I am not sure of the "tone" of your commentary here, what are you trying to convey?
Sour grapes.
What “tone”? The pro-Putin, pro-Russia “tone”?
DocBarrister
Nothing but political rah rah is tolerated here. Don't tell us anything we do not want to hear.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-nuclear- ... 04539.html CIA Director William Burns said the threat of Russia potentially using nuclear weapons in Ukraine could not be taken lightly, but the agency had not seen much evidence reinforcing that concern.
During a speech on April 14, Burns spoke of the "potential desperation" and setbacks faced by Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose forces have suffered heavy losses and have been forced to retreat from some parts of northern Ukraine after failing to capture Kyiv.
"Given the potential desperation of President Putin and the Russian leadership, given the setbacks that they've faced so far, militarily, none of us can take lightly the threat posed by a potential resort to tactical nuclear weapons or low-yield nuclear weapons," Burns said.
The Kremlin said it placed Russian nuclear forces on high alert shortly after it launched its unprovoked war on Ukraine on February 24, but the United States has not seen "a lot of practical evidence" of actual deployments that would cause more worry, Burns added, speaking to students at Georgia Tech university.
"We're obviously very concerned. I know President Biden is deeply concerned about avoiding a third world war, about avoiding a threshold in which, you know, nuclear conflict becomes possible," Burns said.
I am not sure of the "tone" of your commentary here, what are you trying to convey?
Don't rely solely on the US media alone to give you the full picture, especially if you seek detail.
Agreed.
by cradleandshoot » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:57 am Mr moderator, deactivate my account. You have heck this forum up to making it nothing more than a joke. I hope you are happy. This is cradle and shoot signing out.
I appreciate Salty's links as well as his personal analysis, particularly on military details. I often learn something new from him.
That said, I think he's way off the mark, frequently, on the political analysis, as well as his too often hard right-wing take on all things media and intelligence services, but it makes for interesting discussion; and valuable when it focuses on military details for sure.
Big difference from the right wing trolls on here who are too stupid or partisan to even have a conversation.
And a good brake on those of us, and I count myself in this camp, who might be overly enthusiastic or optimistic on various points.
As I think Salty's instincts are genuinely "patriotic", I appreciate his different perspective and willingness to engage intellectually.
Most problematic, at least to me, is the lack of sufficiently acute appreciation for the imperatives of democracy versus autocracy, but I think that's a reflection of years and years of hard right conservative propaganda from the Russians and their ilk, embraced by many in America, and the West more generally, who find "nationalism", especially 'white christian nationalism' to still be appealing....at least until we see where such takes us by an aggressor nation or dictator.
I'd like to think that each of us who engage honestly can evolve our thinking on various issues, even if only on the margins.
I am not sure of the "tone" of your commentary here, what are you trying to convey?
Don't rely solely on the US media alone to give you the full picture, especially if you seek detail.
Yeah,, right. Do you suggest using Rooskie State TV?
No Sherlock, just look at the links I've cited. Did your NYT tell you any detail about all the losses to the Ukrainian Navy ?
Thx Watson.
Those stories about the Uke Navy were well publicized back when they occurred.
...but you did not find them worthy of mention in this thread. I do not recall seeing the losses reported on any tv networks.
mmm, the NYT reported on it...I don't read every paper, watch every TV channel, etc, so I have no idea how much coverage it got on each network, but as I said earlier, certainly the MSM has been chock a block with the beating the Ukrainians have taken, the cities utterly destroyed, the civilians bombed, the war atrocities, etc. There's been no lack of sense that the Ukrainians have been vastly out manned and out gunned.
I am not sure of the "tone" of your commentary here, what are you trying to convey?
Sour grapes.
What “tone”? The pro-Putin, pro-Russia “tone”?
DocBarrister
Nothing but political rah rah is tolerated here. Don't tell us anything we do not want to hear.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-nuclear- ... 04539.html CIA Director William Burns said the threat of Russia potentially using nuclear weapons in Ukraine could not be taken lightly, but the agency had not seen much evidence reinforcing that concern.
During a speech on April 14, Burns spoke of the "potential desperation" and setbacks faced by Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose forces have suffered heavy losses and have been forced to retreat from some parts of northern Ukraine after failing to capture Kyiv.
"Given the potential desperation of President Putin and the Russian leadership, given the setbacks that they've faced so far, militarily, none of us can take lightly the threat posed by a potential resort to tactical nuclear weapons or low-yield nuclear weapons," Burns said.
The Kremlin said it placed Russian nuclear forces on high alert shortly after it launched its unprovoked war on Ukraine on February 24, but the United States has not seen "a lot of practical evidence" of actual deployments that would cause more worry, Burns added, speaking to students at Georgia Tech university.
"We're obviously very concerned. I know President Biden is deeply concerned about avoiding a third world war, about avoiding a threshold in which, you know, nuclear conflict becomes possible," Burns said.
No surprise here, it's the mentality of the entire FLP brethren on this site. Would rather bury their heads in the sand than hear something that may not align with their narrative beliefs. The alarming thing s the lengths that they will go to silence those opinions. That's some REAL misinformation.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:03 pm
Most problematic, at least to me, is the lack of sufficiently acute appreciation for the imperatives of democracy versus autocracy, but I think that's a reflection of years and years of hard right conservative propaganda from the Russians and their ilk, embraced by many in America, and the West more generally, who find "nationalism", especially 'white christian nationalism' to still be appealing....at least until we see where such takes us by an aggressor nation or dictator.
I try to assess real world threats, regardless of who poses them or why. That is what I was trained to do, ...& did vs the USSR most of my working life.
It is ironic that now those remnants are in play on both sides of this war.
I fear that the emotional cheer leading perspective of our main stream AND social media mask the true danger in our current confrontation with Russia.
Both sides in this war are "White Christian Nationalists". obtw -- the Azov brigade are still bravely defending Mariupol.
I linked them directly above, what are you talking about?
You said they hadn't reported on it, but they obviously did. March 4.
TASS ???
You did not link them until I called for it.
As usual, you miss the point about TASS & other sources like RT & Sputnik. They provide more useful, detailed tech info & visuals than do sources which pass your litmus test. You think the NYT, WP, WSJ & AP don't look at them when researching their stories ? How about our intel services un their analysis. Yet if someone cites them here, you reflexively cite them as propaganda, even when they convey useful info.
I am not sure of the "tone" of your commentary here, what are you trying to convey?
Don't rely solely on the US media alone to give you the full picture, especially if you seek detail.
Yeah,, right. Do you suggest using Rooskie State TV?
No Sherlock, just look at the links I've cited. Did your NYT tell you any detail about all the losses to the Ukrainian Navy ?
Thx Watson.
Those stories about the Uke Navy were well publicized back when they occurred.
...but you did not find them worthy of mention in this thread. I do not recall seeing the losses reported on any tv networks.
I saw it in any number of networks. So much for your premise, Watson.
You must have a very exotic cable package. Examine the search results for video when you google :
[Hetman Sahaidachny'], [Ukrainian flagship scuttled], [Ukrainian flagship sunk]
...most video found about the Moskva.
A "more nuanced" revisionist history of the Azov Battalion, ...now that they're winning on the battlefield.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... -militias/ ...Of all the Ukrainian forces fighting the invading Russian military, the most controversial is the Azov Battalion. It is among Ukraine’s most adept military units and has battled Russian forces in key sites, including the besieged city of Mariupol and near the capital, Kyiv. With Russian forces withdrawing from areas north of Kyiv last week and possibly repositioning in southern and eastern Ukraine, which Moscow has declared as its primary focus, the Azov forces could grow in significance.
Yet interviews with Azov fighters and one of its founders, as well as experts who have tracked the battalion from its beginnings, provide a more nuanced picture of its current state, which is more complex than what is conventionally known.
The battalion’s own leaders and fighters concede that some extremists remain in their ranks, but it has evolved since its emergence in 2014 during the conflict in eastern Ukraine against Russian forces and Moscow-backed separatists.
Under pressure from U.S. and Ukrainian authorities, the Azov battalion has toned down its extremist elements. And the Ukrainian military has also become stronger in the past eight years and therefore less reliant on paramilitary groups. Moreover, today’s war against Russia is far different than in 2014, fueled less by political ideology than a sense of patriotism and moral outrage at Russia’s unprovoked assault on Ukraine, especially its civilian population. ...“So while the far-right element is still a factor, I think it’s a much smaller part of the overall whole. It’s been diluted, in some respects.”
Analysts also noted that Ukraine’s far-right movement is not just small in Ukraine, but also is dwarfed by far-right movements in other parts of Europe.
In an interview, the force’s co-founder and top commander, Col. Andriy Biletskiy, did not dispute his far-right ultraconservative leanings or the presence of some extremists in his units. But he rejected the allegations of Nazism and white supremacist views, describing such charges as Russian propaganda.
“We don’t identify ourselves with the Nazi ideology,” said Biletskiy, 41. “We have people of conservative political views, and I see myself as such. But, as any person, I don’t want my views to be defined by others. I’m not a Nazi. We completely reject it.”
Michael Colborne, who monitors and researches the far right and wrote a book about the Azov, said that he “wouldn’t call it explicitly a neo-Nazi movement.”
“There are clearly neo-Nazis within its ranks,” said Colborne, author of “From the Fires of War: Ukraine’s Azov Movement and the Global Far Right.”
“There are elements in it who are, you know, neo-fascist and there are elements who are maybe more kind of old-school Ukrainian nationalist,” he said. “At its core, it’s hostile to liberal democracy. It’s hostile to every everything that comes with liberal democracy, minority rights, voting rights, things like that.”
The Azov rose up initially in the spring of 2014 as a volunteer force launched by the ultranationalist Patriot of Ukraine and the extremist Social National Assembly. Both groups engaged in xenophobic assaults on migrants, the Roma community and other minorities.
Biletskiy, who served as the leader of both groups, said in 2010 that Ukraine’s purpose was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [inferior races],” according to local reports. His supporters called him “Bely Vozd” — “White Ruler.”
Biletskiy denied the allegations of xenophobia, saying that Azov forces have attracted Jews from the Israeli Defense Forces as well as Muslim Chechens, which “doesn’t really go along with white supremacy.” Still, Biletskiy has been quoted in the past expressing white supremacist beliefs; he has denied making those statements.
In 2014, Biletskiy was elected to parliament, where he remained a lawmaker until 2019. In 2016, he created the far-right National Corps party, made up largely of Azov veterans.
The paramilitary unit was initially funded by wealthy Ukrainians and assisted by the nation’s then-interior minister, and the investment soon paid off. After the Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014, the Azov fighters fended off Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region and kept the strategic port city of Mariupol in Ukrainian hands. “These are our best warriors,” Ukraine’s then-president, Petro Poroshenko, said publicly at the time.
Transnational support for Azov has been wide, and Ukraine has emerged as a new hub for the far right across the world. Both the Ukrainian and Russian sides have attracted neo-Nazis and far-right extremists, although Moscow’s use of them has attracted far less attention in the Western media. Men from across three continents, including members of American and European extremist groups, have been documented to join the Azov units to seek combat experience, engage in similar ideology and as a training ground for operations in their home countries.
...Biletskiy disputed this, describing stories about foreign fighters as “strongly exaggerated.” Azov’s forces are between 95 to 98 percent Ukrainian, he said, adding that most foreigners are from Georgia and Belarus with some Americans, Europeans and Canadians. They include, he said, “military adventurists,” “devoted anti-communists” and Americans and Europeans of Ukrainian origins fighting for “their ancestors’ motherland.”
Despite their military successes, the Azov continued to be criticized as adherents to neo-Nazi ideology. Even as they have consistently denied any Nazi affiliations, their uniforms and tattoos on many of their fighters display a number of fascist and Nazi symbols, including swastikas and SS symbols. In 2015, Andriy Diachenko, the spokesperson for the regiment at the time, told USA Today that 10 to 20 percent of Azov’s recruits were Nazis.
In the following years, U.N. human rights officials accused the Azov regiment of violating international humanitarian laws; both the United States and Canada declared that its forces would not train the Azov fighters because of the unit’s links to neo-Nazis, though Washington has since lifted the ban. Some U.S. lawmakers have continued to urge for Azov to be designated a foreign terrorist organization.
Facebook, too, designated the Azov as a “dangerous organization” and banned it from its platforms two years ago. But after Russia invaded Ukraine on Feb. 24, Facebook reversed its ban, saying it would make “a narrow exception for praise of the Azov regiment strictly in the context of defending Ukraine, or in their role as part of the Ukraine national guard.”
The social media giant stressed that it had not lifted the ban on “all hate speech, hate symbolism, praise of violence, generic praise, support, or representation of the Azov regiment.” Today, the Azov battalion is getting much praise for strong stand against Russia in Mariupol. The battalion’s various Telegram channels post news of their exploits in addition to battlefield videos, detailing their victories in gruesome detail.
The battalion has more than a thousand fighters in Kyiv, Kharkiv and Dnipro, and smaller units in six other cities and towns across the nation, said Biletskiy, who estimated the total number of Azov forces at little more than 10,000. In Mariupol alone, he said last week, there were roughly 3,000 fighters taking on 14,000 Russian troops “fighting on the ground, on water and in the Navy SEALs.”
The pride of the Azov is its special forces battling in Mariupol, as Russian troops have put the city under weeks of siege, choking off supplies and cutting communications, water and electricity. Since Russian forces broke through their front lines earlier this month, they’ve been waging a guerrilla war against the Russian forces in the city.
“The guys are holding strong against the enemy and will never capitulate,” said Andriy, 26, who joined Azov when he was 18 years old and has a “Valhalla Awaits” tattoo stamped on his neck and now commands a unit. “They will fight to their last bullet and their last breath.”
Biletskiy said they are trying to weed out the neo-Nazi tattoos and other symbols among Azov fighters, but in the current war he cannot afford to lose any soldier because of political ideology, left or right.
“Every soldier that fights for Ukraine is of value now,” he said. “And of value to the Western world, because if Ukraine will break, the next in trouble will be the collective West.”
I am not sure of the "tone" of your commentary here, what are you trying to convey?
Don't rely solely on the US media alone to give you the full picture, especially if you seek detail.
Yeah,, right. Do you suggest using Rooskie State TV?
No Sherlock, just look at the links I've cited. Did your NYT tell you any detail about all the losses to the Ukrainian Navy ?
Thx Watson.
Those stories about the Uke Navy were well publicized back when they occurred.
...but you did not find them worthy of mention in this thread. I do not recall seeing the losses reported on any tv networks.
I saw it in any number of networks. So much for your premise, Watson.
You must have a very exotic cable package. Examine the search results for video when you google :
[Hetman Sahaidachny'], [Ukrainian flagship scuttled], [Ukrainian flagship sunk]
...most video found about the Moskva.
As usual, your assumptions about me and my cable package are bogus, Watson.
