Page 272 of 308
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:27 pm
by jhu72
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:20 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
A number of schools are gonna tack hard and target a lot more international students. There are a ton of them that pay full price.
Yup, would agree. This of course will create the situation of increasing unmet need among the students that are accepted, which will have to come from some other pot.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:39 pm
by get it to x
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:51 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:58 am
So...who is likely to
actually benefit versus who assumes they will benefit?
I'm going to use generalized terms below, but obviously sentiments are not uniform, I'm just talking about the generalized demographics.
Certainly, for now Asians, who currently over 2.5X overrepresented in the most highly selective schools relative to share of US population, but hope to achieve an even greater share of admissions. That's who ostensibly sued.
But who backed those suits and are cheering, thinking they will gain a larger share going forward?
Whites...and particularly white men. Rich white men and their families financially backed the suit, lots of other white men were led to believe the current situation is unfair to them...so think they should cheer.
https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston- ... tion-case/
Men receive the largest boost in admissions benefit on average, so...when does the challenge to gender-based admissions happen? Surely the targets of gender balance are discriminatory?
Women would hold way more admissions acceptances if we decided to only consider high school test scores and SAT's...close to 60:40.
Whites, whether rich or poor, think they are being discriminated again because some Blacks and Hispanics are accepted with lower scores than some white men who are rejected. And yet, Blacks and Hispanics remain under-respected proportionally in these schools.
So, what are these schools, which believe in their brains, hearts, and guts that a diverse campus improves the educational experience of all of the students going to do?
Are they just going to accept double, triple the number of Asian students and eliminate most Black and Hispanic and Native, etc acceptances? Are they going to accept 60% women, 40% men?
Nope, I think what we'll see is alternative ways to accomplish the various cultural and demographic balances that the schools are looking to achieve.
I think we'll see higher emphasis on socio-economic status and an elimination in legacy advantage. And yes, there will be increasing percentages of women versus men.
Asians will likely grow a little, but where the give-up will come is with Whites, and particularly white men.
Teeth gnashing to come...
... would largely agree but would add, given that the conservative grifters on the court have found ways around laws to get what they want, the colleges and universities who believe in diversity are equally capable of maintaining the status quo or extending it by going around the law.
There will be raising up in the streets I would suspect.
The ruling leaves plenty of latitude for UNC and Harvard to meet their diversity goals, they just have to do it a little differently. If you really cared about "underserved" minorities, you would be more interested in narrowing the academic skills gap. The problem isn't lack of admissions, it's the lack of qualified minority applicants, especially in the case of "Hahvad". The main issues are cultural emphasis on schooling and access to a first class K-12 education.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:44 pm
by runrussellrun
NattyBohChamps04 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:20 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
A number of schools are gonna tack hard and target a lot more international students. There are a ton of them that pay full price.
good tack......and than the good University don't need our US Federal tax dollars...than. Just looked at Hopkins 990 *2020
they got a cool $6 billion from Govt. they can make it up in tuition from "internationals".
Hope they house any folks from Quatar, in the lgbtq dorm. See how that works out. Lots of people thrown off the roofs, we guess.
but....look, a white male. bad bad, white male.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
by jhu72
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:03 pm
by jhu72
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:39 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:51 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:58 am
So...who is likely to
actually benefit versus who assumes they will benefit?
I'm going to use generalized terms below, but obviously sentiments are not uniform, I'm just talking about the generalized demographics.
Certainly, for now Asians, who currently over 2.5X overrepresented in the most highly selective schools relative to share of US population, but hope to achieve an even greater share of admissions. That's who ostensibly sued.
But who backed those suits and are cheering, thinking they will gain a larger share going forward?
Whites...and particularly white men. Rich white men and their families financially backed the suit, lots of other white men were led to believe the current situation is unfair to them...so think they should cheer.
https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston- ... tion-case/
Men receive the largest boost in admissions benefit on average, so...when does the challenge to gender-based admissions happen? Surely the targets of gender balance are discriminatory?
Women would hold way more admissions acceptances if we decided to only consider high school test scores and SAT's...close to 60:40.
Whites, whether rich or poor, think they are being discriminated again because some Blacks and Hispanics are accepted with lower scores than some white men who are rejected. And yet, Blacks and Hispanics remain under-respected proportionally in these schools.
So, what are these schools, which believe in their brains, hearts, and guts that a diverse campus improves the educational experience of all of the students going to do?
Are they just going to accept double, triple the number of Asian students and eliminate most Black and Hispanic and Native, etc acceptances? Are they going to accept 60% women, 40% men?
Nope, I think what we'll see is alternative ways to accomplish the various cultural and demographic balances that the schools are looking to achieve.
I think we'll see higher emphasis on socio-economic status and an elimination in legacy advantage. And yes, there will be increasing percentages of women versus men.
Asians will likely grow a little, but where the give-up will come is with Whites, and particularly white men.
Teeth gnashing to come...
... would largely agree but would add, given that the conservative grifters on the court have found ways around laws to get what they want, the colleges and universities who believe in diversity are equally capable of maintaining the status quo or extending it by going around the law.
There will be raising up in the streets I would suspect.
The ruling leaves plenty of latitude for UNC and Harvard to meet their diversity goals, they just have to do it a little differently. If you really cared about "underserved" minorities, you would be more interested in narrowing the academic skills gap. The problem isn't lack of admissions, it's the lack of qualified minority applicants, especially in the case of "Hahvad". The main issues are cultural emphasis on schooling and access to a first class K-12 education.
... I would say the rules appear to leave some latitude .... to meet diversity goals. The plenty is yet to be seen.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
by youthathletics
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:24 pm
by Kismet
Dispensing with legacy admissions would be a good start.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:38 pm
by jhu72
Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:24 pm
Dispensing with legacy admissions would be a good start.
It is going to be interesting to see which institutions don't do that in the near future (within next ~year)
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
by get it to x
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:45 pm
by ggait
You guys are mostly missing the point.
At most selective schools, the legacy admits are quite well qualified. Because they are upper SES, they typically have strong test scores.
They are just not super duper stars. But with a smidge of a break/tip they can get in. And the KEY is that their parents usually can full pay. Which means those kids ENROLL at very high rates. Legacy admissions isn't about getting mom and dad to donate a new library. It is about getting mom and dad to stroke the tuition checks.
The game really is not about who can get admitted. The game is about who can ENROLL. And enrollment requires (i) admission and (ii) ability to pay. (i) without (ii) doesn't mean anything to the school or the kid. The game is about YIELD (i.e. enrollment), not about admission.
Most schools (except MIT) have partially/completely moved beyond test scores. Once you do that, you have tons of leeway on who you admit.
But the KEY is how you spend the FA dollars to enable kids to ENROLL. Previously, a top school (relying heavily on test scores) could admit a lot of hi stat kids who a very likely full payors (including legacies). Which conserved a lot of FA dollars for the lower stat and higher need minority kids.
20% of Harvard kids attend for free -- many of them minority. But importantly, a very high 45% of Harvard kids full pay.
Now, the high need pool will have more white, Asian and female kids of modest means. How the schools decide to handle the increased need of their admit pools will determine what the outcome is going to be.
Given that, the impact at Berkeley and UNC (not so many FA dollars) should be expected to be quite different from the impact at the $$$ privates like HYPS.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
by jhu72
as good a place as any to place this.
Papiere bitte.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
by youthathletics
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
That's my point. At some point we have to move past it. Certainly is hard to achieve when there is no transformational leadership...and it seems the SCOTUS also understands this.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:59 pm
by get it to x
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
That's my point. At some point we have to move past it. Certainly is hard to achieve when there is no transformational leadership...and it seems the SCOTUS also understands this.
Too much money in diversity. It is much bigger than some cottage industry. A lot of these corporations who puff their chests out about diversity are, however, laying off their HR/DEI people first.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:11 pm
by jhu72
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
... who/what I trust is not relevant in this case, I am not a minority -- (well except for the fact that I am incredibly good looking)
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:15 pm
by jhu72
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:59 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
That's my point. At some point we have to move past it. Certainly is hard to achieve when there is no transformational leadership...and it seems the SCOTUS also understands this.
Too much money in diversity. It is much bigger than some cottage industry. A lot of these corporations who puff their chests out about diversity are, however, laying off their HR/DEI people first.
... you guys will have to explain to me how these educational institutions are making money off of diversity. I would say it is at best a break even proposition, at worse a money loser. You keep telling us "go woke, go broke."
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:25 pm
by a fan
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
That's my point. At some point we have to move past it. Certainly is hard to achieve when there is no transformational leadership...and it seems the SCOTUS also understands this.
Yeah, but we already do the "division" game, fellas. Go to an average inner city or uber rural K-12 and look at the facilities and average teacher pay.....then go to the rich burbs and walk around on campuses that look like DIII colleges, with teachers pulling down six figure salaries. Then tell me we don't have division right out of the gate.
You gents willing to pay up and fix this "division"? My read from the National Republican party and 100% of their leaders has been a big, fat, "no".
I know some local Republicans who think this is catastrophic.......leaving all that talent on the sidelines, and refusing to invest in America's future. But I can't name a single National Republican who has any sort of plan to fix this gap. They're not even talking about it. Taxes are bad. Government is bad.
You guys sound like you disagree with that crew. Am I right?
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:32 pm
by get it to x
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:25 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
That's my point. At some point we have to move past it. Certainly is hard to achieve when there is no transformational leadership...and it seems the SCOTUS also understands this.
Yeah, but we already do the "division" game, fellas. Go to an average inner city or uber rural K-12 and look at the facilities and average teacher pay.....then go to the rich burbs and walk around on campuses that look like DIII colleges, with teachers pulling down six figure salaries. Then tell me we don't have division right out of the gate.
You gents willing to pay up and fix this "division"? My read from the National Republican party and 100% of their leaders has been a big, fat, "no".
I know some local Republicans who think this is catastrophic.......leaving all that talent on the sidelines, and refusing to invest in America's future. But I can't name a single National Republican who has any sort of plan to fix this gap. They're not even talking about it. Taxes are bad. Government is bad.
You guys sound like you disagree with that crew. Am I right?
Ready to pay, or at least divert some of our taxes away from corrupt institutions. We are a better country when everyone has a shot at success, whether it's as a chemical engineer or a master electrician. All of the best jobs require a skillset that requires a basic mastery of key subjects, mainly mathematics and reading, along with some critical thinking skill.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:34 pm
by MDlaxfan76
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:00 pm
Harvard let down academia and affirmative action with their blatantly racist and subjective admissions system that systematically discriminated against Asian students, which resembled the subjective system used to keep out students of Jewish heritage a century ago. Absolutely lazy and moronic.
Harvard made it too easy to strike down affirmative action and failed in its leadership role. Today’s horrible SCOTUS action can largely be blamed on Harvard’s grotesque failure to learn from its past mistakes.
DocBarrister
Huh?
Are you serious with this one?
Harvard's system is VERY like the rest of the Ivies. Lots of factors, race being a small one, but way less important than a whole lot of others that have the net effect of an outcome that has American Asians 2.5X better represented on campus than in the US population.
You are quite correct about the long ago cap on Jewish admissions.
But giving weight to factors like extracurriculars that demonstrate empathy or grit or special innovativeness over raw test scores should not be considered inherently biased against Asian kids...unless you are saying those kids don't try, can't try, as hard in those areas as they do on test scores...?
Note, Asian kids are much more overrepresented than are white...only blacks and hispanics are underrepresented...
Harvard specifically designed their system to be fully Constitutional under the prior 2003 precedent...I dunno what you wanted, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:39 pm
by tech37
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:32 pm
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:25 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:50 pm
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:39 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:23 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:48 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 3:17 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:49 pm
... After reading / listening to a lot of different folks, this will likely result in a loud cry on campuses for the abandonment of legacy admits. A number of the top schools, but not all have done this already. Those that have not are going to take a lot of grief. Likely athletic preference will take a hit as well. This is going to cause every group on campus to go after the sacred cows they object to most. This will result in questioning diversity well beyond the traditional race and ethnicity boxes. Why are we admitting international students, etc. This can do so much harm to the American educational system in the overreaction.
Counterpoint.... In short, a 'rising tide lifts all boats', and the current standard of admissions is a complete dump show. Admissions created this problem in the first place. The end goal should be that there are no stats based on race, ethnicity, creed, gender, etc. We needed those stats as we navigated our history these last 100 years, maybe....just maybe, we can move past all these silos and truly become symbiotic.
... I don't think we can or should move away from the statistics. The silos will still exist, it just makes it easier for the those interested in keeping minorities down to hide what they are doing. This move is not going to make minorities more trusting of the oligarchy. It is also not going to make the various minorities more trusting of each other either.
Is that because you do not trust whitey? At some point, or maybe I am just too naïve, we have to be in a position to scrub all this silo crapola and just begin to move on as one.
Diversity and division have the same root.
That's my point. At some point we have to move past it. Certainly is hard to achieve when there is no transformational leadership...and it seems the SCOTUS also understands this.
Yeah, but we already do the "division" game, fellas. Go to an average inner city or uber rural K-12 and look at the facilities and average teacher pay.....then go to the rich burbs and walk around on campuses that look like DIII colleges, with teachers pulling down six figure salaries. Then tell me we don't have division right out of the gate.
You gents willing to pay up and fix this "division"? My read from the National Republican party and 100% of their leaders has been a big, fat, "no".
I know some local Republicans who think this is catastrophic.......leaving all that talent on the sidelines, and refusing to invest in America's future. But I can't name a single National Republican who has any sort of plan to fix this gap. They're not even talking about it. Taxes are bad. Government is bad.
You guys sound like you disagree with that crew. Am I right?
Ready to pay, or at least divert some of our taxes away from corrupt institutions. We are a better country when everyone has a shot at success, whether it's as a chemical engineer or a master electrician. All of the best jobs require a skillset that requires a basic mastery of key subjects, mainly mathematics and reading, along with some critical thinking skill.
Right... and how much has gone to Ukraine over the past year?
Re: SCOTUS
Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:39 pm
by a fan
get it to x wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:32 pm
Ready to pay, or at least divert some of our taxes away from corrupt institutions. We are a better country when everyone has a shot at success, whether it's as a chemical engineer or a master electrician. All of the best jobs require a skillset that requires a basic mastery of key subjects, mainly mathematics and reading, along with some critical thinking skill.
Amen. Especially on the electrician part. We've starved Federal money from blue collar job training long enough.
Great place to get money? Balance the budget. We blew well over $400 billion last year on payments on interest. Wasted money because the wankers in charge don't believe in paying for what we get.