All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Brooklyn]

Apologies, I wasn't clear with what I meant by "we have no military options". What I meant was: US troops going in isn't an option.

Our current path----arming them-----is fine by me in this particular case. Normally I despise the "arm the right guys" approach to war that we have used for so many years.

Yes. Bog them down. Drain Putin's money. I agree. I was just saying, I don't agree with sending in US troops to "win" the war, and kick Putin out.

It sucks all around....no good answers.

Such a campaign would drain our money as well. The nation's debt continues to go up, homeless vets and others remain that way, pols suddenly decide that some social services cannot be financed as Biden's war is prioritized, the infrastructure agenda goes to hell, and life continues to get screwed. Meanwhile, the military industrial complex continues to profit and people who own stock in it go into rapturous joy.

Instead of America first, once again it is America last.

[a fan]

Such a campaign would drain our money as well. The nation's debt continues to go up, homeless vets and others remain that way, pols suddenly decide that some social services cannot be financed as Biden's war is prioritized, the infrastructure agenda goes to hell, and life continues to get screwed. Meanwhile, the military industrial complex continues to profit and people who own stock in it go into rapturous joy.

Instead of America first, once again it is America last.

That's gonna happen regardless of Ukraine. We haven't have adults in charge for 20 years, Brookie. Americans don't want to pay for what they get. Full Stop. Call me when that changes.

Example? How did our military spending just go way up after we left Afghanistan? Was our venture there free? F no. So then how come leaving didn't drop our expenses?

Because no matter what we do with our actual military, our Congress keeps giving them more money.

[old salt]

You don't think he can hold what he has ? Despite the rah rah in our media, everytime you see a map, the red stain in the S & SE is spreading. Russia now holds all the land S of the Dneiper river, including the 2 bridges connecting to the N shore of the Dneiper. They now hold the land bridge connecting Russia & Donbass to Crimea. To expel them, the Ukrainians would have to fight their way across that wide Dneiper river basin, without air or naval support. Our media is not giving us specific casualty figures, beyond grudgingly admitting that casualties are high, on both sides, in the fighting in the E.

OS, come on....this is what our media has done for every war we've EVER been involved it. You're acting like this is new. You're only insulting yourself with this stuff, as you "forgot" to point this fact out at any point in the last 15 years of being on the forum.

Waiting for your method to work, there won't be much worth left of Ukraine worth saving

Waiting for my method to work? This is the only method available. Make Russia a second class economic power going forward. That's pretty severe punishment if you're a Russian. Their economy was in shambles BEFORE the war. Now it's worse....and we need to really stick it to them when it's over.

We are playing a cynical game, arming our Ukrainian proxies to degrade Russia's military strength, with no realistic hope of victory.
The West needs to force both Zelensky & Putin to the negotiating table to force a cease fire.

Yes. I've said that from the word go, as you know. There's no other choice.

This open ended level of support is beyond what's necessary to ensure Ukraine's survival. We are admitting our goal of prolonging the war in order to degrade Russia's military capability rather than to force a cease fire & negotiated settlement.

This is not like anything in the past 15 years. This is not like anything since 1962. The adversary is not Iraq, Afghanistan or ISIS. We are fighting the 2nd strongest military in the world, on their home field. They are protected by the strongest integrated air defense system in the world. We can't get within range from the sea. We'd have to rely on launching from airbases of reluctant allies we can't count on because of their fear of counterattack. In past conflicts, we've been in the fight, alongside or in support of our proxies from over the horizion.

If we were dealing with a lesser power, like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or even Iran, I'd be gung ho. Let's go. This is a whole different kettle of fish.
I honestly do not believe the Ukrainians can force Russia to withdraw from the territory they now hold & what they may take in the near future.
Their forces are no longer extended that far or spread so thin. If I believed differently, I'd be as jingoistic as the keyboard warriors in this forum.
You've been telling us we don't need to worry about Russia & Putin because their GDP is smaller than Italy's. How'd that work out.

[Brooklyn]

That's gonna happen regardless of Ukraine. We haven't have adults in charge for 20 years, Brookie. Americans don't want to pay for what they get. Full Stop. Call me when that changes.

Example? How did our military spending just go way up after we left Afghanistan? Was our venture there free? F no. So then how come leaving didn't drop our expenses?

Because no matter what we do with our actual military, our Congress keeps giving them more money.

True. The corporate welfare queens continue to happily profit and all the while they keep pretending it's for our "freedom".

[old salt]

Example? How did our military spending just go way up after we left Afghanistan? Was our venture there free? F no. So then how come leaving didn't drop our expenses?

Because no matter what we do with our actual military, our Congress keeps giving them more money.

Because by that point, what we were spending in Afghanistan was peanuts compared to reinforcing NATO's E flank since 1914 (now you know why) & pivoting to Asia.

[a fan]

This open ended level of support is beyond what's necessary to ensure Ukraine's survival. We are admitting our goal of prolonging the war in order to degrade Russia's military capability rather than to force a cease fire & negotiated settlement.

You just get done telling us that the war was going poorly for Ukraine.....now you're telling us it's going better than that. I don't understand.

This is not like anything in the past 15 years. This is not like anything since 1962. The adversary is not Iraq, Afghanistan or ISIS.

Didn't say it was. What I said was: our leaders, generals, and media blew sunshine up our ***es for each war. Just like now.

I honestly do not believe the Ukrainians can force Russia to withdraw from the territory they now hold & what they may take in the near future.

You're thinking like a soldier. When this war is over.....and/or when Putin dies? That's when the rubber meets the road. Remember----Russia needs to occupy what they have turned into Rubble post war. Good luck with that.

You've been telling us we don't need to worry about Russia & Putin because their GDP is smaller than Italy's. How'd that work out.

Great! Fantastic! I was 1000% correct. So was Obama, for that matter. We live in America, no?

We don't need to worry about Russia and Putin. How many lacrosse games did you catch today? Putin isn't invading the US. He never will.

[MDlaxfan76]

Was watching games today, yes!

IMO, Putin's military needs to be pushed out of Ukraine entirely, however long that takes, but sooner the better certainly. That's what the Ukrainians want, as long as they are armed to do it. They want reparations for the destruction and accountability for the war crimes...that'll take longer, but there will be no true peace possible, at this point, until Putin is deposed and the Russian people are led by people who understand what really happened and want to make amends.

And indeed, that's possible, while simultaneously actually increasing the prosperity of the average Russian, given the end of the kleptocracy that's bled them for multiple decades.

Yes, they can get progressively pushed back, yet still doing great damage deep within Ukraine...no doubt. So, pushing them out of Ukraine fully may well also require weapons that can destroy their artillery and missile launches from within Russia as well, though an 'iron dome' is potentially an alternative. The latter would be preferable, but the Russian military may need to feel the pain wherever they are firing from, no safe haven.

It needn't require American or other NATO troops to do it, but it will require our weaponry and technology, intelligence, etc. But if Putin resorts to chem, bio, or nuclear, we take out their military hard and fast from the air. And they should know that'll happen through our military to military communications. That's definitely not what we want to have to do, but we need to be prepared to do it.

a fan is correct that choking the Russian economy is the second, critical element. That's a longer term commitment, which will be challenging to sustain if Putin decides to pull out and posture as if he's going to not rearm and attack again. But doable, given the ongoing threat as long as Putin's calling the shots. No one should ever believe or trust him ever again.

But letting Putin consolidate the Donbas and land bridge to Crimea, with the expressed aspirations to take Odessa all the way through to Moldova... And ultimately take all of Ukraine...is all a non-starter for the Ukrainians and we should support their resolve, else it'll green light any nuclear power in the world to simply saber rattle and then take what they want.

Yes, it's all ugly, and yes, it's all costly, so the sooner we arm them with the very best that the West has at its disposal, the better.

But we do need to be sure we're not out ahead of where are allies are on this...fortunately, others in Europe are seeing this threat even more clearly than perhaps we do. It's on their doorstep.

[old salt]

This open ended level of support is beyond what's necessary to ensure Ukraine's survival. We are admitting our goal of prolonging the war in order to degrade Russia's military capability rather than to force a cease fire & negotiated settlement.

You just get done telling us that the war was going poorly for Ukraine.....now you're telling us it's going better than that. I don't understand.
Ukraine has survived the initial onslaught. They defended Kyiv & prevented the toppling of the govt. Recall that Team Biden recommended that Zelensky & govt leave the country & go into exile 2 days after the invasion began. Now, heads of state are visiting Kyiv. Ukraine's survival is now assured. That is not why we are now doubling down.

This is not like anything in the past 15 years. This is not like anything since 1962. The adversary is not Iraq, Afghanistan or ISIS.

Didn't say it was. What I said was: our leaders, generals, and media blew sunshine up our ***es for each war. Just like now.

I honestly do not believe the Ukrainians can force Russia to withdraw from the territory they now hold & what they may take in the near future.

You're thinking like a soldier. When this war is over.....and/or when Putin dies? That's when the rubber meets the road. Remember----Russia needs to occupy what they have turned into Rubble post war. Good luck with that.
Yes, I'm thinking like a soldier, which is why I do not want to prolong this war any longer than is necessary to ensure Ukraine's survival.

You've been telling us we don't need to worry about Russia & Putin because their GDP is smaller than Italy's. How'd that work out.

Great! Fantastic! I was 1000% correct. So was Obama, for that matter. We live in America, no?
Obama said that Ukraine was of no vital interest to the US, did not merit lethal aid, & that Russia would never accept Ukraine joining NATO.


We don't need to worry about Russia and Putin. How many lacrosse games did you catch today? The games I was interested in were played last night. Putin isn't invading the US. He never will. That does not mean he will never attack us or our forces in his back yard.

[old salt]

Was watching games today, yes!

IMO, Putin's military needs to be pushed out of Ukraine entirely, however long that takes, but sooner the better certainly. That's what the Ukrainians want, as long as they are armed to do it. They want reparations for the destruction and accountability for the war crimes...that'll take longer, but there will be no true peace possible, at this point, until Putin is deposed and the Russian people are led by people who understand what really happened and want to make amends.

And indeed, that's possible, while simultaneously actually increasing the prosperity of the average Russian, given the end of the kleptocracy that's bled them for multiple decades.

Yes, they can get progressively pushed back, yet still doing great damage deep within Ukraine...no doubt. So, pushing them out of Ukraine fully may well also require weapons that can destroy their artillery and missile launches from within Russia as well, though an 'iron dome' is potentially an alternative. The latter would be preferable, but the Russian military may need to feel the pain wherever they are firing from, no safe haven.

It needn't require American or other NATO troops to do it, but it will require our weaponry and technology, intelligence, etc. But if Putin resorts to chem, bio, or nuclear, we take out their military hard and fast from the air. And they should know that'll happen through our military to military communications. That's definitely not what we want to have to do, but we need to be prepared to do it.

a fan is correct that choking the Russian economy is the second, critical element. That's a longer term commitment, which will be challenging to sustain if Putin decides to pull out and posture as if he's going to not rearm and attack again. But doable, given the ongoing threat as long as Putin's calling the shots. No one should ever believe or trust him ever again.

But letting Putin consolidate the Donbas and land bridge to Crimea, with the expressed aspirations to take Odessa all the way through to Moldova... And ultimately take all of Ukraine...is all a non-starter for the Ukrainians and we should support their resolve, else it'll green light any nuclear power in the world to simply saber rattle and then take what they want.

Yes, it's all ugly, and yes, it's all costly, so the sooner we arm them with the very best that the West has at its disposal, the better.

But we do need to be sure we're not out ahead of where are allies are on this...fortunately, others in Europe are seeing this threat even more clearly than perhaps we do. It's on their doorstep.

We're not holding any allies back. Just the opposite. So you don't want the fighting to stop so we can keep the sanctions on, regardless of the continued death & carnage in Ukraine & the damage to the global economy & food supply.

Are you confident that the Ukrainians can take back the land bridge, let alone Crimea ?
Have you looked at a map of the area & what Russia has gained ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
How do you propose they regain control of the Sea of Azov & the ports therein ?

You greatly overestimate US military capacity & our ability to bring it to bear in that location. You also overestimate the access we could expect to NATO ally bases, surface transit routes & airspace. ...if only it were as simple as you propose. ....& can you guarantee long term US public support or support from the WH beyond 2024 ?

[DocBarrister]

Was watching games today, yes!

IMO, Putin's military needs to be pushed out of Ukraine entirely, however long that takes, but sooner the better certainly. That's what the Ukrainians want, as long as they are armed to do it. They want reparations for the destruction and accountability for the war crimes...that'll take longer, but there will be no true peace possible, at this point, until Putin is deposed and the Russian people are led by people who understand what really happened and want to make amends.

And indeed, that's possible, while simultaneously actually increasing the prosperity of the average Russian, given the end of the kleptocracy that's bled them for multiple decades.

Yes, they can get progressively pushed back, yet still doing great damage deep within Ukraine...no doubt. So, pushing them out of Ukraine fully may well also require weapons that can destroy their artillery and missile launches from within Russia as well, though an 'iron dome' is potentially an alternative. The latter would be preferable, but the Russian military may need to feel the pain wherever they are firing from, no safe haven.

It needn't require American or other NATO troops to do it, but it will require our weaponry and technology, intelligence, etc. But if Putin resorts to chem, bio, or nuclear, we take out their military hard and fast from the air. And they should know that'll happen through our military to military communications. That's definitely not what we want to have to do, but we need to be prepared to do it.

a fan is correct that choking the Russian economy is the second, critical element. That's a longer term commitment, which will be challenging to sustain if Putin decides to pull out and posture as if he's going to not rearm and attack again. But doable, given the ongoing threat as long as Putin's calling the shots. No one should ever believe or trust him ever again.

But letting Putin consolidate the Donbas and land bridge to Crimea, with the expressed aspirations to take Odessa all the way through to Moldova... And ultimately take all of Ukraine...is all a non-starter for the Ukrainians and we should support their resolve, else it'll green light any nuclear power in the world to simply saber rattle and then take what they want.

Yes, it's all ugly, and yes, it's all costly, so the sooner we arm them with the very best that the West has at its disposal, the better.

But we do need to be sure we're not out ahead of where are allies are on this...fortunately, others in Europe are seeing this threat even more clearly than perhaps we do. It's on their doorstep.

We're not holding any allies back. Just the opposite. So you don't want the fighting to stop so we can keep the sanctions on, regardless of the continued death & carnage in Ukraine & the damage to the global economy & food supply.

Are you confident that the Ukrainians can take back the land bridge, let alone Crimea ?
Have you looked at a map of the area & what Russia has gained ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
How do you propose they regain control of the Sea of Azov & the ports therein ?

You greatly overestimate US military capacity & our ability to bring it to bear in that location. You also overestimate the access we could expect to NATO ally bases, surface transit routes & airspace. ...if only it were as simple as you propose. ....& can you guarantee long term US public support or support from the WH beyond 2024 ?

It is not Ukraine, the United States, NATO, the EU, or other U.S. allies that are the impediments to a cease fire or negotiated conclusion to the fighting.

It is Vladimir Putin who wants the fighting and slaughter to continue.

Unfortunately, Putin is not going to stop the guns, cannons, and missiles until he is absolutely forced to do so because of the destruction of his invasion force. That will likely take a long, long time. Meanwhile, Putin is going to continue his war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

DocBarrister

[jhu72]

Putin has cancer. Is going into the hospital for an operation.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/pu ... uxbndlbing

No large mainstream credible source has verified this report. There are obvious possibilities why Putin would want this news, either true of fake, out in circulation. Mainstream credible sources have reported in the past week that Putin did not look well and appeared to be suffering from something.

[youthathletics]

Putin has cancer. Is going into the hospital for an operation.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/pu ... uxbndlbing

No large mainstream credible source has verified this report. There are obvious possibilities why Putin would want this news, either true of fake, out in circulation. Mainstream credible sources have reported in the past week that Putin did not look well and appeared to be suffering from something.

Interesting.....although be careful what you wish you for, the next guy could be worse.

[jhu72]

Putin has cancer. Is going into the hospital for an operation.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/pu ... uxbndlbing

No large mainstream credible source has verified this report. There are obvious possibilities why Putin would want this news, either true of fake, out in circulation. Mainstream credible sources have reported in the past week that Putin did not look well and appeared to be suffering from something.

Interesting.....although be careful what you wish you for, the next guy could be worse.

... would not be surprised to see the brutality turned up

[MDlaxfan76]

Was watching games today, yes!

IMO, Putin's military needs to be pushed out of Ukraine entirely, however long that takes, but sooner the better certainly. That's what the Ukrainians want, as long as they are armed to do it. They want reparations for the destruction and accountability for the war crimes...that'll take longer, but there will be no true peace possible, at this point, until Putin is deposed and the Russian people are led by people who understand what really happened and want to make amends.

And indeed, that's possible, while simultaneously actually increasing the prosperity of the average Russian, given the end of the kleptocracy that's bled them for multiple decades.

Yes, they can get progressively pushed back, yet still doing great damage deep within Ukraine...no doubt. So, pushing them out of Ukraine fully may well also require weapons that can destroy their artillery and missile launches from within Russia as well, though an 'iron dome' is potentially an alternative. The latter would be preferable, but the Russian military may need to feel the pain wherever they are firing from, no safe haven.

It needn't require American or other NATO troops to do it, but it will require our weaponry and technology, intelligence, etc. But if Putin resorts to chem, bio, or nuclear, we take out their military hard and fast from the air. And they should know that'll happen through our military to military communications. That's definitely not what we want to have to do, but we need to be prepared to do it.

a fan is correct that choking the Russian economy is the second, critical element. That's a longer term commitment, which will be challenging to sustain if Putin decides to pull out and posture as if he's going to not rearm and attack again. But doable, given the ongoing threat as long as Putin's calling the shots. No one should ever believe or trust him ever again.

But letting Putin consolidate the Donbas and land bridge to Crimea, with the expressed aspirations to take Odessa all the way through to Moldova... And ultimately take all of Ukraine...is all a non-starter for the Ukrainians and we should support their resolve, else it'll green light any nuclear power in the world to simply saber rattle and then take what they want.

Yes, it's all ugly, and yes, it's all costly, so the sooner we arm them with the very best that the West has at its disposal, the better.

But we do need to be sure we're not out ahead of where are allies are on this...fortunately, others in Europe are seeing this threat even more clearly than perhaps we do. It's on their doorstep.

We're not holding any allies back. Just the opposite. So you don't want the fighting to stop so we can keep the sanctions on, regardless of the continued death & carnage in Ukraine & the damage to the global economy & food supply.

Are you confident that the Ukrainians can take back the land bridge, let alone Crimea ?
Have you looked at a map of the area & what Russia has gained ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
How do you propose they regain control of the Sea of Azov & the ports therein ?

You greatly overestimate US military capacity & our ability to bring it to bear in that location. You also overestimate the access we could expect to NATO ally bases, surface transit routes & airspace. ...if only it were as simple as you propose. ....& can you guarantee long term US public support or support from the WH beyond 2024 ?

Poland and Slovakia are out front, Brits are ahead of us. France's rejection of Le Pen was important, Germany has had a sea change of views. The US is clearly the lead player and organizer, but what I meant is that we need to not come across too our allies as the precipitator of the carnage.

Doc is right, there's no forcing Putin to a cease fire, (much less any form of accountability), until his military is exhausted and on the run. Doesn't matter what we'd prefer, Putin ain't stopping as long as he sees the West wavering in any way.

Your admonitions about the difficulty of achieving what's very likely to be necessary are reasonable. But you were dead wrong about the Ukrainian resolve and dead wrong about the willingness of the Europeans to step up. So...let's hope you are dead wrong about Russia's capability to hold the territory and dead wrong about our abilities to make the difference for the Ukrainians.

Hope's not a strategy, but it's unfortunately the best we have given Putin on the other side.

[old salt]

Was watching games today, yes!

IMO, Putin's military needs to be pushed out of Ukraine entirely, however long that takes, but sooner the better certainly. That's what the Ukrainians want, as long as they are armed to do it. They want reparations for the destruction and accountability for the war crimes...that'll take longer, but there will be no true peace possible, at this point, until Putin is deposed and the Russian people are led by people who understand what really happened and want to make amends.

And indeed, that's possible, while simultaneously actually increasing the prosperity of the average Russian, given the end of the kleptocracy that's bled them for multiple decades.

Yes, they can get progressively pushed back, yet still doing great damage deep within Ukraine...no doubt. So, pushing them out of Ukraine fully may well also require weapons that can destroy their artillery and missile launches from within Russia as well, though an 'iron dome' is potentially an alternative. The latter would be preferable, but the Russian military may need to feel the pain wherever they are firing from, no safe haven.

It needn't require American or other NATO troops to do it, but it will require our weaponry and technology, intelligence, etc. But if Putin resorts to chem, bio, or nuclear, we take out their military hard and fast from the air. And they should know that'll happen through our military to military communications. That's definitely not what we want to have to do, but we need to be prepared to do it.

a fan is correct that choking the Russian economy is the second, critical element. That's a longer term commitment, which will be challenging to sustain if Putin decides to pull out and posture as if he's going to not rearm and attack again. But doable, given the ongoing threat as long as Putin's calling the shots. No one should ever believe or trust him ever again.

But letting Putin consolidate the Donbas and land bridge to Crimea, with the expressed aspirations to take Odessa all the way through to Moldova... And ultimately take all of Ukraine...is all a non-starter for the Ukrainians and we should support their resolve, else it'll green light any nuclear power in the world to simply saber rattle and then take what they want.

Yes, it's all ugly, and yes, it's all costly, so the sooner we arm them with the very best that the West has at its disposal, the better.

But we do need to be sure we're not out ahead of where are allies are on this...fortunately, others in Europe are seeing this threat even more clearly than perhaps we do. It's on their doorstep.

We're not holding any allies back. Just the opposite. So you don't want the fighting to stop so we can keep the sanctions on, regardless of the continued death & carnage in Ukraine & the damage to the global economy & food supply.

Are you confident that the Ukrainians can take back the land bridge, let alone Crimea ?
Have you looked at a map of the area & what Russia has gained ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
How do you propose they regain control of the Sea of Azov & the ports therein ?

You greatly overestimate US military capacity & our ability to bring it to bear in that location. You also overestimate the access we could expect to NATO ally bases, surface transit routes & airspace. ...if only it were as simple as you propose. ....& can you guarantee long term US public support or support from the WH beyond 2024 ?

Poland and Slovakia are out front, Brits are ahead of us. France's rejection of Le Pen was important, Germany has had a sea change of views. The US is clearly the lead player and organizer, but what I meant is that we need to not come across too our allies as the precipitator of the carnage.

Doc is right, there's no forcing Putin to a cease fire, (much less any form of accountability), until his military is exhausted and on the run. Doesn't matter what we'd prefer, Putin ain't stopping as long as he sees the West wavering in any way.

Your admonitions about the difficulty of achieving what's very likely to be necessary are reasonable. But you were dead wrong about the Ukrainian resolve and dead wrong about the willingness of the Europeans to step up. So...let's hope you are dead wrong about Russia's capability to hold the territory and dead wrong about our abilities to make the difference for the Ukrainians.

Hope's not a strategy, but it's unfortunately the best we have given Putin on the other side.

Wishful thinking. Your strategy is based on hope, not reality or demonstrated capability.

Ukrainian resolve is not in question. Their potential capability is. There's only so much we can do for them when they are already in a full scale war on their own territory, which we can access only via a narrow, vulnerable ground route. We cannot supply them by sea & air. In the middle of a war, we can't take entire units out of the fight, or form & train new units to maintain & employ new weapons systems, let alone naval & air force capacity.

The EU collectively, should be matching or exceeding the US in cumulative economic & military aid. They are not. Their hesitancy to give up Soviet legacy weapons systems (like the S-300's, Mig-29's & SU-25's) are indicative of their hesitancy. Based on their contributions & resistance so far, it's hard to imagine Hungary & Bulgaria supporting anything short of an Article 5 response to a direct attack on a NATO member. What are Spain, Portugal & Belgium providing to Ukraine ? The vaunted German contribution is 50 tracked AA guns that have been in storage since they were removed from service in 2010 when they were deemed obsolete for current warfare. We're taking 155 mm howitzers from USMC units in CA & flying them over. How many howitzers are the EUros providing ? Do Spain, Portugal, & the rest of western Euro allies have an urgent need for field artillery that they have yet to deploy to NATO's E flank ?

After the current battle for Donbas, there will be a stalemate. At that point, it will be possible to force both Putin & Zelensky into negotiations with a cease fire in place, ...unless we prefer to prolong the fighting to further degrade the Russian military. This level of warfare does not need to continue for years, unless we choose to enable it for that long.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Was watching games today, yes!

IMO, Putin's military needs to be pushed out of Ukraine entirely, however long that takes, but sooner the better certainly. That's what the Ukrainians want, as long as they are armed to do it. They want reparations for the destruction and accountability for the war crimes...that'll take longer, but there will be no true peace possible, at this point, until Putin is deposed and the Russian people are led by people who understand what really happened and want to make amends.

And indeed, that's possible, while simultaneously actually increasing the prosperity of the average Russian, given the end of the kleptocracy that's bled them for multiple decades.

Yes, they can get progressively pushed back, yet still doing great damage deep within Ukraine...no doubt. So, pushing them out of Ukraine fully may well also require weapons that can destroy their artillery and missile launches from within Russia as well, though an 'iron dome' is potentially an alternative. The latter would be preferable, but the Russian military may need to feel the pain wherever they are firing from, no safe haven.

It needn't require American or other NATO troops to do it, but it will require our weaponry and technology, intelligence, etc. But if Putin resorts to chem, bio, or nuclear, we take out their military hard and fast from the air. And they should know that'll happen through our military to military communications. That's definitely not what we want to have to do, but we need to be prepared to do it.

a fan is correct that choking the Russian economy is the second, critical element. That's a longer term commitment, which will be challenging to sustain if Putin decides to pull out and posture as if he's going to not rearm and attack again. But doable, given the ongoing threat as long as Putin's calling the shots. No one should ever believe or trust him ever again.

But letting Putin consolidate the Donbas and land bridge to Crimea, with the expressed aspirations to take Odessa all the way through to Moldova... And ultimately take all of Ukraine...is all a non-starter for the Ukrainians and we should support their resolve, else it'll green light any nuclear power in the world to simply saber rattle and then take what they want.

Yes, it's all ugly, and yes, it's all costly, so the sooner we arm them with the very best that the West has at its disposal, the better.

But we do need to be sure we're not out ahead of where are allies are on this...fortunately, others in Europe are seeing this threat even more clearly than perhaps we do. It's on their doorstep.

We're not holding any allies back. Just the opposite. So you don't want the fighting to stop so we can keep the sanctions on, regardless of the continued death & carnage in Ukraine & the damage to the global economy & food supply.

Are you confident that the Ukrainians can take back the land bridge, let alone Crimea ?
Have you looked at a map of the area & what Russia has gained ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
How do you propose they regain control of the Sea of Azov & the ports therein ?

You greatly overestimate US military capacity & our ability to bring it to bear in that location. You also overestimate the access we could expect to NATO ally bases, surface transit routes & airspace. ...if only it were as simple as you propose. ....& can you guarantee long term US public support or support from the WH beyond 2024 ?

Poland and Slovakia are out front, Brits are ahead of us. France's rejection of Le Pen was important, Germany has had a sea change of views. The US is clearly the lead player and organizer, but what I meant is that we need to not come across too our allies as the precipitator of the carnage.

Doc is right, there's no forcing Putin to a cease fire, (much less any form of accountability), until his military is exhausted and on the run. Doesn't matter what we'd prefer, Putin ain't stopping as long as he sees the West wavering in any way.

Your admonitions about the difficulty of achieving what's very likely to be necessary are reasonable. But you were dead wrong about the Ukrainian resolve and dead wrong about the willingness of the Europeans to step up. So...let's hope you are dead wrong about Russia's capability to hold the territory and dead wrong about our abilities to make the difference for the Ukrainians.

Hope's not a strategy, but it's unfortunately the best we have given Putin on the other side.

Wishful thinking. Your strategy is based on hope, not reality or demonstrated capability.

Ukrainian resolve is not in question. Their potential capability is. There's only so much we can do for them when they are already in a full scale war on their own territory, which we can access only via a narrow, vulnerable ground route. We cannot supply them by sea & air. In the middle of a war, we can't take entire units out of the fight, or form & train new units to maintain & employ new weapons systems, let alone naval & air force capacity.

The EU collectively, should be matching or exceeding the US in cumulative economic & military aid. They are not. Their hesitancy to give up Soviet legacy weapons systems (like the S-300's, Mig-29's & SU-25's) are indicative of their hesitancy. Based on their contributions & resistance so far, it's hard to imagine Hungary & Bulgaria supporting anything short of an Article 5 response to a direct attack on a NATO member. What are Spain, Portugal & Belgium providing to Ukraine ? The vaunted German contribution is 50 tracked AA guns that have been in storage since they were removed from service in 2010 when they were deemed obsolete for current warfare. We're taking 155 mm howitzers from USMC units in CA & flying them over. How many howitzers are the EUros providing ? Do Spain, Portugal, & the rest of western Euro allies have an urgent need for field artillery that they have yet to deploy to NATO's E flank ?

After the current battle for Donbas, there will be a stalemate. At that point, it will be possible to force both Putin & Zelensky into negotiations with a cease fire in place, ...unless we prefer to prolong the fighting to further degrade the Russian military. This level of warfare does not need to continue for years, unless we choose to enable it for that long.

I see it’s the USA’s fault again.

[MDlaxfan76]

Serious question...how will Putin be "forced" "into negotiations" for a "cease fire"?
That is actually sustained?

I just don't see that happening, and zero reason to trust that Putin would honor any such.

I don't see this ending in any sort of cease fire until the Russian military is literally on the run.
Putin won't be willing to stop, though he could feint that he is, while regrouping.
But a stalemate won't cut it.

Yes, hard. And yes, "hope" is not enough.
And yes, Europeans need to keep doing more and more...but gotta remember than when they send weapons, without replacements ready, they're sacrificing, at least potentially, their own defensive capabilities. We have far less such concerns.

Yeah, that's the problem with democracy...need the public.

In Germany, the opposition is pushing Scholz hard to do much more, and accusing him of potentially reneging on their 2% commitment, which Scholz is denying...political pressure is heavy. They're sending German tanks to eastern European countries in replacement for the soviet tanks they're sending to Ukraine. This past week they agreed to send German tanks directly to Ukraine as well. Last vote was 586-100 supporting Ukraine measures.

[old salt]

I see it’s the USA’s fault again.

We have no influence over what's happening in Ukraine. We're just along for the ride.

[MDlaxfan76]

I see it’s the USA’s fault again.

We have no influence over what's happening in Ukraine. We're just along for the ride.

Our "influence" gives Ukraine a fighting chance, else they will ALL be slaughtered or moved 9,000 miles away to gulags.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I see it’s the USA’s fault again.

We have no influence over what's happening in Ukraine. We're just along for the ride.

Neither does Putin. It’s our fault.