Page 26 of 92
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:02 pm
by old salt
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm
OS your plan seems to be we bring home a lot more Afghans. The whole ASF + others at risk. The ASF isn't going to fight a rear guard action if they aren't leaving on a plane out (along with their families). I want to see how many of our Red State's step up to offer living space to the (est. 125K) refugees we are bringing home now. Your plan would seem to require space for 3-4 times that number. Your plan also clearly has the feature of intending to turn Afghanistan over to the Taliban from the get go as ASF would be leaving. Hardly how the ASF was being sold to the American people.
Breaking news -- we are flying out the ASF commandos who are helping us at HKIA, & their families. Many of the ADF Commandos have made their was to the Panjshir Valley to join the resistance. Had we had stayed with the ASF at Bagram & those other NATO bases & pulled more back in with us, they would have had an option other than surrender.
... that's not the entire ASF. How much of the ASF would you have deployed in your plan? 4 times as many?
You don't know how many would not have surrendered had we not sneaked out at night & turned off the power, like Bob Irsay & the Colts.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:08 pm
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:02 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:58 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:49 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm
OS your plan seems to be we bring home a lot more Afghans. The whole ASF + others at risk. The ASF isn't going to fight a rear guard action if they aren't leaving on a plane out (along with their families). I want to see how many of our Red State's step up to offer living space to the (est. 125K) refugees we are bringing home now. Your plan would seem to require space for 3-4 times that number. Your plan also clearly has the feature of intending to turn Afghanistan over to the Taliban from the get go as ASF would be leaving. Hardly how the ASF was being sold to the American people.
Breaking news -- we are flying out the ASF commandos who are helping us at HKIA, & their families. Many of the ADF Commandos have made their was to the Panjshir Valley to join the resistance. Had we had stayed with the ASF at Bagram & those other NATO bases & pulled more back in with us, they would have had an option other than surrender.
... that's not the entire ASF. How much of the ASF would you have deployed in your plan? 4 times as many?
You don't know how many would not have surrendered had we not sneaked out at night & turned off the power, like Bob Irsay & the Colts.
More delusional fantasy.
Nothing was going to save the Afghan Security Forces. We invested countless billions of dollars in that army and after 20 years, what did we get? Special forces are never going to win you a war.
DocBarrister
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:10 pm
by jhu72
... that wasn't my question? How many ASF are we taking out now? How many under your plan? Seems to me under your plan, it would have been the entire force.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:12 pm
by old salt
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:55 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?
If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.
Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?
DocBarrister
Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.
Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.
Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.
Now you are going full on fantasy world here.
Biden’s plan has evacuated over 100,000 people in less than two weeks.
Do you think a helicopter lift to Bagram could have matched that?
I’m watching John Bolton, your spiritual guide, on MSNBC now. Man is completely delusional. Claims invading Iraq was not a “distraction” from Afghanistan. He’s openly arguing for a permanent deployment in Afghanistan. He claims the main failure in Afghanistan is the failure of “politicians” to communicate to the American People why the United States should have a permanent presence in Afghanistan.
That’s not ideology at work in John Bolton … it is mental illness, a psychotic and delusional fantasy vision of the world that is not grounded in reality.
DocBarrister
False choice -- it didn't have to be either HKIA or Bagram. It could have been both had Biden allowed some of the 7,000 troops we've flown in, to go in earlier, to cover our retreat. Our NATO allies were willing to stay & defend the air bases they garrisoned.
We & our NATO allies could still have evac'd those 100k from HKIA & even more from Bagram & those other 3 airfields. That would be 5 air bases for refugees to access & launching points for rescue missions to retrieve them.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:12 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:54 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:45 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?
If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.
Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?
DocBarrister
Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.
Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.
Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.
Maybe we shouldn’t have reached a bi-lateral agreement with the Taliban with very little conditions and perhaps we shouldn’t have drawn down so rapidly. Last guy wasn’t going to make it easy for the new guy. The type a guy that takes a dump in your house and then clogs up the toilet and then say it’s your fault when the bathroom floods. That’s your guy.
Excuses. Excuses. Nobody forced Biden to follow through on that agreement. The Taliban failed to meet enough of the conditions that Biden could have pulled out or delayed. Biden's been Commander in Chief for 7 mos. He had 9 mos to figure this out.
I wasn’t counting. We failed to be out by May 1st. He had 3 months to meet our commitment. What conditions of our agreement did the Taliban fail to meet? I am not saying they didn’t breach a covenant. I am asking.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:21 pm
by old salt
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:10 pm
... that wasn't my question? How many ASF are we taking out now? How many under your plan? Seems to me under your plan, it would have been the entire force.
That is unknowable. Probably just the ASF Commandos who'd be executed if captured. The others would have fought on longer if we were there. The others could still have surrendered after we left, if they did not want to resist. When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:32 pm
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:21 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:10 pm
... that wasn't my question? How many ASF are we taking out now? How many under your plan? Seems to me under your plan, it would have been the entire force.
That is unknowable. Probably just the ASF Commandos who'd be executed if captured. The others would have fought on longer if we were there. The others could still have surrendered after we left, if they did not want to resist. When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.
You’re correct at least on that one point: “When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.”
Whatever plans President Biden had made, he would have had to change those plans.
Our exit was never going to be orderly and predictable.
DocBarrister
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:34 pm
by old salt
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:12 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:54 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:45 pm
Maybe we shouldn’t have reached a bi-lateral agreement with the Taliban with very little conditions and perhaps we shouldn’t have drawn down so rapidly. Last guy wasn’t going to make it easy for the new guy. The type a guy that takes a dump in your house and then clogs up the toilet and then say it’s your fault when the bathroom floods. That’s your guy.
Excuses. Excuses. Nobody forced Biden to follow through on that agreement. The Taliban failed to meet enough of the conditions that Biden could have pulled out or delayed. Biden's been Commander in Chief for 7 mos. He had 9 mos to figure this out.
I wasn’t counting. We failed to be out by May 1st. He had 3 months to meet our commitment. What conditions of our agreement did the Taliban fail to meet? I am not saying they didn’t breach a covenant. I am asking.
@03:14
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-58311135
A peace deal between the Taliban & the Afghan govt.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:35 pm
by DocBarrister
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:12 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:55 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?
If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.
Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?
DocBarrister
Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.
Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.
Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.
Now you are going full on fantasy world here.
Biden’s plan has evacuated over 100,000 people in less than two weeks.
Do you think a helicopter lift to Bagram could have matched that?
I’m watching John Bolton, your spiritual guide, on MSNBC now. Man is completely delusional. Claims invading Iraq was not a “distraction” from Afghanistan. He’s openly arguing for a permanent deployment in Afghanistan. He claims the main failure in Afghanistan is the failure of “politicians” to communicate to the American People why the United States should have a permanent presence in Afghanistan.
That’s not ideology at work in John Bolton … it is mental illness, a psychotic and delusional fantasy vision of the world that is not grounded in reality.
DocBarrister
False choice -- it didn't have to be either HKIA or Bagram. It could have been both had Biden allowed some of the 7,000 troops we've flown in, to go in earlier, to cover our retreat. Our NATO allies were willing to stay & defend the air bases they garrisoned.
We & our NATO allies could still have evac'd those 100k from HKIA & even more from Bagram & those other 3 airfields. That would be 5 air bases for refugees to access & launching points for rescue missions to retrieve them.
Rescue missions … NO.
That was never going to happen on any large scale. The evacuees need to come to the United States forces. That was always going to be the case in the closing weeks of the withdrawal.
DocBarrister
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:40 pm
by old salt
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:35 pm
Rescue missions … NO.
That was never going to happen on any large scale. The evacuees need to come to the United States forces. That was always going to be the case in the closing weeks of the withdrawal.
DocBarrister
Tell that to the Brits & French. They've been doing it from the start.
How do you think our refugees have been getting in the past couple days. We're sending out buses to get them at rallying points.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:42 pm
by jhu72
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:32 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:21 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:10 pm
... that wasn't my question? How many ASF are we taking out now? How many under your plan? Seems to me under your plan, it would have been the entire force.
That is unknowable. Probably just the ASF Commandos who'd be executed if captured. The others would have fought on longer if we were there. The others could still have surrendered after we left, if they did not want to resist. When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.
You’re correct at least on that one point: “When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.”
Whatever plans President Biden had made, he would have had to change those plans.
Our exit was never going to be orderly and predictable.
DocBarrister
... that is certainly my feeling, Given what we now know as the facts, the fragility of the ASF, any plan is very very likely to have had bumps, big ones. when executed, over and above what the US military would normally expect of their own forces.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:44 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:34 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:12 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:54 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:45 pm
Maybe we shouldn’t have reached a bi-lateral agreement with the Taliban with very little conditions and perhaps we shouldn’t have drawn down so rapidly. Last guy wasn’t going to make it easy for the new guy. The type a guy that takes a dump in your house and then clogs up the toilet and then say it’s your fault when the bathroom floods. That’s your guy.
Excuses. Excuses. Nobody forced Biden to follow through on that agreement. The Taliban failed to meet enough of the conditions that Biden could have pulled out or delayed. Biden's been Commander in Chief for 7 mos. He had 9 mos to figure this out.
I wasn’t counting. We failed to be out by May 1st. He had 3 months to meet our commitment. What conditions of our agreement did the Taliban fail to meet? I am not saying they didn’t breach a covenant. I am asking.
@03:14
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-58311135
A peace deal between the Taliban & the Afghan govt.
Yep. Takes two sides to negotiate…
https://apnews.com/article/middle-east- ... d2d81a0f39
Anyway…..we should have maintained a show of force until a deal was reached instead of agreement to be out on May 1st based on a hope and a prayer. Hard to send troops back in. “We leaving”
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:51 pm
by old salt
DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:32 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:21 pm
jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:10 pm
... that wasn't my question? How many ASF are we taking out now? How many under your plan? Seems to me under your plan, it would have been the entire force.
That is unknowable. Probably just the ASF Commandos who'd be executed if captured. The others would have fought on longer if we were there. The others could still have surrendered after we left, if they did not want to resist. When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.
You’re correct at least on that one point: “When an Army starts to come apart, it is not predictable.”
Whatever plans President Biden had made, he would have had to change those plans.
Our exit was never going to be orderly and predictable.
DocBarrister
...& by vacating Bagram (& forcing our NATO allies to vacate the air bases they controlled) before the final days, we hastened the collapse of the Afghan govt & the ASF, reduced our options to adapt & forced our retreat through a narrow killing field.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:52 pm
by youthathletics
Utter criziness:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 10021.html
Pentagon admits ‘thousands’ of Isis-K militants released from US prisons by Taliban
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:56 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:57 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:04 pm
by youthathletics
We backed the release of ISIS while we are scrambling to exit....good lord, this admin is really foolish. THanks for that tidbit.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:06 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:06 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:04 pm
We backed the release of ISIS while we are scrambling to exit....good lord, this admin is really foolish. THanks for that tidbit.
We backed the new management team. They made the executive decisions….USA negotiated the release of Taliban fighters that went back to work upon release.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:10 pm
by youthathletics
Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:06 pm
youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 3:04 pm
We backed the release of ISIS while we are scrambling to exit....good lord, this admin is really foolish. THanks for that tidbit.
We backed the new management team. They made the executive decisions….USA negotiated the release of Taliban fighters that went back to work upon release.
Odd....how you know that, but Kirby and the General do not. You truly are omniscient.
