Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[Typical Lax Dad]

someone suggested a definition the other day. to antagonize/prejudice someone based on their membership in a group.

white is a group. someone somewhere thinks anti-white = racist.

is it not?

No. The other day I listed the origin of the term White person. It was was a mechanism used to deny liberties to black people. The term did exist as a legal descriptor prior to the late 1600s. You were asking what is “white” after all. So I provided the Bacon Rebellion as the antecedent. How is “Karen” anti-white? It’s an anti behavior....no?

[DMac]

It's about depth of feelings, sensitivities. The sensitivities of people who are having stereotypes being tossed around about them.

It's also about extremes, inaccurate interpretations, and fabricated stereotyping being tossed around.
Pedro's Tacos is not insensititve, black hair products placed in stores where they are is not insensitive, and when a black and white guy are bantering and throwing barbs at one another that you might deem as insesitive/hurtful, it's not. They all get that. Yet people here want to tell me it's deeper than that, and me and my ilk need to dig 600 years and beyond in order to understand that we're really insensitive. I even read an article by a really smart gal, credentials wise anyway, who told me racism, and my insensitivity to it, is inherent. I can't help myself, it's beyond me to figure out. I see you making claims of some/many being afflicted with the same inadequacies here too....not you though, you get it.

[Matnum PI]

someone suggested a definition the other day. to antagonize/prejudice someone based on their membership in a group.
white is a group. someone somewhere thinks anti-white = racist.
is it not?

I dunno, COB. I hear you and... it's theoretical stuff about a very real issue. racism is real. What we're dealing with is real. Whether some middle-aged white woman feels the ravages of racism is not real. Yes, we can pull out a dictionary and prove otherwise on paper and... It's not real. What blacks experience in America is real.

[Matnum PI]

Pedro's Tacos is not insensititve, black hair products placed in stores where they are is not insensitive, and when a black and white guy are bantering and throwing barbs at one another that you might deem as insesitive/hurtful, it's not. They all get that.

Agreed. Though I'm sure some are, I'm not bothered by Pedro's Tacos, black hair products, etc. And I already spoke to A and B talking to each other. I'm C and C is not relevant. If A and B want to have some fun and are having fun, enjoy. Your saying what a lack empathy isn't and... I agree. My question is what a lack of empathy is. What I'm speaking to is someone saying, Blacks are good singers and dancers! Someone repeating a stereotype which someone isn't devastated by but... It smarts. Do you agree that this demonstrates a lack of empathy?

....not you though, you get it.

and now you're shifting the discussion from the topic to... me. Please don't do that. I'm not bad mouthing you. I'm not even talking about you besides to understand your perspective. I'm not this "smart girl credentials wise" who bothered you.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

agreed it is a real issue. i just think no real progress is made because people use differing definitions.

i read your posts to say that racism is in the eye of the victim- if you feel it, and believe it's racism, it is. unless you're white. then it's not. why the disparate treatment, given the definition posted a few pages back?

[tech37]

Pedro's Tacos is not insensititve, black hair products placed in stores where they are is not insensitive, and when a black and white guy are bantering and throwing barbs at one another that you might deem as insesitive/hurtful, it's not. They all get that.

Agreed. Though I'm sure some are, I'm not bothered by Pedro's Tacos, black hair products, etc. And I already spoke to A and B talking to each other. I'm C and C is not relevant. If A and B want to have some fun and are having fun, enjoy. Your saying what a lack empathy isn't and... I agree. My question is what a lack of empathy is. What I'm speaking to is someone saying, Blacks are good singers and dancers! Someone repeating a stereotype which someone isn't devastated by but... It smarts. Do you agree that this demonstrates a lack of empathy?

....not you though, you get it.

and now you're shifting the discussion from the topic to... me. Please don't do that. I'm not bad mouthing you. I'm not even talking about you besides to understand your perspective. I'm not this "smart girl credentials wise" who bothered you.

You keep using "bothered by" to describe those who disagree with you when you seem to be the one who is bothered by everything. You think others are insensitive when it is you who is hyper-sensitive.

[Matnum PI]

agreed it is a real issue. i just think no real progress is made because people use differing definitions.

i read your posts to say that racism is in the eye of the victim- if you feel it, and believe it's racism, it is. unless you're white. then it's not. why the disparate treatment, given the definition posted a few pages back?

I do not believe that racism is in the eye of the victim. (Racism can be far too complicated.) I believe that hurt is in the eye of the victim. Setting aside racism for a second, I think a top priority is stopping hurting people. Whether I'm a racist, you're a racist, he, she, it... I don't know. But i know what hurt is.

[Matnum PI]

You keep using "bothered by" to describe those who disagree with you when you seem to be the one who is bothered by everything. You think others are insensitive when it is you who is hyper-sensitive.

I spoke of a woman writer who bothered DMac. That has nothing to do with me. Matter of fact, I was saying that she is not me.

And, yes, correct. I am sensitive (hyper-sensitive is too strong) about certain issues. And, yes, I am asking people who are less sensitive to be mindful of this.

[DMac]

My question is what a lack of empathy is. What I'm speaking to is someone saying, Blacks are good singers and dancers! Someone repeating a stereotype which someone isn't devastated by but... It smarts. Do you agree that this demonstrates a lack of empathy?

Yes. What this discussion too often devolves to though, is that Pedro's Tacos, and the like, is hurtful too. The discussion needs to be kept real, about issues that matter. Trader Joe's nipped it in the bud and dealt with the reality rather than a seventeen year old woke girl that the press wanted to jump on to help spread her wokeness. Believe me, I'm not the only one here who feels as if a couple of special ones here are ridiculously judgemental and way off the mark with some of their comments and interpretations of what people are saying and thinking.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

agreed it is a real issue. i just think no real progress is made because people use differing definitions.

i read your posts to say that racism is in the eye of the victim- if you feel it, and believe it's racism, it is. unless you're white. then it's not. why the disparate treatment, given the definition posted a few pages back?

I do not believe that racism is in the eye of the victim. (Racism can be far too complicated.) I believe that hurt is in the eye of the victim. Setting aside racism for a second, I think a top priority is stopping hurting people. Whether I'm a racist, you're a racist, he, she, it... I don't know. But i know what hurt is.

well then if racisms are disassociated from hurt, then neutral comments (or even laudatory) should be ok.

but i think we all know they are not.

if priority is to stop hurting people, then karen isnt ok. because it hurts people. or do whites not have feelings (i know youre not suggesting that!).

[Matnum PI]

well then if racisms are disassociated from hurt, then neutral comments (or even laudatory) should be ok.
but i think we all know they are not.
if priority is to stop hurting people, then karen isnt ok. because it hurts people. or do whites not have feelings (i know youre not suggesting that!).

Yes. Though, what some consider laudatory (e.g. Blacks are good dancers) isn't really laudatory. If a comment is truly laudatory, of course, yes, it's great.

Agreed. Karen is not OK. As I said, it's hurtful but I don't know if it is racist.

[Matnum PI]

My question is what a lack of empathy is. What I'm speaking to is someone saying, Blacks are good singers and dancers! Someone repeating a stereotype which someone isn't devastated by but... It smarts. Do you agree that this demonstrates a lack of empathy?

Yes...
Believe me, I'm not the only one here who feels as if a couple of special ones here are ridiculously judgemental and way off the mark with some of their comments and interpretations of what people are saying and thinking.

Thanks. I appreciate that.
As for the judgmental people, I hope you do not see me as one of them. And, if you do, that's OK, too. Being judgmental about racism and bigotry strikes me as a defense mechanism. i.e. In america, to be a racist is to be evil and... People don't want to be evil so they prove their lack of racism by pointing at those who are, for the sake of argument, more racist than they are. For whatever reason, "Oh man! John is so racist!" makes the speaker look less racist. When... It's nonsense. The speaker has proven nothing about himself. (Maybe it's proven something about John and... that's John's business.) And, as I'm speaking with the Chairman of the Board about, racism is too complicated for me. Bag racism. At this point, I'm just shooting for not hurting people. If nothing else, when I do something which I'm *sure* is not racist, I don't spend the day figuring out whether it was or not. I know i hurt someone, i apologize, i do what I need to do to not do it again, and... This works better for me.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

and i agree- and we won't have an answer as long as the definitions are different.

[Peter Brown]

Listening to American media will make you so dumb. The newest DNC narrative amplified dutifully by our media is the Portland Democratic birdbrains miraculously calmed down when the Feds 'left' (which they actually didn't do, but who;'s counting).

Uhhh, not so fast I guess. Still rioting , looting, and burning things down.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/12 ... 37697?s=20

Try not to reward these liars.

Massive chaos coming on August 8:

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/12 ... 49219?s=20

Democrats won't accept a Trump win because they don't respect democracy. Just sayin'.

[MDlaxfan76]

Listening to American media will make you so dumb. The newest DNC narrative amplified dutifully by our media is the Portland Democratic birdbrains miraculously calmed down when the Feds 'left' (which they actually didn't do, but who;'s counting).

Uhhh, not so fast I guess. Still rioting , looting, and burning things down.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/12 ... 37697?s=20

Try not to reward these liars.

Massive chaos coming on August 8:

https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/12 ... 49219?s=20

Democrats won't accept a Trump win because they don't respect democracy. Just sayin'.

I can't believe I'm even responding to this trolling stupidity.

Ohh the horror, a clip from sometime (who knows when or where) of some knucklehead (who knows who he is) with what a beer? saying something repeatedly after a little fire is set, clearly nothing more than what a TV set or some jumble of furniture? In a small area away from other stuff?? ohh the horror...

And the idiots of the Ngo twitter thread

Nah, let's not be concerned with Russian troll farms sowing disinformation...

[Typical Lax Dad]

My question is what a lack of empathy is. What I'm speaking to is someone saying, Blacks are good singers and dancers! Someone repeating a stereotype which someone isn't devastated by but... It smarts. Do you agree that this demonstrates a lack of empathy?

Yes. What this discussion too often devolves to though, is that Pedro's Tacos, and the like, is hurtful too. The discussion needs to be kept real, about issues that matter. Trader Joe's nipped it in the bud and dealt with the reality rather than a seventeen year old woke girl that the press wanted to jump on to help spread her wokeness. Believe me, I'm not the only one here who feels as if a couple of special ones here are ridiculously judgemental and way off the mark with some of their comments and interpretations of what people are saying and thinking.

Like I have said, if more people were like you, we wouldn’t have the problems we have.

[CU88]

How white supremacy infected Christianity and the Republican Party

Opinion by Jennifer Rubin
Columnist
August 3, 2020 at 9:30 a.m. EDT


Robert P. Jones, chief executive and founder of the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI), is fast becoming the leading expert in the values, votes and mind-set of White Christians. His work has explained how loss of primacy in American society fueled a white-grievance mentality — the same mind-set President Trump so effectively read and manipulated.

His latest book, “White Too Long: The Legacy of White Supremacy in American Christianity,” is a masterful study documenting how white supremacy came to dominate not just Southern culture, but White Christianity. In it, he argues that “most white Christian churches have protected white supremacy by dressing it in theological garb, giving it a home in a respected institution, and calibrating it to local cultural sensibilities.” He also recounts ways in which White churches are moving to account for their past and explore their history with Black Americans.

Jones posits that it is not simply intermingling a celebration of the “Lost Cause” and religion that has led White Christians who do not think of themselves of racists to harbor views that reinforce racism; he also points to the theological worldview of White Christians, including “an individualist view of sin [which ignores institutional racism], an emphasis on a personal relationship with Jesus, and the Bible as the protector of the status quo.” If you want to know why White Christian ideology is the best predictor of racist attitudes (a shocking revelation for the author and likely many readers), the book is essential reading.

Below is my conversation with Robert P. Jones, edited for style and length.

Q: Did Trump inspire this undertaking?

A: In some important ways, “White Too Long” represents my accounting of a journey I’ve been on at least since my seminary days in my early 20s. I was raised as a Southern Baptist in Mississippi and attended a Southern Baptist college and seminary. At the same time, I attended newly integrated public schools in Jackson, where I attended classes and played sports with African American classmates. But our social lives, our neighborhoods and churches were largely still segregated. It wasn’t until I was in seminary that I became aware of the genesis of my denomination, which I capture in the first sentence of the book: “The Christian denomination in which I grew up was founded on the proposition that chattel slavery could flourish alongside the gospel of Jesus Christ.” That appalling contradiction, and its legacy all around me growing up, has haunted me my whole adult life.


In the more recent context, the eruption of the Black Lives Matter movement in 2013, coupled with the racist and anti-immigrant rhetoric that became the central campaign strategy of Donald Trump in 2016, were certainly catalysts for writing the book. Trump’s response to the neo-Nazi demonstrations in 2017 was also a turning point for me. Trump waited 48 hours to issue any statement, and when he did, he equivocated, stating there were “very fine people on both sides.” And I was stunned that Trump’s inability to flatly condemn neo-Nazis — who were chanting “Blood and soil!” and “Jews will not replace us” and who murdered a person protesting that hatred — had no discernible impact on his White Christian support. PRRI’s fall American Values Survey, conducted just a few weeks after these remarks, for example, found his favorability among White evangelical Protestants remained remarkably high, at 72 percent. So I began working on the book in earnest in 2018 with the goal of getting a deeper understanding of these confounding and unsettling patterns.

Notably, these dynamics are still with us. In more recent days, Trump’s use of police and federal agents to disrupt peaceful protests connected to the Black Lives Matter movement and his doubling down on support for the Confederate flag and monuments has also done little to dislodge White evangelical support, which remains at 63 percent favorable.

Q: How did Trump use white supremacy to co-opt White evangelicals in the Republican Party?

A: It’s important to note that the Republican Party has a decades-long history of deploying, in various degrees, what has been dubbed “the Southern Strategy,” a racist dog-whistle politics that fuels white grievances and exploits racial divisions to win elections. In 2005, Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman formally apologized to the NAACP for these tactics. But that was 2005.

I think it is clear that Trump’s own racist instincts are driving his strategy, and this is becoming abundantly clear to the American public. Remarkably, last fall a PRRI survey found nearly 6 in 10 Americans said that his words and behavior were encouraging white supremacists. But it’s also true that Trump is dusting off an old Republican playbook that many in a former incarnation of the Republican Party were hoping to leave behind. He’s certainly had help crafting this appeal. His 2016 campaign manager, Paul Manafort, for example, was also the Southern political coordinator for Ronald Reagan’s 1980 campaign, which symbolically was launched with a speech lauding “states' rights,” the mantra of segregationists, at Mississippi’s Neshoba County Fair, a site just a few miles from where Freedom Riders James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Mickey Schwerner were killed in 1964.

Q: Are “values” now just a cover story for evangelicals to rationalize support for Trump?

A: I think the phrases “family values” and “values voters” were one of the most successful, durable — and disingenuous — political branding operations in my lifetime. This identity foregrounded opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage along with an insistence that a candidate’s character was central to their qualifications for office. But it never really held together in the way that the rhetoric implied. When the Roe v. Wade decision legalizing abortion came down, for example, the Southern Baptist Convention supported it, largely considering it a “Catholic issue.” Opposition to same-sex marriage, despite being broadly declared a hill to die on just a decade ago, has largely been dropped as a political wedge issue, as two-thirds of Americans — along with a majority of younger Republicans — have come to support marriage equality. And in more than a decade of doing public opinion research, I’ve never seen a public opinion survey where White conservative Christians ranked abortion or same-sex marriage among their top three voting issues.

Most tellingly, Trump’s ascendancy has snuffed out the White Christian character and virtue industry, at least as these ideals apply to our political leaders. One jaw-dropping statistic: In 2011, only 3 in 10 White evangelicals said that it was possible for a political leader to commit immoral acts in his or her private life and still be able to fulfill their duties in their public life; by 2016, with Trump at the top of the ticket, 72 percent of White evangelicals had decided this was no longer a problem.

The one enduring, animating issue that fueled white flight from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party has been civil rights for African Americans. This was the issue that originally pulled Jerry Falwell Sr. out from behind the pulpit and into organizing the Christian right political movement. This white-supremacist undercurrent, tied to White Christian identity, is the key to understanding our current political polarization and the transformation of our two political parties over the last few decades. Today, approximately 7 in 10 self-identified Republicans are white and Christian, compared to only 3 in 10 self-identified Democrats. These divisions along racial and religious lines began with the passage of the civil rights acts in the mid-1960s, picked up steam with Reagan and have continued to increase even over the last decade.

Q: Do you think we are at a moment when White Christians’ mind-set can change?

A: There are signs that we are at a unique moment of opportunity. This time last year, I was conducting research for the book in Richmond. I walked the length of Monument Avenue in the shadow of five massive monuments to leaders of the Confederacy, which had stood in their places for more than a century. The bronze statues at the center of four of these monuments have now been removed, and the fifth statue to Robert E. Lee is slated for removal. As the statue to Stonewall Jackson came down, people gathered across the traffic circle at the First Baptist Church — a church that had been intentionally relocated from downtown in the late 1920s to be nearer to the monuments. Members of the congregation rang the bronze church bell in celebration, the same bell that their ancestors had offered to the Confederate army to be melted down to make canons. In my home state of Mississippi, the Mississippi Baptist Convention — the state arm of the Southern Baptist Convention — called on the governor and the legislature to remove the Confederate battle flag from the state’s banner, the last remaining state flag that incorporated that symbol of the Confederacy.

When I wrapped the book manuscript last fall, I would not have imagined these memorials to white supremacy would have fallen in just a few weeks’ time. But the question before us is whether we’ll take the next steps to see and topple the White Christian worldview that legitimized these symbols in the first place.

Q: Is the white-supremacist mind-set a Trump problem or a GOP problem?

A: The roots of the GOP problem go back at least to the toleration and execution of the Southern Strategy to win elections. When such a tactic is deployed for half a century, no one should be surprised when white-supremacist sentiments turn out to be an animating core of group identity. I hope there can be a more honest reckoning, both for the Republican Party and for its White Christian base that has provided theological and moral cover for this strategy.

Trump’s recent racist comments that he is going to protect those living “the Suburban Lifestyle Dream” from the threat of “low-income housing” in their neighborhoods, or his refusal to condemn the display of the Confederate flag at public events and venues, are simply unremarkable in the light of this history. Trump is most accurately understood as the inevitable end of a road paved brick by brick through 13 presidential election cycles since 1968. By the time the RNC attempted to apologize for the Southern Strategy in 2005 or advocated for a more pragmatic and humane immigration policy in its “autopsy report” after [Mitt] Romney’s 2012 defeat, this runaway freight train simply had too much momentum behind it to be easily derailed.

But I do think the clarity of the current moment is calling the moral question in this election like no other in my lifetime. There is an opportunity here, for both the GOP and for White Christians who are a part of its foundation, to rebuild a party of principle that rejects white supremacy and strategies that stoke white racial fears and grievances.

[Brooklyn]

PB


Brooklyn asked which Democrats don't want blacks to succeed: how about most?

Still waiting ....

... and waiting ..............

[Peter Brown]

PB

Brooklyn asked which Democrats don't want blacks to succeed: how about most?

Still waiting ....

... and waiting ..............

I answered already., "MOST".

You are not for school choice, correct? If that's the case, you don't want young black students to succeed, you want teacher unions to have cash to blow on Vegas hookers and Dominican jaunts and donate to Democrats.

[Brooklyn]

most

Great answer. Very telling. In fact, so specific as to be incontrovertible. Some day soon, people will say it goes beyond Gospel Truth.