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:50 pm This decision appears to be another supposed effort of the Court to get the Congress to do a better, more explicit and more accountable job...at exactly a time when the Congress cannot do much more than pass the occasional budget to pay themselves.

So, maybe you wanted to cripple "the administrative state." There are certainly horror stories that, standing alone, might well countenance or seem to warrant that result. But in the end, we are left with an impotent Congress, and a very, very powerful federal judiciary.
Perhaps a long overdue siren call for 1) term limits, and 2) elimination of lobbying access to congressional members. Then they might actually do the work their constituents elected them to do?

Is the judiciary to blame for Congress being a dumpster fire? More time in the committee rooms by our elected officials (as opposed to staffers streaming sex from the committee rooms :oops: ) might start to break up the gridlock? Novel concept, I know. :D

And the whole mess, regardless of political affiliation, is certainly demoralizing. I'm not so sure they don't want the public feeling demoralized, divided, and helpless. The way our leaders behave these days doesn't exactly set examples and instill confidence or hope.

Ah, the good old days:

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/p ... ualization
No, I don't blame the judiciary for Congress's paralysis...except to the extent of allowing partisan gerrymandering to be beyond judicial review. This has, in fact, resulted in the building of districts that absorb just enough opposition votes for the opposition to both lose and squander votes, dilute them to nothing, and the incumbent to be assured of winning forever. That in turn has resulted in districts in which the legislator need not govern, only communicate, her or his loathing for the "other side." Cawthorn, Jordan, Boebert: these are the result of this process. Even putting aside party affiliation, there are too many members of Congress who now don't govern, can't legislate, and simply communicate division.

I have always had misgivings about term limits, because I think the job can be hard, takes time to learn, and believed that some states could use the advantages of seniority, etc. But just as the corporations regulated by the administrative agencies usually figure a way to capture the agency, the lobbyists pretty much own Congress, and there appears to be, after all, no meaningful lobby for working people.

And you are right about our current near bankruptcy of leadership.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Postscript: The New Experts are plotting our course -- to more litigation and more "effective" lobbying -- Oh joy!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... -lobbying/

"Mere hours after the Supreme Court sharply curbed the power of federal agencies, conservatives and corporate lobbyists began plotting how to harness the favorable ruling in a redoubled quest to whittle down climate, finance, health, labor and technology regulations in Washington.

The early strategizing underscored the magnitude of the justices’ landmark decision, which rattled the nation’s capital and now appears poised to touch off years of lawsuits that could redefine the U.S. government’s role in modern American life.

The legal bombshell arrived Friday, when the six conservatives on the Supreme Court invalidated a decades-old legal precedent that federal judges should defer to regulatory agencies in cases where the law is ambiguous or Congress fails to specify its intentions. Writing for the majority, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. described the framework as “unworkable,” at one point arguing in his opinion that it “prevents judges from judging.”

Many conservatives and businesses long had chafed over the legal doctrine, known as Chevron deference after a case involving the oil giant in the 1980s. They had encouraged the Supreme Court over the past year to dismantle the precedent in a flood of legal filings, then rejoiced when the nation’s highest judicial panel sided with them this week — paving the way for industry to commence a renewed assault against the power and reach of the executive branch.

“This means that agencies are going to have a hard time defending their legal positions,” said Daryl Joseffer, the executive vice president and chief counsel at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Litigation Center, which filed an amicus brief in the case. “That means it will be easier to challenge some regulations than it used to be. That obviously has a real impact on whether it’s worth bringing some cases.”

Some of the most powerful corporate interests under the government’s watch predicted the decision might aid in their ongoing legal clashes with the Biden administration over its policies to cancel student debt, improve overtime pay, ensure net neutrality, protect waterways from pollution and enhance investor safeguards, including the government’s nascent work to regulate cryptocurrency.

“Right now, I think a lot of folks out there in trade associations, business associations, are thinking about that,” said Beth Milito, the executive director of the legal arm at the National Federation of Independent Business, a Washington-based lobbying group. “Should we reexamine any ongoing litigation or aggressive investigation in light of this decision? Are there new areas of attack we can now raise?”

NFIB already has filed or joined multiple lawsuits against the Biden administration, including two recent cases targeting federal rules that could enhance workers’ benefits and expand overtime pay. Going forward, the group expects lawyers to “raise the decision” on Chevron with judges as they weigh whether the Labor Department repeatedly overstepped its authorities, Milito said.

But she predicted the most lasting consequence of the Supreme Court’s ruling might be that it deters some federal agencies from issuing rules in the first place, perhaps convincing them to “put their pen down and pause.”

“We want agencies to stay within their lane,” Milito said.

By defeating Chevron, conservative policymakers and corporate lobbyists scored their most significant legal victory in an aggressive, decades-long campaign to curtail the reach of the federal government. Earlier in the week, the court’s conservatives also issued rulings that weakened federal climate regulations and made it harder for agencies including the Securities and Exchange Commission to bring enforcement actions, drawing further celebration from the industries facing such scrutiny.

“I think what this means is a level playing field for anyone who is sued by a federal agency, or who sues a federal agency,” said Mark Chenoweth, the president of the New Civil Liberties Alliance, which represented one of the plaintiffs in the Supreme Court case that overturned Chevron. The group has received millions of dollars from the conservative political network of billionaire Charles Koch and his late brother, David, and it represents clients in other lawsuits that seek to quash federal regulations.

Chenoweth said the loss of Chevron, in particular, means that “folks will be able to count on having an unbiased, independent court assess whether their arguments, or their interpretation of the law, is better than the agency’s interpretation of the law.”

While the exact legal implications may take years to untangle, conservative advocates and industry lobbyists — some tied to the Supreme Court fight — signaled they were eager to leverage it or bring fresh lawsuits.

The National Association of Manufacturers, a lobbying group whose board of directors includes top executives from Dow, Caterpillar, ExxonMobil and Johnson & Johnson, specifically called attention to what it described as regulatory overreach at the SEC and the Environmental Protection Agency. The group’s president, Jay Timmons, said in a statement that NAM would soon be “on the field … to fight back new regulations we are facing today as well as whatever may come our way in the next administration.”

The American Bankers Association, meanwhile, said it would “continue to fight to ensure that bank regulators follow the law every time they exercise their powers.” The group, whose members include Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase and Wells Fargo, has sued the Biden administration in recent months over rules meant to limit the fees they can charge customers who overdraw their bank accounts. (It did not respond to a request for comment.)

And the National Association of Home Builders, which represents thousands of builders and suppliers in the housing industry, said it might benefit from the justices’ decision in a fight with the federal government over new environmental regulations. NAHB has joined with other housing groups to sue the EPA over rules targeting pollution in small waterways, arguing its approach oversteps the agency’s authority and makes it harder to construct new housing.

Tom Ward, the vice president for legal advocacy for the association, said he expected NAHB to “send this opinion” to a judge hearing the water-related case in Texas to “remind the court now there is no deference to the agency.”

The legal wrangling ultimately served to underscore a harsh reality in Washington: Federal agencies increasingly have taken a more active role in crafting policy because of partisan gridlock in Congress. Political divisions often have prevented lawmakers from fully attending to the nation’s most intractable problems, creating a void that the sprawling regulatory bureaucracy has tried to fill, sometimes in ways that draw sharp opposition.

“I’ve sat in the room as legislation has been marked up, and the way legislation gets through many times is to be purposefully imprecise,” said Tom Wheeler, the former Democratic chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, who faced a legal onslaught by internet providers over his agency’s work during the Obama administration to interpret its foundational 1930s-era telecom law.

Wheeler said the regulatory gaps have been especially glaring in technology, since Congress has failed to articulate clear new rules on some of the most cutting-edge issues in the digital age. Without guidance from legislation or deference from the courts, federal agencies may now struggle to respond to novel challenges — like the rise of artificial intelligence — as they find themselves newly unable “to address anything unless the Congress addresses it,” he said.

With federal agencies losing a pivotal line of defense, many legal experts, consumer advocates and Democratic lawmakers said they feared the consequences could prove wide ranging.

The American Cancer Society joined a wide array of public health groups this week to warn about the prospect of “significant disruption” to insurance programs, federal food and drug review systems and patients’ health. Tax experts previously predicted the end of Chevron could “create a real mess” for the Internal Revenue Service as it looks to implement recent, congressionally mandated changes to the tax code. And some climate advocates, including the nonprofit Climate Power, fretted that the Supreme Court had made it “harder to protect our air and water.”

“Every time the court has taken a step in this direction, we have seen [lawsuits] follow,” said Sharon Block, a professor at Harvard Law School who formerly served as the administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs under Biden. “They’re now just invitations everywhere to challenge the actions of federal agencies when they’re trying to help people.”

On Capitol Hill, meanwhile, some Republican lawmakers said they hoped to accelerate what they saw as the “beginning of the end of the administrative state.” In a joint statement, House Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) joined other GOP leaders in pledging that the chamber’s committees would soon be “conducting oversight to ensure agencies follow the Court’s ruling and no longer engage in excessive interpretive license in administering statutes under their jurisdiction.”

Before the Supreme Court ruling, Johnson and other Republicans formally submitted a legal brief encouraging the justices to invalidate the precedent set in Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council, arguing last July that federal agencies should “possess only those powers given to them by Congress.” On Friday, some GOP lawmakers even circulated a menu of Biden-era policies they hoped to scrutinize, including the administration’s work on “energy and agricultural production” as well as Title IX, an anti-gender-discrimination law that the Department of Education recently expanded to protect transgender students.

“It’s time for lawmakers to take back our legislative power,” said Rep. Kevin Hern (R-Okla.), the author of the list of policies and leader of the Republican Study Committee, the largest block of GOP lawmakers in the chamber. “This is an opportunity for us to be better legislators — and ensure that unelected bureaucrats aren’t doing that job for us.”
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youthathletics
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by youthathletics »

Sounds like the SCOTUS just threw the legal career minded folks and legislative branch a bone to chew on in perpetuity. No shortage of legal work for for foreseeable future.

It’s time for lawmakers to take back our legislative power,” said Rep. Kevin Hern (R-Okla.), the author of the list of policies and leader of the Republican Study Committee, the largest block of GOP lawmakers in the chamber. “This is an opportunity for us to be better legislators — and ensure that unelected bureaucrats aren’t doing that job for us.”
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 9:20 am Sounds like the SCOTUS just threw the legal career minded folks and legislative branch a bone to chew on in perpetuity. No shortage of legal work for for foreseeable future.

It’s time for lawmakers to take back our legislative power,” said Rep. Kevin Hern (R-Okla.), the author of the list of policies and leader of the Republican Study Committee, the largest block of GOP lawmakers in the chamber. “This is an opportunity for us to be better legislators — and ensure that unelected bureaucrats aren’t doing that job for us.”
Agreed; it is just hard to see the Congress we now have actually doing the job. And Congressman Hern better be OK with "unelected judges" with life tenure and theoretically no impact from politics evaluating the job they are doing.
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youthathletics
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by youthathletics »

A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

youthathletics wrote: Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:53 pm Anothers POV: https://x.com/realspikecohen/status/180 ... a82I2GssRg
Yes, that summarizes one way of looking at it. The test case that went to the SCOTUS was a big stretch by Fisheries, easy to plot back to the enabling legislation and not see anything like clear authorization. But his assurance that this will result in good things only is, I think, pretty aggressive and ideological (and of course that's OK; that's a not unreasonable view).

And seriously, let's talk in five or ten years, and see if Congress has taken on all of the very good things that administrators hired by both parties once did, but this time in clear and unmistakable legislative prose. It sounds good: make legislators do their jobs, be accountable to their experiments, and allow the courts to say what the law means. But, there is the real possibility that Congress is not up to, for various reasons, addressing in unmistakable language, the complicated problems of modern life. Imagine a world without EPA or ATF and Congress unable to legislate in those areas effectively...because it may be coming.

Thanks for this very interesting and reasonable discussion.
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WaffleTwineFaceoff
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:30 am
Imagine a world without the ATF.
When I do, this happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sf_JkSAy4Y
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:48 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:30 am
Imagine a world without the ATF.
When I do, this happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sf_JkSAy4Y
Hah!! You fake an orgasm? Wow. So a world without EPA would have you...what?

Again, we shall see what happens.
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WaffleTwineFaceoff
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:54 am
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:48 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:30 am
Imagine a world without the ATF.
When I do, this happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sf_JkSAy4Y
Hah!! You fake an orgasm? Wow. So a world without EPA would have you...what?

Again, we shall see what happens.
A) how do you know it was fake? B) I never said the EPA. C) We shall indeed see what happens.

Watching the video from the link by YA above certainly makes it patently clear, at least in the case of bureaucrats like the one shown, that being forced to defer to them and their ilk's "expertise" is an insult to us all and a complete waste of taxpayer resources. The big question is how we separate the wheat from chaff experts? I'm going to make a bold supposition: there is about 100x the amount of chaff than wheat.
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
Seacoaster(1)
Posts: 5307
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:54 am
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:48 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:30 am
Imagine a world without the ATF.
When I do, this happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sf_JkSAy4Y
Hah!! You fake an orgasm? Wow. So a world without EPA would have you...what?

Again, we shall see what happens.
A) how do you know it was fake? B) I never said the EPA. C) We shall indeed see what happens.

Watching the video from the link by YA above certainly makes it patently clear, at least in the case of bureaucrats like the one shown, that being forced to defer to them and their ilk's "expertise" is an insult to us all and a complete waste of taxpayer resources. The big question is how we separate the wheat from chaff experts? I'm going to make a bold supposition: there is about 100x the amount of chaff than wheat.
I'm pretty sure the scene in the movie was about a fake orgasm. I used the EPA as a step further, and as a joke that didn't work, I guess.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you say. I just wonder where the real expertise will come from, how it will be implemented, and how the courts will determine the manner in which it should be evaluated when confronted with competing interests and viewpoints. Only time will tell. But the reality that the world has very complicated problems will remain.
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WaffleTwineFaceoff
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon May 01, 2023 9:10 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:58 am
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 9:52 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:54 am
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 8:48 am
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2024 6:30 am
Imagine a world without the ATF.
When I do, this happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sf_JkSAy4Y
Hah!! You fake an orgasm? Wow. So a world without EPA would have you...what?

Again, we shall see what happens.
A) how do you know it was fake? B) I never said the EPA. C) We shall indeed see what happens.

Watching the video from the link by YA above certainly makes it patently clear, at least in the case of bureaucrats like the one shown, that being forced to defer to them and their ilk's "expertise" is an insult to us all and a complete waste of taxpayer resources. The big question is how we separate the wheat from chaff experts? I'm going to make a bold supposition: there is about 100x the amount of chaff than wheat.
I'm pretty sure the scene in the movie was about a fake orgasm. I used the EPA as a step further, and as a joke that didn't work, I guess.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you say. I just wonder where the real expertise will come from, how it will be implemented, and how the courts will determine the manner in which it should be evaluated when confronted with competing interests and viewpoints. Only time will tell. But the reality that the world has very complicated problems will remain.
I was identifying with the little old lady at the end of the clip. I think it was Rob Reiner's mother.

And I'm hoping the country that was able to put men on the moon, or at least create convincing video coverage faking a moonwalk, will be able to scrounge up some expertise. EPA is an example of a pretty good agency with what seems like some pretty good experts. So there is hope.
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
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