January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[jhu72]

The fact of this review on Immunity has been taken by SCOTUS is the perfect softball for Cannon to close down HER case pending the results of the Immunity decision. Trump's lawyers in Florida will certainly ask for this on Friday. They made similar, if not identical, immunity claims in Cannon's court.

..

I think the crux of the Florida case involves post presidency action for which Trump would have no viable claim for immunity. Some of the case, though, may involve actions he took (taking the documents) while he was still president.

Assuming some significant part of the case involves pre-January 20 conduct, then, yes, by rights Cannon should shut everything down until the Supreme Court rules. We will see what she does on Friday. Under the blocking theory, she will set a trial date for, say, August, preventing the DC case from getting set for trial before the election, assuming the Supreme Court rules against Trump. Then in August, she will postpone the case until after the election. At that point, it will be impossible, or at least difficult, for the DC case to be tried before the election.

Chutkan could force the Trump defense to work in parallel with SCOTUS making their decision. Announce trial starts x days after SCOTUS gives decision assuming they find no immunity. x is calculated on the time she has already given the defense, they have already had, taken. If Cannon tries a blocking tactic, drop the Florida case and refile later in NYS just the charges/crimes that occurred in NYS. Smith is being given 3 weeks after Trump lawyers have 3 weeks to present written arguments. Smith can ask for less than his 3 weeks and ask the court to start arguments then a few weeks earlier.

I have to believe "logic" on the part of Chutkan counts for something, especially when making the argument that speed is important to the "people". Giving these criminals another 88(?) days to prepare their case is bull*hit.

Larry Tribe makes the case the court worded the question so that they could delay forever on Trump's behalf. They are not answering the simple question.

[njbill]

Chutkan has no jurisdiction right now to do anything: issue orders, set schedules, etc. The supreme court’s order today directed the court of appeals to withhold issuing their mandate. Effectively, that is pretty much the same thing as a stay.

I don’t think Smith can dismiss the Florida case at this juncture without court approval. I don’t think he can re-file in New York as I don’t think any part of the crimes occurred there. Arguably he could re-file in DC, which many have suggested he should have done at the outset. I suspect he was concerned that the case would get transferred to Florida if he did that. The bottom line is he simply crapped out on the wheel and got Cannon.

I think the Supreme Court briefing deadlines are date specific. Even if Smith files his brief early, Trump will still have the date set by the court to file his reply brief. More importantly, the argument will still be the week of April 22 regardless of when Smith files his brief.

I certainly agree Chutkan could expedite the trial date. While I think it is likely the decision will not come down until the last days of the term at the end of June, I don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion. I think it is possible the decision could come anytime after June 1.

But let’s say the decision does come down on, say, June 30. Here is where Cannon’s blocking maneuver comes in. What if she has set the Florida trial to begin on August 25? Chutkan could not then set the DC case until the Florida case is over. (Yes, she could direct the parties to work like busy beavers in the meantime so that they would be fully ready to go to trial once the Florida case is over.). To be more specific, she could set a trial date in early July for some date months later, after the Florida case is anticipated to be over, but that very likely would be after or at least very close to the election. No way the DC case would start, say, October 15.

[jhu72]

... I believe there are documents that were not stored in Florida but in NYS, that are not part of the Florida case. Smith never filed on these.

[njbill]

There has been speculation about that, and also that there are documents in New Jersey, but for whatever reason, Smith hasn’t filed charges with respect to those alleged documents.

[jhu72]

There has been speculation about that, and also that there are documents in New Jersey, but for whatever reason, Smith hasn’t filed charges with respect to those alleged documents.

Just keeping his powder dry for obvious reasons.

[jhu72]

So at what point does Chutkan get her trail back and when she sets a new date, after having given the defense forever once, how much time does she have to give them when she sets a new date.

[njbill]

Technically, the Supreme Court has to send the case back to the court of appeals, which presumably they will do after they render their decision. Unless there is some kind of wacky resolution of the case by the Supremes, the case will very quickly go back to the trial court. I would imagine the first thing she would do would be to hold a scheduling conference with the parties. While the case is stayed currently, there is no reason that counsel for the parties can’t continue to do some of the work necessary to get the case ready for trial. Other aspects of trial preparation are on hold, however, importantly including the exchange of discovery. The parties could be preparing their own documents to send to the other side in discovery in the meantime, however. There will be motions practice. The hobgoblin of further appeals also lurks. Within reason, she could force a pretty strict schedule on the parties.

Without knowing more about the case, I really don’t know how much time she would need to give the parties to prepare for trial. My guess is at least 60 days.

[jhu72]

Technically, the Supreme Court has to send the case back to the court of appeals, which presumably they will do after they render their decision. Unless there is some kind of wacky resolution of the case by the Supremes, the case will very quickly go back to the trial court. I would imagine the first thing she would do would be to hold a scheduling conference with the parties. While the case is stayed currently, there is no reason that counsel for the parties can’t continue to do some of the work necessary to get the case ready for trial. Other aspects of trial preparation are on hold, however, importantly including the exchange of discovery. The parties could be preparing their own documents to send to the other side in discovery in the meantime, however. There will be motions practice. The hobgoblin of further appeals also lurks. Within reason, she could force a pretty strict schedule on the parties.

Without knowing more about the case, I really don’t know how much time she would need to give the parties to prepare for trial. My guess is at least 60 days.

But whatever time Chutkan gives them, they can appeal that?

[dislaxxic]

Adding a superseding indictment for insurrection/sedition at this point would not gain, and probably further extend, the chance for a more speedy trial, yes? What about indicting the co-conspirators in the J6 case?

From another angle, if a trial starts in the fall, after the election...isn't it the case that if OD won the election (a BIG if), he would not have the power to eliminate the case entirely until noon on January 20, 2025? So, a trial could be going on through the fall...Smith is unlikely to give it up and withdraw charges, yes?

Yes, it's an unprecedented situation, calling for unprecedented measures.

At the end of the day, voters need to put an end to this on November 5, 2024.

..

[njbill]

Technically, the Supreme Court has to send the case back to the court of appeals, which presumably they will do after they render their decision. Unless there is some kind of wacky resolution of the case by the Supremes, the case will very quickly go back to the trial court. I would imagine the first thing she would do would be to hold a scheduling conference with the parties. While the case is stayed currently, there is no reason that counsel for the parties can’t continue to do some of the work necessary to get the case ready for trial. Other aspects of trial preparation are on hold, however, importantly including the exchange of discovery. The parties could be preparing their own documents to send to the other side in discovery in the meantime, however. There will be motions practice. The hobgoblin of further appeals also lurks. Within reason, she could force a pretty strict schedule on the parties.

Without knowing more about the case, I really don’t know how much time she would need to give the parties to prepare for trial. My guess is at least 60 days.

But whatever time Chutkan gives them, they can appeal that?

In theory, yes. In a normal case, an appellate court is not going to intercede with respect to scheduling issues, including the setting of the trial day. But this is not a normal case, and it wouldn’t shock me if an appeals court did step in with respect to those issues if the trial were to be set for this fall. We are in uncharted waters.

[njbill]

Adding a superseding indictment for insurrection/sedition at this point would not gain, and probably further extend, the chance for a more speedy trial, yes? What about indicting the co-conspirators in the J6 case?

From another angle, if a trial starts in the fall, after the election...isn't it the case that if OD won the election (a BIG if), he would not have the power to eliminate the case entirely until noon on January 20, 2025? So, a trial could be going on through the fall...Smith is unlikely to give it up and withdraw charges, yes?

Yes, it's an unprecedented situation, calling for unprecedented measures.

At the end of the day, voters need to put an end to this on November 5, 2024.

..

A superseding indictment and adding defendants would certainly delay the trial. I suspect that is one reason why Smith hasn’t done those things to date.

Right, Trump would have no power until sworn in on January 20. He also wouldn’t be able to get the case dismissed right away. He would need to find a Justice Dept lawyer willing to seek the dismissal and he would need court approval. That would probably happen at some point, but not immediately. The case could well get put on hold in the interim, however. But what would happen if the case was in the middle of trial, or if the jury was in the middle of deliberations? Beats the hell out of me.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Adding a superseding indictment for insurrection/sedition at this point would not gain, and probably further extend, the chance for a more speedy trial, yes? What about indicting the co-conspirators in the J6 case?

From another angle, if a trial starts in the fall, after the election...isn't it the case that if OD won the election (a BIG if), he would not have the power to eliminate the case entirely until noon on January 20, 2025? So, a trial could be going on through the fall...Smith is unlikely to give it up and withdraw charges, yes?

Yes, it's an unprecedented situation, calling for unprecedented measures.

At the end of the day, voters need to put an end to this on November 5, 2024.

..

Agreed; this is the Court's basic message: "we don't want the [unelected] courts deciding, or to be a decisive influence over who is elected to the Presidency."

Roberts, Kavanaugh and ACB were all on the team that is responsible for Bush v. Gore. Thomas's wife was literally involved in the effort to install fake or "alternative" electors. Alito would, I believe in my heart, do anything to place in office someone who will crawl when scripture says crawl. And Gorsuch is on a long, long vendetta to make up for his mommy's troubles in the Reagan Administration.

The Senate GOP failed the country with the second impeachment. Congress is profoundly dysfunctional, with a GOP majority that cannot govern and careens us into near default every few months, passes no legislation and simply consists of idiots elbowing one another for Fox and Newsmax air time and clever provocative tweets. And the Court delays justice and the actual airing of evidence in a criminal trial featuring a presidential candidate of the lowest character we could find for a novel or a cheap movie.

But by all means, let's "both sides" the issues.

[dislaxxic]

Roberts, Kavanaugh and ACB were all on the team that is responsible for Bush v. Gore.

The absolutely ATROCIOUS truth about this from a timing standpoint...perfectly aware that they are granting OD de facto immunity in this specific case by running the clock on the start of the J6 trial, proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that this court is a political cartel in the mold of the Justice-Stealing Turkey Waddle McConnell.

This is what happens under republican "rule"...these sorts of things. Dysfunctional governance, malicious exercise of political power, and lie after lie after lie. It's deplorable.

MAGAts cackle, democracy crumbles.

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[youthathletics]

Looks like MSNBC has already crumbled, and is spreading the word: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1763045 ... 04498?s=20

[dislaxxic]

TRUMP’S OTHER IMMUNITY CLAIM: STEALING BOXES AND BOXES OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS

Whatever else the SCOTUS grant of Trump’s immunity claim did, it provided the basis for scheduling clarity.

It seems likely SCOTUS has committed to deciding the immunity question by the end of term, in June.

That would present Tanya Chutkan with the decision of whether to try the January 6 case during the election season (it is her choice, not DOJ’s to make). She had been entertaining starting the trial in August, which would have bled into election season as it is, so she may decide to do this. If she does, it is unlikely a jury would reach a verdict before election day, but the trial would give voters opportunity to see the evidence before voting.

The decision to grant cert is as interesting for Trump’s other immunity claim — Trump’s even more frivolous claim that he can’t be prosecuted for stealing boxes and boxes of classified documents because his claimed decision to convert those government documents to his personal possession in violation of the Presidential Records Act is immune from prosecution, as well. I’ve seen some commentary that SCOTUS may have been trying to come up with a different solution but then decided to hear the case. If that’s true, the decision to hear the case came less than a week after Trump made that other claim of immunity, that he can steal classified documents with impunity. Who knows? It’s not before the court, but it may have affected their decision to hear the case.

The matter will be fully briefed by the time Jack Smith submits his brief to SCOTUS on April 8. So he can have two absurd claims of immunity to address, Trump’s claim he can steal the election with impunity, and Trump’s claim he can convert boxes and boxes of classified documents to do with as he pleases on the way out the door even if it violates the Presidential Records Act, a law passed specifically to apply to Presidents. One of the matters that had been hypothetical before the DC Circuit — that Trump might sell nuclear documents to our adversaries — has become concrete.

Given the question as posed by SCOTUS — Whether and if so to what extent does a former President enjoy presidential immunity from criminal prosecution for conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office? — I think SCOTUS may have been uncomfortable with the DC Circuit’s thin treatment of Trump’s argument that, without immunity, former Presidents could be prosecuted for things like approving the drone strike on Anwar al-Awlaki (note, when Trump raises this, he never mentions that he himself killed Awlaki’s daughter).

..

[Seacoaster(1)]

Looks like MSNBC has already crumbled, and is spreading the word: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1763045 ... 04498?s=20

Well, if Collin Rugg says so, then that’s it!!!

[youthathletics]

Looks like MSNBC has already crumbled, and is spreading the word: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1763045 ... 04498?s=20

Well, if Collin Rugg says so, then that’s it!!!

Nah....that's the sheppard speaking to her sheep, Maddow.

[MDlaxfan76]

Looks like MSNBC has already crumbled, and is spreading the word: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1763045 ... 04498?s=20

Well, if Collin Rugg says so, then that’s it!!!

Nah....that's the sheppard speaking to her sheep, Maddow.

Maddow is correct.
As President with absolute immunity, he can and very likely will remain in office until his death.

You need to pay attention to what these a-holes actually say, youth.

They're promising to fire or jail or otherwise punish any who stand in their way, any political opponent, media opponent, judge, lawyer, general, whoever... anyone for that matter who refuses to swear fealty or is suspected of not being truly loyal, and they're claiming in court and in public that if the President orders assassinations of his opponents, that's a Presidential order and must be carried out, and he's immune from prosecution. Full on, that's what they say. They're full-on serious.

They're promising mass concentration camps and round ups of undocumented immigrants. They'd previously promised Muslim bans and though that was stymied when they didn't have absolute control, that's a promise they'll likely return to. Expect it of anyone they consider 'undesirable'...that's certain to include LGBTQ.

Moreover, we're seeing at the state level what happens when full MAGA control of government is able to be exercised and it's very ugly, Gilead-like stuff. If the federal level brakes are no longer able to be applied at all, expect the full on worst to be emboldened.

Salty will get his civil war.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Looks like MSNBC has already crumbled, and is spreading the word: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1763045 ... 04498?s=20

Well, if Collin Rugg says so, then that’s it!!!

Nah....that's the sheppard speaking to her sheep, Maddow.

I don't watch news on the television at all, and don't watch MSNBC, except for clips I see elsewhere. So I don't know and don't much care about what "Collin Rugg" says about this. But Maddow is smart; she's no Greg Kelly.

Do you want DJT to be the President again? Are you OK with a third or more of the country in thrall to this shameless, venal grifter? This guy is a model of exactly what precious scripture warns against. But here you are: gleefully (it sure seems) echoing the tweety-thoughts of his ardent followers. Remember when principles were something that wasn't elastic?

If Trump is reelected, and if the Court provides him some degree of immunity for "official acts" -- the necessary characterization, then, to make them immune from the courts or litigation -- do you really think we will have a normal republic in four years time?

[njbill]

Looks like MSNBC has already crumbled, and is spreading the word: https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1763045 ... 04498?s=20

Well, if Collin Rugg says so, then that’s it!!!

Nah....that's the sheppard speaking to her sheep, Maddow.

Maddow is correct.
As President with absolute immunity, he can and very likely will remain in office until his death.

You need to pay attention to what these a-holes actually say, youth.

They're promising to fire or jail or otherwise punish any who stand in their way, any political opponent, media opponent, judge, lawyer, general, whoever... anyone for that matter who refuses to swear fealty or is suspected of not being truly loyal, and they're claiming in court and in public that if the President orders assassinations of his opponents, that's a Presidential order and must be carried out, and he's immune from prosecution. Full on, that's what they say. They're full-on serious.

They're promising mass concentration camps and round ups of undocumented immigrants. They'd previously promised Muslim bans and though that was stymied when they didn't have absolute control, that's a promise they'll likely return to. Expect it of anyone they consider 'undesirable'...that's certain to include LGBTQ.

Moreover, we're seeing at the state level what happens when full MAGA control of government is able to be exercised and it's very ugly, Gilead-like stuff. If the federal level brakes are no longer able to be applied at all, expect the full on worst to be emboldened.

Salty will get his civil war.

This sort of stuff is already happening. Trump is having his Kool-Aid drinkers threaten judges, judges staff, prosecutors, election workers, etc. He will no doubt threaten jurors once they are impaneled in the Manhattan criminal trial and any other jurors down the road.