Orange Duce

[a fan]

I meant regarding impeachment.

I didn't, from the start

Touche.

[old salt]

Trump has a Trump Doctrine...that is laughable for sure!!

Trump admits he held up Ukraine military aid so allies would pay their share

“Other countries should also pay because, frankly, it affects them more. I mean, that’s a barrier. That’s a wall between Russia and the UK. And they don’t pay,” Trump said during a meeting Tuesday with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the United Nations. “And why are they not paying? Why is it always the United States that’s paying?”

“I’d withhold agai​n​. And I’ll continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine​,” he said, calling out Germany and France.

EU-Ukraine relations - factsheet

"Since 2014, the EU and the European Financial Institutions have mobilised a package of more than €15 billion in grants and loans to support the reform process, with strong conditionality on continued progress."

Chaff. Your EU fact sheet is not military aid. The EU is not providing lethal military aid & restricts it's loans & grants for that purpose.

That's what makes the US aid different. Things like the Javelin anti-tank weapons.

Aid is aid...if it is earmarked for butter, use the other pocket for bullets.

The EU aid is conditioned. It's restricted from use to purchase lethal military aid. The EU restricts such sales to Ukraine.

[foreverlax]

Trump has a Trump Doctrine...that is laughable for sure!!

Trump admits he held up Ukraine military aid so allies would pay their share

“Other countries should also pay because, frankly, it affects them more. I mean, that’s a barrier. That’s a wall between Russia and the UK. And they don’t pay,” Trump said during a meeting Tuesday with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the United Nations. “And why are they not paying? Why is it always the United States that’s paying?”

“I’d withhold agai​n​. And I’ll continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine​,” he said, calling out Germany and France.

EU-Ukraine relations - factsheet

"Since 2014, the EU and the European Financial Institutions have mobilised a package of more than €15 billion in grants and loans to support the reform process, with strong conditionality on continued progress."

Chaff. Your EU fact sheet is not military aid. The EU is not providing lethal military aid & restricts it's loans & grants for that purpose.

That's what makes the US aid different. Things like the Javelin anti-tank weapons.

Aid is aid...if it is earmarked for butter, use the other pocket for bullets.

The EU aid is conditioned. It's restricted from use to purchase lethal military aid. The EU restricts such sales to Ukraine.

Thanks for making my point....that Ukraine has gotten billions from the EU.

[old salt]

Trump has a Trump Doctrine...that is laughable for sure!!

Trump admits he held up Ukraine military aid so allies would pay their share

“Other countries should also pay because, frankly, it affects them more. I mean, that’s a barrier. That’s a wall between Russia and the UK. And they don’t pay,” Trump said during a meeting Tuesday with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the United Nations. “And why are they not paying? Why is it always the United States that’s paying?”

“I’d withhold agai​n​. And I’ll continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine​,” he said, calling out Germany and France.

EU-Ukraine relations - factsheet

"Since 2014, the EU and the European Financial Institutions have mobilised a package of more than €15 billion in grants and loans to support the reform process, with strong conditionality on continued progress."

Chaff. Your EU fact sheet is not military aid. The EU is not providing lethal military aid & restricts it's loans & grants for that purpose.

That's what makes the US aid different. Things like the Javelin anti-tank weapons.

Aid is aid...if it is earmarked for butter, use the other pocket for bullets.

The EU aid is conditioned. It's restricted from use to purchase lethal military aid. The EU restricts such sales to Ukraine.

Thanks for making my point....that Ukraine has gotten billions from the EU.

Which they cannot use to purchase lethal military aid, which is what the US is providing.
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 13769.html

[ggait]

According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the top 10 donors in gross overseas development assistance for Ukraine in 2016-2017 are:

European Institutions ($425.2 million)
United States ($204.4 million)
Germany ($189.8 million)
Japan ($180.8 million)
Global Fund to fight diseases ($44.8 million)
Canada ($44.5 million)
Poland ($42.5 million)
Sweden ($34.6 million)
Britain ($31.6 million)
Switzerland ($29.6 million)

Despite those facts, here's Trump:

"I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it's something that you should really ask them about. When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything. A lot of the European countries are the same way so I think it's something you want to look at but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine."

[foreverlax]

Trump has a Trump Doctrine...that is laughable for sure!!

Trump admits he held up Ukraine military aid so allies would pay their share

“Other countries should also pay because, frankly, it affects them more. I mean, that’s a barrier. That’s a wall between Russia and the UK. And they don’t pay,” Trump said during a meeting Tuesday with British Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the United Nations. “And why are they not paying? Why is it always the United States that’s paying?”

“I’d withhold agai​n​. And I’ll continue to withhold until such time as Europe and other nations contribute to Ukraine​,” he said, calling out Germany and France.

EU-Ukraine relations - factsheet

"Since 2014, the EU and the European Financial Institutions have mobilised a package of more than €15 billion in grants and loans to support the reform process, with strong conditionality on continued progress."

Chaff. Your EU fact sheet is not military aid. The EU is not providing lethal military aid & restricts it's loans & grants for that purpose.

That's what makes the US aid different. Things like the Javelin anti-tank weapons.

Aid is aid...if it is earmarked for butter, use the other pocket for bullets.

The EU aid is conditioned. It's restricted from use to purchase lethal military aid. The EU restricts such sales to Ukraine.

Thanks for making my point....that Ukraine has gotten billions from the EU.

Which they cannot use to purchase lethal military aid, which is what the US is providing.
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articl ... 13769.html

Which I haven't suggested otherwise.....Trump's point was that no one sends Ukraine money, which is false.

[old salt]

Chaff. This is all about military aid. That's what Trump is talking about.

...& per ggait's stats, the US gives more total aid than Germany or any other country.

How many military trainers in Ukraine do the EU nations provide, compared to the US ?
https://www.france24.com/en/20150417-hu ... ve-ukraine

[ggait]

Jeez Salty

United States ($204.4 million)
Germany ($189.8 million)

"Much more than the European countries are doing." False. Germany and USA are close to even. And USA is WAY behind if you tally up what all the Euros together are doing.

"Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk." False.

"When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything." False.

[old salt]

Jeez Salty

United States ($204.4 million)
Germany ($189.8 million)

"Much more than the European countries are doing." False. Germany and USA are close to even. And USA is WAY behind if you tally up what all the Euros together are doing.

"Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk." False.

"When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything." False.

Who's doing more to help Ukraine in their war with Russia ? What military aid is Germany providing ?

The subject of this " scandal ". & Trump's discussion with Zelensky, is military aid to Ukraine. Specifically lethal military aid.

You're just popping chaff, as a diversion.

[foreverlax]

Jeez Salty

United States ($204.4 million)
Germany ($189.8 million)

"Much more than the European countries are doing." False. Germany and USA are close to even. And USA is WAY behind if you tally up what all the Euros together are doing.

"Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk." False.

"When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything." False.

Who's doing more to help Ukraine in their war with Russia ? What military aid is Germany providing ?

The subject of this " scandal ". & Trump's discussion with Zelensky, is military aid to Ukraine. Specifically lethal military aid.

You're just popping chaff, as a diversion.

So if it was such a big deal, why was the money delayed for so long?

Why was no one outside of the WH aware?

[old salt]

Jeez Salty

United States ($204.4 million)
Germany ($189.8 million)

"Much more than the European countries are doing." False. Germany and USA are close to even. And USA is WAY behind if you tally up what all the Euros together are doing.

"Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk." False.

"When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything." False.

Who's doing more to help Ukraine in their war with Russia ? What military aid is Germany providing ?

The subject of this " scandal ". & Trump's discussion with Zelensky, is military aid to Ukraine. Specifically lethal military aid.

You're just popping chaff, as a diversion.

So if it was such a big deal, why was the money delayed for so long?

Why was no one outside of the WH aware?

Based on the WP's unnamed WH sources -- Trump was consistently grousing about the US being the only NATO ally providing lethal aid. He brought it up at every meeting on the issue.

The aid did not have to be released until 30 Sep. Maybe Trump needed to be convinced personally by Zelensky. Maybe he intended to withold it until his UN speech & meetings, so he could hector our NATO partners to do more. Or withhold it until Zelensky's visit so he could make it a big PR deal.

Maybe the WB report prompted him to finally act.

[a fan]

And maybe Obama and Co. lied about the video causing Benghazi because that's what they really thought.

Excuses for one party from you, condemnation and no benefit of the doubt for the other. Got it.

Dude, Trump and Giuliani admitted that they told the UKr President to look for dirt on a rival. There doesn't need to be a quid pro quo.

Is this ok with you? Yes or no?

[foreverlax]

Jeez Salty

United States ($204.4 million)
Germany ($189.8 million)

"Much more than the European countries are doing." False. Germany and USA are close to even. And USA is WAY behind if you tally up what all the Euros together are doing.

"Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk." False.

"When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything." False.

Who's doing more to help Ukraine in their war with Russia ? What military aid is Germany providing ?

The subject of this " scandal ". & Trump's discussion with Zelensky, is military aid to Ukraine. Specifically lethal military aid.

You're just popping chaff, as a diversion.

So if it was such a big deal, why was the money delayed for so long?

Why was no one outside of the WH aware?

Based on the WP's unnamed WH sources -- Trump was consistently grousing about the US being the only NATO ally providing lethal aid. He brought it up at every meeting on the issue.

The aid did not have to be released until 30 Sep. Maybe Trump needed to be convinced personally by Zelensky. Maybe he intended to withold it until his UN speech & meetings, so he could hector our NATO partners to do more. Or withhold it until Zelensky's visit so he could make it a big PR deal.

Maybe the WB report prompted him to finally act.

I am talking about back in Feb and then again in May.

So this has gone from
a. no reason
b. they dont need the money
b. corruption
c. no one give Ukraine any money.

[old salt]

And maybe Obama and Co. lied about the video causing Benghazi because that's what they really thought.

Excuses for one party from you, condemnation and no benefit of the doubt for the other. Got it.

Dude, Trump and Giuliani admitted that they told the UKr President to look for dirt on a rival. There doesn't need to be a quid pro quo.

Is this ok with you? Yes or no?

US military aid to Ukraine has been a burr under Trump's saddle since the campaign. Remember when the GOP platform plank was proof of collusion ?
I share Trump's frustration with the EUroburghers doing nothing to help Ukraine militarily while building Nordstream2 to hurt Ukraine & strengthen Russia. The EUros are playing us for suckers, letting us defend them AND Ukraine, while they trade with both. Trump & I have both been complaining about this since the campaign.

Trump & Rudy asked Zelensky to co-operate with Barr on the ongoing DoJ investigation into the origins of Crossfire Hurricane.

You're just like Nancy & the (D)'s. Demanding an answer before your case falls apart.
We haven't even read the WB's report or forthcoming testimony.
Let's see what the faux impeachment inquiry show trials reveal.

[foreverlax]

"Trump & Rudy asked Zelensky to co-operate with the ongoing DoJ investigation into the origins of Crossfire Hurricane"

How could you possibly know that...when you have no idea if there is an active investigation.

[a fan]

You're just like Nancy & the (D)'s. Demanding an answer before your case falls apart.
We haven't even read the WB's report or forthcoming testimony.

This is exactly what I'm talking about...."we'll see. Be patient".

I'm not talking about either the whistleblower, or arms to the Ukraine, or Nancy Pelosi. For those things? Yep, it remains to be seen.

But that's not what I'm asking you.

What I'm asking you is: Your President, and his personal lawyer, told you that he asked a foreign leader to investigate a political rival and his son during a campaign.

Are you ok with that, or not? It's a simple question.

[old salt]

You're just like Nancy & the (D)'s. Demanding an answer before your case falls apart.
We haven't even read the WB's report or forthcoming testimony.

This is exactly what I'm talking about...."we'll see. Be patient".

I'm not talking about either the whistleblower, or arms to the Ukraine, or Nancy Pelosi. For those things? Yep, it remains to be seen.

But that's not what I'm asking you.

What I'm asking you is: Your President, and his personal lawyer, told you that he asked a foreign leader to investigate a political rival and his son during a campaign.

Are you ok with that, or not? It's a simple question.

In the context of their entire (supposedly classified) conversation, I'm ok with it.
Did you read the entire conversation ? There was a back & forth in which Zelensky said he was anxious to co-operate with the DoJ investigations.
Zelensky just confirmed in their press conf that he was not pressured, even though he didn't want to get dragged into our relection politics.

[a fan]

In the context of their entire conversation, I'm ok with it.
Did you read the entire conversation ? There was a back & forth in which Zelensky said he was anxious to co-operate in the investigations.
Zelensky just confirmed in their press conf that he was not pressured, even though he didn't want to get dragged into our relection politics.

First of all, that's not a verbatim transcript, even if Trump's crew didn't scrub it.

Second of all, this means you think it is ok for Pelosi and others to call every leader in the world, and ask them to investigate Trump, and withhold aid or favors if they don't come through....only do it sneakily so there's no iron clad proof she did that. Which is veeery easy to do, obviously.

Not only is that disgusting and unethical, it's illegal. You can't involve foreign governments in campaigns. It's made all the worse because Trump's lawyer admitted to doing it, too. Giuliani isn't a Federal employee, and can't possibly pretend this was simply diplomatic work.

Third of all, I appreciate your honesty, but boy, we have a veeeeery different moral foundation. That's been the biggest surprise with you and everything Trump.

If I had known this is how you think, our interactions during the 8 years of Obama would have been entirely different.

[old salt]

In the context of their entire conversation, I'm ok with it.
Did you read the entire conversation ? There was a back & forth in which Zelensky said he was anxious to co-operate in the investigations.
Zelensky just confirmed in their press conf that he was not pressured, even though he didn't want to get dragged into our relection politics.

First of all, that's not a verbatim transcript, even if Trump's crew didn't scrub it.

Second of all, this means you think it is ok for Pelosi and others to call every leader in the world, and ask them to investigate Trump, and withhold aid or favors if they don't come through....only do it sneakily so there's no iron clad proof she did that. Which is veeery easy to do, obviously.

Not only is that disgusting and unethical, it's illegal. You can't involve foreign governments in campaigns. It's made all the worse because Trump's lawyer admitted to doing it, too. Giuliani isn't a Federal employee, and can't possibly pretend this was simply diplomatic work.

Third of all, I appreciate your honesty, but boy, we have a veeeeery different moral foundation. That's been the biggest surprise with you and everything Trump.

If I had known this is how you think, our interactions during the 8 years of Obama would have been entirely different.

As I posted in the other thread :

No need for Pelosi to call. The DNC's law firm has Fusion GPS on speed dial.
They're a proven provider of top notch oppo.

It's the IC's official summary of the call. An amalgam of several note taking officials.
Surely as official as Comey's memos. Approved by the Ukrainian president.

I don't recall your revulsion with our allies intel services involvement in our 2016 campaign.

[a fan]

You talking about GPS?

Dude. There's a search button. It's all right there for you.