Miscellaneous questions, thoughts, impressions, etc.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I didn't realize Navy is a relatively new women's lacrosse program. Started in 2008, the Midshippers have had only one head coach in Cindy Timchal. Yet despite gaudy won loss records for her entire tenure, the legendary coach has little to show for her efforts as far as NCAA postseason results. No blame being laid here--I imagine it ain't easy to recruit for the Naval Academy.



Last year Navy finished 8-4 and was bounced in the first round of the PL playoffs by Lehigh. They did not qualify for the NCAA's.

The Collins sisters era (2015-2018) has been the golden age so far. During their time Navy was 64-20 and made the Final Four in 2017 and may well have advanced to their 2nd consecutive FF appearance vs BC in '18 had the team not blown a 3 goal lead with under 15 minutes left in the 2nd half at Maryland in the Elite Eight. Of course it didn't help that the refs passed out 6 consecutive yellow cards and 7 of the last 8 to Timchal's charges. Multiple yellows cost Navy Kyla Harris and Jenna Collins for the rest of the game. The last of the 6 consecutive and 2nd to Jenna Collins with 4 minutes left in the game on a notorious acting job from the then resident Flopsy Rabbit for the Terps. But that loss is ancient history at this point.

Players like the identical twin Collins sisters come around once in a generation. It's remarkable how much players like them can elevate a program and leave it deflated once they graduate.

[Dr. Tact]

I didn't realize Navy is a relatively new women's lacrosse program. Started in 2008, the Midshippers have had only one head coach in Cindy Timchal. Yet despite gaudy won loss records for her entire tenure, the legendary coach has little to show for her efforts as far as NCAA postseason results. No blame being laid here--I imagine it ain't easy to recruit for the Naval Academy.



Last year Navy finished 8-4 and was bounced in the first round of the PL playoffs by Lehigh. They did not qualify for the NCAA's.

The Collins sisters era (2015-2018) has been the golden age so far. During their time Navy was 64-20 and made the Final Four in 2017 and may well have advanced to their 2nd consecutive FF appearance vs BC in '18 had the team not blown a 3 goal lead with under 15 minutes left in the 2nd half at Maryland in the Elite Eight. Of course it didn't help that the refs passed out 6 consecutive yellow cards and 7 of the last 8 to Timchal's charges. Multiple yellows cost Navy Kyla Harris and Jenna Collins for the rest of the game. The last of the 6 consecutive and 2nd to Jenna Collins with 4 minutes left in the game on a notorious acting job from the then resident Flopsy Rabbit for the Terps. But that loss is ancient history at this point.

Players like the identical twin Collins sisters come around once in a generation. It's remarkable how much players like them can elevate a program and leave it deflated once they graduate.

The Collins sisters were very good players, but Navy didn't shine until Kelly Larkin joined the team (2017). She was the one who was not only a threat to score, but the feeder to Jenna and Julia. While not questioning any of the above, as we have seen in other teams, it often takes that third player to make the dominant offensive team. (i.e. Jenna went from 35 points/20 games before Kelly, 68 points/19 games during Kelly's freshman season. Kelly, btw, had 108 points/23 games that year)

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Players like the identical twin Collins sisters come around once in a generation. It's remarkable how much players like them can elevate a program and leave it deflated once they graduate.

The Collins sisters were very good players, but Navy didn't shine until Kelly Larkin joined the team (2017). She was the one who was not only a threat to score, but the feeder to Jenna and Julia. While not questioning any of the above, as we have seen in other teams, it often takes that third player to make the dominant offensive team. (i.e. Jenna went from 35 points/20 games before Kelly, 68 points/19 games during Kelly's freshman season. Kelly, btw, had 108 points/23 games that year)

That's one way to look at it. It would take an inordinate amount of time to check Larkins's assists in '17 and '18 and who they were dished to but I thought I would take a sample of the last 4 games of the Collins era which included the PL championship and the 3 NCAA tourney games. Of the 24 goals Julia scored during that stretch, Larkin assisted on 1. Of the 10 goals Jenna scored, Larkin assisted on 1. I seem to remember the Collins sisters style as gimme-the-ball-and-let-me-go-one-on-one more than the recipient of assists kind of players.

Then there was the undeniable drop off after Jenna and Julia set sail. Larkin played her Jr and truncated Sr years after their departure yet the team didn't reach nearly the same heights. Where Navy conquered Loyola back to back years for the PL championship in '17 and '18 (by scores of 15-5 and 17-10 respectively) and went to the Final Four (lost to BC 15-16) and Elite Eight (lost to Maryland 15-17) with the Collins sisters, the next year without them they got dragged by Loyola 21-9 in the PL championship (Larkin 2g 0a 2to 0-2 fps) and made it only as far as the NCAA 2nd round losing to Virginia 12-15. Kelly Larkin was a remarkable player. Her stellar stats bear that out. But I think it's conclusive that the Collins sisters were the power pistons that put the Midshippers in the national spotlight during their time.

I also believe that some players don't really blossom until their Jr years. BC's Dempsey Arsenault is a case in point. And I'm sure there are plenty of others:



edit: corrected loss to BC score from 16-17 to 15-16

[Dr. Tact]

Players like the identical twin Collins sisters come around once in a generation. It's remarkable how much players like them can elevate a program and leave it deflated once they graduate.

The Collins sisters were very good players, but Navy didn't shine until Kelly Larkin joined the team (2017). She was the one who was not only a threat to score, but the feeder to Jenna and Julia. While not questioning any of the above, as we have seen in other teams, it often takes that third player to make the dominant offensive team. (i.e. Jenna went from 35 points/20 games before Kelly, 68 points/19 games during Kelly's freshman season. Kelly, btw, had 108 points/23 games that year)

That's one way to look at it. It would take an inordinate amount of time to check Larkins's assists in '17 and '18 and who they were dished to but I thought I would take a sample of the last 4 games of the Collins era which included the PL championship and the 3 NCAA tourney games. Of the 24 goals Julia scored during that stretch, Larkin assisted on 1. Of the 10 goals Jenna scored, Larkin assisted on 1. I seem to remember the Collins sisters style as gimme-the-ball-and-let-me-go-one-on-one more than the recipient of assists kind of players.

Then there was the undeniable drop off after Jenna and Julia set sail. Larkin played her Jr and truncated Sr years after their departure yet the team didn't reach nearly the same heights. Where Navy conquered Loyola back to back years for the PL championship in '17 and '18 (by scores of 15-5 and 17-10 respectively) and went to the Final Four (lost to BC 16-17) and Elite Eight (lost to Maryland 15-17) with the Collins sisters, the next year without them they got dragged by Loyola 21-9 in the PL championship (Larkin 2g 0a 2to 0-2 fps) and made it only as far as the NCAA 2nd round losing to Virginia 12-15. Kelly Larkin was a remarkable player. Her stellar stats bear that out. But I think it's conclusive that the Collins sisters were the power pistons that put the Midshippers in the national spotlight during their time.

I also believe that some players don't really blossom until their Jr years. BC's Dempsey Arsenault is a case in point. And I'm sure there are plenty of others:

Well, I can tell you what happened in the games that Loyola played those three. IIRC, Kelly was faceguarded in most of them and always drew the top defender when not in a FG. That allowed the Collins' twins to drive because there was more room. I wont argue with you as this looks like it would go that way, but the eye test told me that when the three were on the field, the better player was Kelly, then Jenna, then Julia. Yes they were good, but as a good friend told me, they weren't great until Navy. I will stand by the statement that you cant take the two and declare them the high contributors and reason for Navy's success in 2017-2018 without Kelly Larkin.

Your point on the drop off is also something pretty obvious. Navy road those horses for full games for 2 years. They rarely ever came out. When the twins left, there were no other players to step into that triangle (either lack of talent or experience or both). The team was one dimensional. All you had to do was stop Kelly and Navy was beatable. When Kelly left, it got even worse.

So, I'll agree that the Collins twins were a huge part of Navy's success, but I believe, not the only reason.

[wlaxphan20]

Then there was the undeniable drop off after Jenna and Julia set sail. Larkin played her Jr and truncated Sr years after their departure yet the team didn't reach nearly the same heights.

The exact same statement could be made about the team before Larkin joined in 2017 when it was just the Collins twins. Lost to Loyola in the PL championship in 15 & 16. Navy was always a well respected program, but wasn't seen on the national stage until they made the final four in 2017, Larkin's first year. I just think this means that having 3 players of that caliber is more helpful than 1 or 2. 2 offensive threats, especially 2 offensive threats that are mostly 1v1 threats like you say (I don't think they were btw, Jenna had 42a & Julia had 27a), are much easier for a defense to manage than 3 threats who can assist as well as score. They don't need to be pitted against each other.

And while they were certainly catalysts, that Navy team was much more than those 3. They had 6 players with 45+ points and 5 with 50+ goals.

I also believe that some players don't really blossom until their Jr years. BC's Dempsey Arsenault is a case in point. And I'm sure there are plenty of others:

I thought Arsenault's jump in offensive statistics is because she moved from the defensive end & a defensive role to midfield in 2018. Her defensive statistics remain consistent from her sophomore year on except DC's because they moved her to the circle in 2018. I believe Arsenault experienced a rise in recognition & notoriety in 2018. I don't think the numbers she put up when she moved to midfield were a surprise to anyone in the BC program, though. The ability was always there & hear teammates had probably seen her do it in practice plenty of times, but now she had the opportunity as a middie and started putting up more offensive stats. I think that's when media & fans started paying more attention - because offensive stats turn heads much more than defensive ones.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I thought Arsenault's jump in offensive statistics is because she moved from the defensive end & a defensive role to midfield in 2018. Her defensive statistics remain consistent from her sophomore year on except DC's because they moved her to the circle in 2018. I believe Arsenault experienced a rise in recognition & notoriety in 2018. I don't think the numbers she put up when she moved to midfield were a surprise to anyone in the BC program, though. The ability was always there & hear teammates had probably seen her do it in practice plenty of times, but now she had the opportunity as a middie and started putting up more offensive stats. I think that's when media & fans started paying more attention - because offensive stats turn heads much more than defensive ones.

Great observation, wlaxphan. I didn't pick a good example. I had no idea Arsenault started her career at BC in a hybrid mid/def role. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Dr. Tact]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

Im not gonna get into a nitpick battle...Just remember, a player makes one dodge or multiple steps and there is no assist. Not all goals are assisted.

I said "feeder" not assister.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

Just remember, a player makes one dodge or multiple steps and there is no assist. Not all goals are assisted.

I said "feeder" not assister.

If that's the case, then it's irrelevant who fed them the ball.

[seacoaster]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

Just remember, a player makes one dodge or multiple steps and there is no assist. Not all goals are assisted.

I said "feeder" not assister.

If that's the case, then it's irrelevant who fed them the ball.

Good players create space for other players. Larkin as an individual threat and a threat to feed occupied the attention of the other team's best defender, and likely the kid adjacent whose job it was to slide and help. Her presence on the field made the game 7 vs. 5.5, so to speak, and created enormous room for the Collinses and the Harris kid. In a sport with flow, you can make a difference without the stats that are so important to the radio jockeys.

[Dr. Tact]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

Just remember, a player makes one dodge or multiple steps and there is no assist. Not all goals are assisted.

I said "feeder" not assister.

If that's the case, then it's irrelevant who fed them the ball.

You are just trying to get a rise out of me. Not going to happen.

I know the game a bit. I know what I saw, I know how opposing players felt and schemed regarding the named players. .. I don't feel like fighting just to get the last word(s). You win, you are right.

[DMac]

Her presence on the field made the game 7 vs. 5.5, so to speak, and created enormous room for the Collinses and the Harris kid. In a sport with flow, you can make a difference without the stats that are so important to the radio jockeys.

This is where the "hockey assist" comes into play too which shows up nowhere in stats.
Mentioned this in the great CN debate as she too gets the D out of whack when she has
the ball....dishes, one more pass, shot. All created by that 7 v 5.5, so to speak.

[Dr. Tact]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

Just remember, a player makes one dodge or multiple steps and there is no assist. Not all goals are assisted.

I said "feeder" not assister.

If that's the case, then it's irrelevant who fed them the ball.

Good players create space for other players. Larkin as an individual threat and a threat to feed occupied the attention of the other team's best defender, and likely the kid adjacent whose job it was to slide and help. Her presence on the field made the game 7 vs. 5.5, so to speak, and created enormous room for the Collinses and the Harris kid. In a sport with flow, you can make a difference without the stats that are so important to the radio jockeys.

^^^this^^^

And don't forget the defender's heads on swivels watching ball GLE...

[Dr. Tact]

Her presence on the field made the game 7 vs. 5.5, so to speak, and created enormous room for the Collinses and the Harris kid. In a sport with flow, you can make a difference without the stats that are so important to the radio jockeys.

This is where the "hockey assist" comes into play too which shows up nowhere in stats.
Mentioned this in the great CN debate as she too gets the D out of whack when she has
the ball....dishes, one more pass, shot. All created by that 7 v 5.5, so to speak.

Having an AA crease/GLE attacker makes an average team good., a good team great. Offenses that run schemes from X and that have that dual threat attacker are extremely hard to stop. Especially if they have soft handed top and elbow dodgers.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I just think this means that having 3 players of that caliber is more helpful than 1 or 2. 2 offensive threats, especially 2 offensive threats that are mostly 1v1 threats like you say (I don't think they were btw, Jenna had 42a & Julia had 27a), are much easier for a defense to manage than 3 threats who can assist as well as score. They don't need to be pitted against each other.

And while they were certainly catalysts, that Navy team was much more than those 3. They had 6 players with 45+ points and 5 with 50+ goals.

True, true. Good points, wlaxphan.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Lots of time on my hands this Sunday sitting around tracking Henri in the background on TV, so I decided to comb through the 2017 stats for the Collins sisters. Of the 72 goals Jenna scored, 16 were assisted by Kelly Larkin. Of the 48 goals Julia scored, 3 were assisted by Larkin. I may or may not get inspired to comb through 2018.

Just remember, a player makes one dodge or multiple steps and there is no assist. Not all goals are assisted.

I said "feeder" not assister.

If that's the case, then it's irrelevant who fed them the ball.

You are just trying to get a rise out of me. Not going to happen.

I know the game a bit. I know what I saw, I know how opposing players felt and schemed regarding the named players. .. I don't feel like fighting just to get the last word(s). You win, you are right.

Too bad you feel like that. That's precisely what I was trying not to do. A guy can't win for losing around here. If I bail on the discussion you say I can't take the heat. If I stay and debate--now I'm trying to get your goat. A guy like wlaxphan stays in there with me and he doesn't effect a condescending tone and I learn from him because he's patient to explain things. You guys ought to try it, then maybe our discussions would improve.

[8meterPA]

Her presence on the field made the game 7 vs. 5.5, so to speak, and created enormous room for the Collinses and the Harris kid. In a sport with flow, you can make a difference without the stats that are so important to the radio jockeys.

This is where the "hockey assist" comes into play too which shows up nowhere in stats.
Mentioned this in the great CN debate as she too gets the D out of whack when she has
the ball....dishes, one more pass, shot. All created by that 7 v 5.5, so to speak.

Having an AA crease/GLE attacker makes an average team good., a good team great. Offenses that run schemes from X and that have that dual threat attacker are extremely hard to stop. Especially if they have soft handed top and elbow dodgers.

ie, "creasebeast" see Rosenzweig sisters, Ohlmiller as well.

[Dr. Tact]

Too bad you feel like that. That's precisely what I was trying not to do. A guy can't win for losing around here. If I bail on the discussion you say I can't take the heat. If I stay and debate--now I'm trying to get your goat. A guy like wlaxphan stays in there with me and he doesn't effect a condescending tone and I learn from him because he's patient to explain things. You guys ought to try it, then maybe our discussions would improve.

You weren't debating, you were shouting (w/o caps) that your opinion on the Collins twins didnt have room for a Larkin explanation. I have actually been one of the folks on this site who until now, havent beat you up publicly. You seem to still be chafed about my John Sung comments. I dont have time for your "expert analysis" that grabs the low hanging fruit (stats, pictures and videos) that makes you feel knowledgeable and in the in-crowd.

ONW, you have been told by many people that you are abrasive and talk (post) to hear yourself talk. I dont need your agreement with me, I dont need your approval of me, I dont need your comment on my daughter or her team "Choking" or being "Massacred", I dont need your snippy answers that you of course fact check to convince me of your argument. I DONT NEED YOU. Sorry that you dont have the self understanding/awareness of what you type. A suggestion, how about reading what you type a few times before you post and think if you are provoking or being controversial.

I am sorry that you feel you cant win for losing...I just dont know what to say that others havent already beat to death.

[Dr. Tact]

Her presence on the field made the game 7 vs. 5.5, so to speak, and created enormous room for the Collinses and the Harris kid. In a sport with flow, you can make a difference without the stats that are so important to the radio jockeys.

This is where the "hockey assist" comes into play too which shows up nowhere in stats.
Mentioned this in the great CN debate as she too gets the D out of whack when she has
the ball....dishes, one more pass, shot. All created by that 7 v 5.5, so to speak.

Having an AA crease/GLE attacker makes an average team good., a good team great. Offenses that run schemes from X and that have that dual threat attacker are extremely hard to stop. Especially if they have soft handed top and elbow dodgers.

ie, "creasebeast" see Rosenzweig sisters, Ohlmiller as well.

K. Hoeg comes to mind as well.

[wlaxphan20]

ie, "creasebeast" see Rosenzweig sisters, Ohlmiller as well.

Yes! Aly Messinger too. She was so fun to watch. Very smooth stick skills, deceptive, and a fatally quick first step. Kayla Treanor, Halle Majorana, Katrina Dowd, Katie Hoeg...the list goes on.