OCanada wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:26 am
OS you keep jabbering about rite of passage and international law here but ignore those kinds of concerns elsewhere.
That they CAN close the straits is beyond question. That the USA has not had a plan is also beyond question. That a spark could set off a huge regional or perhaps global
is also beyond question.
Since the last confrontation Iran has had decades to perfect strategy. They are the brightest bulbs in the ME. I suspect they have used the time wisely as opposed to our vurrenr administration which is now demanding they return to doing what they were doing before trump got involved looking for something he can claim as a victory.
For the record Iran has never officially recognized the USA has any rights in the straits. This would not be a USA Iran conflict with everyone else watching. Iraq proved how badly people can kick the pooch
OC keeps jabbering about who knows what. The US can destroy Iran's military, but won't.
Intl law & right of passage matter in order to get a maritime coalition to keep the strait open, respect & join the sanctions regime & pressure Iran back to the negotiating table.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:20 pm
by old salt
From Defence One, The D Brief, today : Turkey is stockpiling weapons because Ankara fears the U.S. government will place sanctions on it for buying the S-400 missile defense system from Russia, Bloomberg reports: "Still haunted by a crippling U.S. arms embargo half a century ago, Turkey's military has been amassing parts for F-16 jets and other military hardware, according to two Turkish officials familiar with their country's defense strategy." Turkish media reports the first S-400 interceptors could arrive in "a week or 10 days."
From Defence One, The D Brief, today : Turkey is stockpiling weapons because Ankara fears the U.S. government will place sanctions on it for buying the S-400 missile defense system from Russia, Bloomberg reports: "Still haunted by a crippling U.S. arms embargo half a century ago, Turkey's military has been amassing parts for F-16 jets and other military hardware, according to two Turkish officials familiar with their country's defense strategy." Turkish media reports the first S-400 interceptors could arrive in "a week or 10 days."
Last month, our dear leaders made sure Qatar got to "buy" 24 Apache helo's for a cool $3 billion. Or, $100 million, each, ABOVE the sticker price of $35 million Something about foreign companies throwing pots for the kiln???? (manipulating our elected officials, hence elections ) Sen SHaheen (New Hampshire ) went against the Democratic grain and said NO to stopping Sen. Paul's bill to STOP these unethical arms sales.
From Defence One, The D Brief, today : Turkey is stockpiling weapons because Ankara fears the U.S. government will place sanctions on it for buying the S-400 missile defense system from Russia, Bloomberg reports: "Still haunted by a crippling U.S. arms embargo half a century ago, Turkey's military has been amassing parts for F-16 jets and other military hardware, according to two Turkish officials familiar with their country's defense strategy." Turkish media reports the first S-400 interceptors could arrive in "a week or 10 days."
Last month, our dear leaders made sure Qatar got to "buy" 24 Apache helo's for a cool $3 billion. Or, $100 million, each, ABOVE the sticker price of $35 million Something about foreign companies throwing pots for the kiln???? (manipulating our elected officials, hence elections ) Sen SHaheen (New Hampshire ) went against the Democratic grain and said NO to stopping Sen. Paul's bill to STOP these unethical arms sales.
Apples vs Oranges, ...or Apple vs Orchard.
Qatar's getting a lot more than just an aircraft, for your contrived unit cost.
The latest model Apache + large weapons inventory, support equipment, maint support & training.
The U.S. State Department approved the sale of 24 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters to Qatar at an estimated cost of $3 billion, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a release.
Qatar has requested to purchase 24 AH-64E Apache Guardian helicopters, eight AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars (FCR) with Radar Electronics Unit (LONGBOW component), 2,500 AGM-114R Hellfire missiles, and 25 Hellfire Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM), along with other equipment, spare and repair parts, support and training, the Thursday, May 9 release said.
The prime contractors will be Boeing, Lockheed Martin, General Electric, Longbow, Thales, and Raytheon.
The proposed sale will supplement the Qatar Emiri Air Force’s previous procurement of 24 AH-64Es
The 2012 State Department approval for the sale specified 24 AH-64D Apache Block III Longbow helicopters, the AH-64E’s predecessor. Letters of offer and acceptance were signed in 2014, part of a wider $11 billion deal that included Patriot missile defense systems and Javelin anti-tank guided missiles.
The Apache sale proposed in 2012 included Hellfire and Stinger missiles, as well as Hydra rockets for the helicopters.
In April 2018, the U.S. State Department approved a $300 million sale to Qatar of 5,000 Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System guided rockets for its Apache helicopters. BAE Systems’ APKWS upgrades 2.75-inch (70 mm) rockets to a semi-active laser guided precision weapon. The system is a design conversion for Hydra 70 unguided rockets turning them into low-yield precision-guided munitions to help avoid collateral damage.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:36 pm
by ABV 8.3%
Who is doing the support and training? US ARMY?
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 pm
by OCanada
OS again jabbers about international law when it suits him otherwise its throw people under the bus.
For anyone with a military background to claim Iran does not have the capacity to close the straits is well..,,
The question isn’t whether they can it’s a question of fir how long. Also what do they do to neighboring oil producers. Do they destroy a lot of capacity.
Russia invades Ukraine in violation of international law and its but the Russian heritage people nkt international law.
Anyone thinking this can’t escalate out of control is as dangerous as Bolton. But hey don’t rely on me do the research. There is a lot out there
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:55 pm
by old salt
ABV 8.3% wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:36 pm
Who is doing the support and training? US ARMY?
When you say they are buying stuff from the US, what do you mean? What will my dividend payout be?
24 helicopters, 100 pilots. Great, 2 or 3 jobs just opened up? $100 million in support and training, per helicopter. In perpetuity, or 3 years.
Guess Boeing IS a good stock to won
I'm with Sen. Paul on banning weapons sales to dubious allies. Where is Wolf/CNN and other anti war liberals to shake the defense industries pom poms
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:08 pm
by old salt
OCanada wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:52 pm
OS again jabbers about international law when it suits him otherwise its throw people under the bus.
For anyone with a military background to claim Iran does not have the capacity to close the straits is well..,,
The question isn’t whether they can it’s a question of fir how long. Also what do they do to neighboring oil producers. Do they destroy a lot of capacity.
Russia invades Ukraine in violation of international law and its but the Russian heritage people nkt international law.
Anyone thinking this can’t escalate out of control is as dangerous as Bolton. But hey don’t rely on me do the research. There is a lot out there
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said Iran does not have the ability to close the strait.
Iran has the ability to close the strait ...one time. The US (& allies) already have the assets in theater to re-open it.
Russia's annexation of Crimea & occupation of the Donbass are a fait accompli. It is beyond our ability to change.
We can continue to spend billions on a build up for another Cold War with Russia, & tie up a large % of out military forces, ...or we can reach a modus vivendi with Russia (similar to our 2 China policy) & focus our resources on the more urgent near term threats of Iran & N Korea, & the long term threat of China (& get help from Russia in doing so).
When you say they are buying stuff from the US, what do you mean? What will my dividend payout be?
24 helicopters, 100 pilots. Great, 2 or 3 jobs just opened up? $100 million in support and training, per helicopter. In perpetuity, or 3 years.
Guess Boeing IS a good stock to won
I'm with Sen. Paul on banning weapons sales to dubious allies. Where is Wolf/CNN and other anti war liberals to shake the defense industries pom poms
Look at the wiki page. Note the little national flags by ALL their various weapons.
They're going to buy them from someone. Better they buy them from the US & NATO allies than from Russia & China.
Despite Boeing's woes with the 737 MAX, BA is still the same price as it was after they grounded the MAX (when I bought on the dip ).
When you say they are buying stuff from the US, what do you mean? What will my dividend payout be?
24 helicopters, 100 pilots. Great, 2 or 3 jobs just opened up? $100 million in support and training, per helicopter. In perpetuity, or 3 years.
Guess Boeing IS a good stock to won
I'm with Sen. Paul on banning weapons sales to dubious allies. Where is Wolf/CNN and other anti war liberals to shake the defense industries pom poms
Look at the wiki page. Note the little national flags by ALL their various weapons.
They're going to buy them from someone. Better they buy them from the US & NATO allies than from Russia & China.
Despite Boeing's woes with the 737 MAX, BA is still the same price as it was after they grounded the MAX (when I bought on the dip ).
Why is it better that they buy from us instead of China? Seems to not matter when it comes to pretty much every other consumerable.
How about we sell our "allies" US made (hello Buffalo/Elon Musk) solar panels. Heard it's always sunny in the desert.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:32 pm
by a fan
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:16 pm
Better they buy them from the US & NATO allies than from Russia & China.
This makes no sense to me. Not what you are saying...but what we are allowing.
Why the firetruck is Turkey, or anyone else that's part of NATO, allowed to buy military equipment from either Russia or China?
Kinda defeats the point of the alliance, does it not?
old salt wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:16 pm
Better they buy them from the US & NATO allies than from Russia & China.
This makes no sense to me. Not what you are saying...but what we are allowing.
Why the firetruck is Turkey, or anyone else that's part of NATO, allowed to buy military equipment from either Russia or China?
Kinda defeats the point of the alliance, does it not?
That's why were holding firm on not selling Turkey the F-35 (& spare parts for their existing US weapons systems) IF they follow through on buying the S-400 from Russia. NATO agrees with us on this. Turkey has been becoming a less reliable ally ever since Erdogan came to power. I'm OK with not selling them the "good stuff" until they become a reliable ally again.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:20 pm
by a fan
I guess you have a more moderate stance than I.
Bounce them out of NATO the minute they buy from Russia. It makes no sense to let them do that.
If Turkey is called to fight Russia as per the treaty? Who would they call for military parts? It's silly.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:37 pm
by old salt
a fan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:20 pm
I guess you have a more moderate stance than I.
Bounce them out of NATO the minute they buy from Russia. It makes no sense to let them do that.
If Turkey is called to fight Russia as per the treaty? Who would they call for military parts? It's silly.
We go through these cycles with Turkey, it is not as stable a democracy as the rest of our NATO allies.
Their reliability as an ally is dependent upon the degree of influence wielded by their military at any point in time.
Under Erdogan, Turkey won't fight Russia. They're more likely to become Russia's ally than adversary.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:03 am
by OCanada
Nope OS. There is no way to predict the future. Once upon a time the was no way the USSR would fall. Rather they could rule the globe if not confronted.
We should not give away our future leverage because Putin wants to control a Port. He won’t be there forever and the future is very uncertainZ. Russia may decide it wants to develop an economy that actually works for its people. People used to say similar things back in the 1930s. I am pretty certain when I said Iran could close the straits you said they couldn’t because of passage rites. As I said above they can but for how long.
Your notion of one and done is quaint. Asymetric warfare would say it can be done more than once. We heard the same kind of thing before Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam ....
British marines seize tanker suspected of carrying Iranian oil bound for Syria
British Royal Marines in fast boats and helicopters on Thursday seized a supertanker suspected of carrying Iranian oil to Syria near the Mediterranean peninsula of Gibraltar, the first such detention of a ship under the terms of European sanctions targeting supplies to Syria.
The delivery appeared to violate European Union and U.S. sanctions on oil deliveries to the Iran-allied Syrian government. But suspicions that the oil originated in Iran could also aggravate the tensions between Western countries and Tehran that erupted after recent attacks on shipping in the Persian Gulf.
The Grace 1 tanker was seized after Gibraltar received information that offered “reasonable grounds” to conclude that the vessel was likely to be delivering oil to Syria in breach of E.U. sanctions on that country, according to a statement from the government in Gibraltar, which is indirectly ruled by Britain.
The Royal Marines assisted Gibraltar authorities to board the ship in the early hours of Thursday and detained the vessel and its cargo, the statement said. A British Defense Ministry spokeswoman said 30 British marines boarded the ship from boats and a helicopter after a request by Gibraltar, which lies along the coast of Spain at the mouth of the Mediterranean.
Gibraltar did not disclose the origin of the oil. The vessel is registered in Panama and owned by a Singapore-based company.
But Iran is the only nation known to be seeking to supply oil to Syria in defiance of an E.U. embargo as well as strict new U.S. sanctions targeting oil deliveries to Syria that have contributed to severe fuel shortages in government-held areas of the country.
The Reuters news agency said it had reviewed shipping data that suggested the tanker had been loaded with Iranian oil off the coast of Iran. The ship’s documents, however, say the oil is from neighboring Iraq, Reuters said.
This is the first time a European country has sought to impound deliveries of fuel to Syria, which has been subjected to E.U. sanctions since the ongoing conflict there erupted in 2011. Iran has regularly supplied fuel to President Bashar al-Assad’s regime throughout the war, as part of Tehran’s effort to sustain his hold on power.
Gibraltar said the oil was destined for Syria’s Baniyas refinery on the Mediterranean coast. As a government-owned entity, it was added to the E.U. sanctions list in 2014. Some European diplomats questioned, however, whether the sanctions could be legally applied to third countries and not just E.U. member states.
The U.S. sanctions imposed in November went further than the E.U. measures, targeting shipping owners and insurers associated with oil deliveries to Syria as well as the suppliers. They prompted a dramatic curtailment of Iranian supplies earlier this year and acute shortages of fuel, which prompted widespread grumbling among Syrians.
The supertanker had apparently made a circuitous journey from Iran around the Cape of Good Hope in Africa to the Mediterranean to avoid traversing the Suez Canal, the route previously taken by tankers sailing between Iran and Syria. Egyptian authorities detained a ship carrying Iranian oil to Syria at the canal earlier this year, and although Egypt has said the seizure was unrelated to the U.S. sanctions, Syria has said it suspects it was.
The Gibraltar incident could trigger new tensions between Britain and Spain over the peninsula’s status. Speaking in Madrid on Thursday, Spain’s acting foreign minister, Josep Borrell, said Spanish authorities were “looking into how this [operation] affects our sovereignty.”
Britain has considered Gibraltar, in southern Spain, to be part of its territory since the 1700s. Spain disputes those claims, which have become a major obstacle in negotiations over Britain’s departure from the E.U. Spain and Britain are part of the E.U.
Gibraltar mostly governs its own affairs, but its foreign policy is run out of London and the British military operates a small air force base there.
The Brits aren't mrssin' around. They sent 100 Royal Marines to the Gulf to ride their tankers when Iran blew holes in the first 4 tankers & they have a Frigate homeported in Bahrain.
Interesting perspective on the Iran situation, @ 16:00 -- now's the time for Macron to intercede on behalf of the EU, getting Iran back to the table.
US does not need to attend. If the EU can get Iran to extend the JCPOA & freeze ballistic missile development, I bet Trump would take it, declare victory & pressure the Senate to ratify it.
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:58 pm
by OCanada
To be clear Iran is not in violation of any agreement to do with nukes. The fact of the matter is the USA is now the party in violation of agreements.
The problem with not being intelligent enough to understand What the heck you think you are doing along with Bolton and Pompeo. We still have problems with Iraq and the costs of that will continue for years and years and years
Re: Our Undeclared Wars
Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:28 pm
by runrussellrun
OCanada wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:58 pm
To be clear Iran is not in violation of any agreement to do with nukes. The fact of the matter is the USA is now the party in violation of agreements.
The problem with not being intelligent enough to understand What the heck you think you are doing along with Bolton and Pompeo. We still have problems with Iraq and the costs of that will continue for years and years and years
What is the problem ?
It's gross......especially when half the family is involved. But, you, and so many others won't do a thing about out. Etched in stone, your (collective) inaction.
Something about foreign companies throwing pots for the kiln???? (manipulating our elected officials, hence elections ) Sen SHaheen (New Hampshire ) went against the Democratic grain and said NO to stopping Sen. Paul's bill to STOP these unethical arms sales. 
).
. Meanwhile, near the Strait of Gibraltar :