Progressive Ideology

[cradleandshoot]

Nor do we resemble what you describe.

Yes they do. I spent my entire life growing up with the values of what the Democrat party once stood for. I don't know what the party has evolved into nor do I care. If the party was the same party that I was raised with... I would be a member of the party. My opinion of both parties I have made quite clear here many times. Democrats and Republicans can both go strait to hell. Is that clear enough for you? I hope there is no ambiguity there for any body to have to figure out. bang1

[Trinity]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal.

[cradleandshoot]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

[MDlaxfan76]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

[cradleandshoot]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

Sorry MD, not to insult you but IMO you are clueless about what the Democrats use to stand for. They were suppose to speak for the middle class and stand by their side. Since neither party does that anymore, despite the sheepdip coming from their mouths as I say one more time with all the emotion and passion that I can... Both parties... Democrat and Republican can both go strait to hell. Both parties have sold their collective souls to the extremist wings that now pull the strings. I get that, I understand that, but I don't have to like it or accept it. The cold hard reality is America is now in control of extremists on both sides that don't love the country as much as they want to rule it as they see fit. Since I am a loyal, faithful taxpaying member of the middle class I have paid attention and listened to the rotgut from both sides. The only thing we ever get is the freaking bill for all your hopes and dreams. You remember that bill? That is the one that the one percent folks are always going to pay. bang1

[MDlaxfan76]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

Sorry MD, not to insult you but IMO you are clueless about what the Democrats use to stand for. They were suppose to speak for the middle class and stand by their side. Since neither party does that anymore, despite the sheepdip coming from their mouths as I say one more time with all the emotion and passion that I can... Both parties... Democrat and Republican can both go strait to hell. Both parties have sold their collective souls to the extremist wings that now pull the strings. I get that, I understand that, but I don't have to like it or accept it. The cold hard reality is America is now in control of extremists on both sides that don't love the country as much as they want to rule it as they see fit. Since I am a loyal, faithful taxpaying member of the middle class I have paid attention and listened to the rotgut from both sides. The only thing we ever get is the freaking bill for all your hopes and dreams. You remember that bill? That is the one that the one percent folks are always going to pay. bang1

How old are you cradle? I'm 61, been around for awhile and have been paying attention along the way.
I'm also a student of history and economics and government.

I do agree with you that we're in the grip of extremism, I just think you are largely coming from such a disenchanted, right wing point of view that you don't think anyone has integrity any more.

Interestingly, I was with the wife of a friend who is a pretty darn far left person (she and I haven't agreed on much of anything political or economic for the 30+ years I've known her). Personally, I find her a bit of a whack job, though extremely bright and well informed. But she is so disenchanted post-2016 that she thinks the system is entirely rigged for the GOP (electoral system) and that the GOP is so dishonest and engaged in voter suppression that she thinks its hopeless to even care any more.

I think you guys are both wrong to hold such absolutist views, but between the three of us, I'm outvoted 2:1.
I hope I'm right!

I do think that gerrymandering has led to a bias to the extreme, on both sides. I think it needs to be addressed.

[runrussellrun]

If she supported Hillaryious, she IS indeed a whackjob.

[cradleandshoot]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

Sorry MD, not to insult you but IMO you are clueless about what the Democrats use to stand for. They were suppose to speak for the middle class and stand by their side. Since neither party does that anymore, despite the sheepdip coming from their mouths as I say one more time with all the emotion and passion that I can... Both parties... Democrat and Republican can both go strait to hell. Both parties have sold their collective souls to the extremist wings that now pull the strings. I get that, I understand that, but I don't have to like it or accept it. The cold hard reality is America is now in control of extremists on both sides that don't love the country as much as they want to rule it as they see fit. Since I am a loyal, faithful taxpaying member of the middle class I have paid attention and listened to the rotgut from both sides. The only thing we ever get is the freaking bill for all your hopes and dreams. You remember that bill? That is the one that the one percent folks are always going to pay. bang1

How old are you cradle? I'm 61, been around for awhile and have been paying attention along the way.
I'm also a student of history and economics and government.

I do agree with you that we're in the grip of extremism, I just think you are largely coming from such a disenchanted, right wing point of view that you don't think anyone has integrity any more.

Interestingly, I was with the wife of a friend who is a pretty darn far left person (she and I haven't agreed on much of anything political or economic for the 30+ years I've known her). Personally, I find her a bit of a whack job, though extremely bright and well informed. But she is so disenchanted post-2016 that she thinks the system is entirely rigged for the GOP (electoral system) and that the GOP is so dishonest and engaged in voter suppression that she thinks its hopeless to even care any more.

I think you guys are both wrong to hold such absolutist views, but between the three of us, I'm outvoted 2:1.
I hope I'm right!

I do think that gerrymandering has led to a bias to the extreme, on both sides. I think it needs to be addressed.

I am 60 years old. You are not outvoted. I don't see myself ever supporting or voting at the national level for any Republican or Democrat again ever. I was naive enough to believe that maybe Trump could keep his mouth shut long enough to accomplish something. I didn't vote for Trump. The only satisfaction I found in his victory was that HRC lost. I expect and hope that Trump moves on in 2020. I have no idea what candidates will step forward for both parties. I do know that the same game of ripping these people shreds will commence immediately. I am only crossing my fingers as to who the best third option will be.

[foreverlax]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

Sorry MD, not to insult you but IMO you are clueless about what the Democrats use to stand for. They were suppose to speak for the middle class and stand by their side. Since neither party does that anymore, despite the sheepdip coming from their mouths as I say one more time with all the emotion and passion that I can... Both parties... Democrat and Republican can both go strait to hell. Both parties have sold their collective souls to the extremist wings that now pull the strings. I get that, I understand that, but I don't have to like it or accept it. The cold hard reality is America is now in control of extremists on both sides that don't love the country as much as they want to rule it as they see fit. Since I am a loyal, faithful taxpaying member of the middle class I have paid attention and listened to the rotgut from both sides. The only thing we ever get is the freaking bill for all your hopes and dreams. You remember that bill? That is the one that the one percent folks are always going to pay. bang1

How old are you cradle? I'm 61, been around for awhile and have been paying attention along the way.
I'm also a student of history and economics and government.

I do agree with you that we're in the grip of extremism, I just think you are largely coming from such a disenchanted, right wing point of view that you don't think anyone has integrity any more.

Interestingly, I was with the wife of a friend who is a pretty darn far left person (she and I haven't agreed on much of anything political or economic for the 30+ years I've known her). Personally, I find her a bit of a whack job, though extremely bright and well informed. But she is so disenchanted post-2016 that she thinks the system is entirely rigged for the GOP (electoral system) and that the GOP is so dishonest and engaged in voter suppression that she thinks its hopeless to even care any more.

I think you guys are both wrong to hold such absolutist views, but between the three of us, I'm outvoted 2:1.
I hope I'm right!

I do think that gerrymandering has led to a bias to the extreme, on both sides. I think it needs to be addressed.

MD, your sample size is too small. There are way more folks with you then the ostrich crowd.

Opinion is never wrong, its just an opinion. Those who read, listen, and think have the ability to change their opinions...based on facts and thought.

Others just prefer to breath sand....too bad for them.

[HooDat]

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round

of course not, because by now the Dems have figured out that the way for them to win the White House is to put forward nominees that have no baggage because they haven't done ANYTHING - and typically with a bias for what they deem to be a pretty face. Their last three winners fit the first (Carter - Governor of a very small rural state; Clinton - same; Obama - one-term Senator), and their last two fit both.

The Dems can't win National Elections on policy, they tend to win on sparkle.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round

of course not, because by now the Dems have figured out that the way for them to win the White House is to put forward nominees that have no baggage because they haven't done ANYTHING - and typically with a bias for what they deem to be a pretty face. Their last three winners fit the first (Carter - Governor of a very small rural state; Clinton - same; Obama - one-term Senator), and their last two fit both.

The Dems can't win National Elections on policy, they tend to win on sparkle.

So, Clinton and Obama just won (twice each) on 'sparkle'.

We have no idea who the Dems will put up this time.

[MDlaxfan76]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

Sorry MD, not to insult you but IMO you are clueless about what the Democrats use to stand for. They were suppose to speak for the middle class and stand by their side. Since neither party does that anymore, despite the sheepdip coming from their mouths as I say one more time with all the emotion and passion that I can... Both parties... Democrat and Republican can both go strait to hell. Both parties have sold their collective souls to the extremist wings that now pull the strings. I get that, I understand that, but I don't have to like it or accept it. The cold hard reality is America is now in control of extremists on both sides that don't love the country as much as they want to rule it as they see fit. Since I am a loyal, faithful taxpaying member of the middle class I have paid attention and listened to the rotgut from both sides. The only thing we ever get is the freaking bill for all your hopes and dreams. You remember that bill? That is the one that the one percent folks are always going to pay. bang1

How old are you cradle? I'm 61, been around for awhile and have been paying attention along the way.
I'm also a student of history and economics and government.

I do agree with you that we're in the grip of extremism, I just think you are largely coming from such a disenchanted, right wing point of view that you don't think anyone has integrity any more.

Interestingly, I was with the wife of a friend who is a pretty darn far left person (she and I haven't agreed on much of anything political or economic for the 30+ years I've known her). Personally, I find her a bit of a whack job, though extremely bright and well informed. But she is so disenchanted post-2016 that she thinks the system is entirely rigged for the GOP (electoral system) and that the GOP is so dishonest and engaged in voter suppression that she thinks its hopeless to even care any more.

I think you guys are both wrong to hold such absolutist views, but between the three of us, I'm outvoted 2:1.
I hope I'm right!

I do think that gerrymandering has led to a bias to the extreme, on both sides. I think it needs to be addressed.

I am 60 years old. You are not outvoted. I don't see myself ever supporting or voting at the national level for any Republican or Democrat again ever. I was naive enough to believe that maybe Trump could keep his mouth shut long enough to accomplish something. I didn't vote for Trump. The only satisfaction I found in his victory was that HRC lost. I expect and hope that Trump moves on in 2020. I have no idea what candidates will step forward for both parties. I do know that the same game of ripping these people shreds will commence immediately. I am only crossing my fingers as to who the best third option will be.

By "outvoted", I just meant that both you and she are so disenchanted that they have lost all faith in our system, totally disillusioned. For quite different reasons and from quite different perspectives.

foreverlax, I'm of course hoping you are correct about the sample size.

[HooDat]

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round

of course not, because by now the Dems have figured out that the way for them to win the White House is to put forward nominees that have no baggage because they haven't done ANYTHING - and typically with a bias for what they deem to be a pretty face. Their last three winners fit the first (Carter - Governor of a very small rural state; Clinton - same; Obama - one-term Senator), and their last two fit both.

The Dems can't win National Elections on policy, they tend to win on sparkle.

So, Clinton and Obama just won (twice each) on 'sparkle'.

We have no idea who the Dems will put up this time.

My whole point is that "pretty" is what works for the Dems.

And right now, the party is seriously flirting hard with sparkle: Sparkle NYC and Sparkle Texas. Both have the depth of a teaspoon, but both sparkle....

[a fan]

You'll have to have seen the movie Donnie Darko, HooDat, but on the off chance that you have.....

[dislaxxic]

The Dems can't win National Elections on policy, they tend to win on sparkle.

HooBOY! Dems can't win on policy...cause Trump just SPARKLED them with his dazzling POLICY. Right, voters care so much about policy they elected a nincompoop that wanted Mexico to pay for a wall and whose major "policy" prescription was the supremely nuanced "Make America Great Again".

That's a major croc if i ever heard one...

..

[cradleandshoot]

That’s like me saying Republicans lie, cheat and steal. Oh, wait....

Except that Democrats lie, cheat and steal... Oh wait. I repeat for your sake. Both parties can go strait to hell. If you love the new incarnation of the Democrat party... more power to you. If you want to pass them off as my parents Democrat party... that is another story. This is where we have to part ways. I know and understand what Democrats use to stand for. I also know that todays Democrats don't understand what Democrats use to stand for. That is really no big deal. Times change, people change, peoples values change... it is what it is. I get it 100%. I am just one of the people that does not give a flying fig anymore. My perspective should not be that hard to understand... even for a modern day Democrat.

I think it's quite fair to say that it's not 'your parents' Democratic Party.
The Democrats today are not the sale 'ole segregationist party of the South that they were in 1950 and 1960, nor the party of non-college educated white men. Those folks gradually switched to the GOP with the Nixon and then Reagan 'Southern Strategy'. Then Newt's "contract", the reaction to Obama's skin color, and so on leading us to our now, full blown demographic divide based on a mix of race, educational level, gender, and geography and given full voice by Trump et al.

Nope, not the same party at all. Heavily coastal and urban/suburban, very diverse ethnically, popular with more highly educated population, much more popular with women though less so with married, less educated rural women, unpopular with less educated white men. And much more popular with younger populations, which themselves are more diverse and more exposed to diversity than were their parents.

But the Dems are far from monolithic as they do have some midwestern folks who look and sound an awful lot like the northern and upper midwestern Dems of 1950-60. You have to be somewhat willfully ignorant to think otherwise (but that's indeed what the right wing media wants you to think).

The question, seems to me, for 2020 is whether they want to win nationally, including the electoral college which is slanted rural, or they just want to win where the population centers are. Will they put forward a candidate who is 'thrilling' to the coastal folks who would vote Dem no matter what or will they nominate someone who pulls the middle of the persuadable electorate?

I'm pretty sure they will Not nominate someone with huge ethical baggage this go round, so it's possible that they win even if they tack hard left. But that's a big gamble.

Sorry MD, not to insult you but IMO you are clueless about what the Democrats use to stand for. They were suppose to speak for the middle class and stand by their side. Since neither party does that anymore, despite the sheepdip coming from their mouths as I say one more time with all the emotion and passion that I can... Both parties... Democrat and Republican can both go strait to hell. Both parties have sold their collective souls to the extremist wings that now pull the strings. I get that, I understand that, but I don't have to like it or accept it. The cold hard reality is America is now in control of extremists on both sides that don't love the country as much as they want to rule it as they see fit. Since I am a loyal, faithful taxpaying member of the middle class I have paid attention and listened to the rotgut from both sides. The only thing we ever get is the freaking bill for all your hopes and dreams. You remember that bill? That is the one that the one percent folks are always going to pay. bang1

How old are you cradle? I'm 61, been around for awhile and have been paying attention along the way.
I'm also a student of history and economics and government.

I do agree with you that we're in the grip of extremism, I just think you are largely coming from such a disenchanted, right wing point of view that you don't think anyone has integrity any more.

Interestingly, I was with the wife of a friend who is a pretty darn far left person (she and I haven't agreed on much of anything political or economic for the 30+ years I've known her). Personally, I find her a bit of a whack job, though extremely bright and well informed. But she is so disenchanted post-2016 that she thinks the system is entirely rigged for the GOP (electoral system) and that the GOP is so dishonest and engaged in voter suppression that she thinks its hopeless to even care any more.

I think you guys are both wrong to hold such absolutist views, but between the three of us, I'm outvoted 2:1.
I hope I'm right!

I do think that gerrymandering has led to a bias to the extreme, on both sides. I think it needs to be addressed.

I am 60 years old. You are not outvoted. I don't see myself ever supporting or voting at the national level for any Republican or Democrat again ever. I was naive enough to believe that maybe Trump could keep his mouth shut long enough to accomplish something. I didn't vote for Trump. The only satisfaction I found in his victory was that HRC lost. I expect and hope that Trump moves on in 2020. I have no idea what candidates will step forward for both parties. I do know that the same game of ripping these people shreds will commence immediately. I am only crossing my fingers as to who the best third option will be.

By "outvoted", I just meant that both you and she are so disenchanted that they have lost all faith in our system, totally disillusioned. For quite different reasons and from quite different perspectives.

foreverlax, I'm of course hoping you are correct about the sample size.

Disenchanted can't even begin to describe how I feel about politics in general and the pathetic disfunction of republicans and democrats in general. I read an article today from the morning paper when I got home... Jerry Nadler has such a hard on for Trump he wants him indicted and thrown in jail AFTER he leaves office. Who the eff cares about Trump once he leaves office. Trump goes back to his office in trump tower where the same Democrat parasites that today want to roast his chestnuts over a hot fire will be donning blue dresses and heading up to Trump tower to beg for Trumps money. Do not doubt me here. Democrats may hate Trump... but they will always love his money. At least the NYS variety of Democrat parasite. Some things never change...

[Trinity]

Trump’s the victim.

[HooDat]

The Dems can't win National Elections on policy, they tend to win on sparkle.

HooBOY! Dems can't win on policy...cause Trump just SPARKLED them with his dazzling POLICY. Right, voters care so much about policy they elected a nincompoop that wanted Mexico to pay for a wall and whose major "policy" prescription was the supremely nuanced "Make America Great Again".

That's a major croc if i ever heard one...

..

your statement being true, doesn't make my point any less true - I know, it's complicated.....

[thatsmell]

The Dems can't win National Elections on policy, they tend to win on sparkle.

HooBOY! Dems can't win on policy...cause Trump just SPARKLED them with his dazzling POLICY. Right, voters care so much about policy they elected a nincompoop that wanted Mexico to pay for a wall and whose major "policy" prescription was the supremely nuanced "Make America Great Again".

That's a major croc if i ever heard one...

..

Sparkle? Maybe. The Dems have had success when you can't pin their candidate down to any real track record.

But I think '16 was a typical swing back after a 2 termer.

Plus Trump received a lot of free advertising with the left's major media mouthpieces laughing and playing Trump soundbites around the clock for the entire year leading up to the election.

This is what happens when the Dems also aided by: a) putting up a bad candidate of their own, B) talked down to the opposition and C) executed a lazy campaign.

[foreverlax]

From the NYT -

A Good Call by Albany’s Pay Committee
Limiting lawmakers’ outside income while substantially raising their pay is a worthy compromise.

When it comes to Albany, every labored step out of the ethical muck is something to celebrate.

For this reason, it was a relief on Thursday that a committee set up to determine lawmakers’ pay enacted reforms limiting outside income and eliminating most committee stipends, known as “lulus,” alongside a salary increase.

The pay committee, born out of a wily measure tucked into the state budget by Gov. Andrew Cuomo and lawmakers earlier this year, was designed to grant the legislators a hefty raise with no questions asked.

Instead, the committee, made up of four well-regarded current and former public servants — the New York City comptroller, Scott Stringer; the former city comptroller, William Thompson Jr.; the state comptroller, Thomas DiNapoli; and the former state comptroller, H. Carl McCall — acted responsibly.

There is hope.....