LaxPower Back-Up Stick

CU77 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:28 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:43 pm Так говорит путинская марионетка.

DocBarrister

Это было хорошо

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:24 pm ... The former commanding general of US Army Europe, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, said in a tweet that he was "sickened by this decision and explanation. It is not tied to any strategic advantage and in fact is counterproductive to showing strength in Europe."

And retired US Navy Adm. Jim Stravidis, the former top military commander in Europe and NATO, said in a tweet that "abruptly pulling 12,500 troops out of Germany (to put half of them in countries who spend LESS on defense) doesn't make sense financially, hurts NATO solidarity overall, and is a gift to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics ... index.html

Donald Trump is a traitor.

Any questions?

Good.

DocBarrister

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pentagon-t ... 1596026413

Under the plan, the U.S. European Command headquarters would move from Stuttgart, Germany, to Belgium, where it would be positioned near NATO’s military headquarters in Mons. The headquarters for U.S. Special Operations forces in Europe would also be moved to that location.

Air Force F-16 fighters would be shifted to the U.S. air base at Aviano, Italy.

The Army’s Stryker brigade in Germany, the 2nd Cavalry Regiment, would return to the U.S. The Pentagon would then begin rotating Stryker brigades through what Mr. Esper called the “Black Sea region,” but which the European Command plan specifies as Romania and Bulgaria, according to people who were briefed on the plan.

The Pentagon hasn’t said where the U.S. Africa Command’s headquarters in Germany would go. But the options include Naples, Italy, or possibly to the Moron air base or Rota naval base, both in Spain.

The U.S. would retain its major air base at Ramstein, Germany, and its Landstuhl military hospital.

Mr. Esper was vague about the cost of uprooting thousands or troops and building new buildings and installations. A U.S. official, however, said that the projected cost ranges from $6 billion to $8 billion and the process could take years.

Mr. Esper said he spoke to his German counterpart ahead of Wednesday’s announcement, but the process of consulting with other allies is in its early phases.

The defense secretary said there might be opportunities to move U.S. troops to Baltic states and also to Poland, once the necessary agreements with Warsaw are concluded.

It remains to be seen if Congress would approve the funds for such a major relocation. A spokesman for the Biden campaign said the Pentagon plan would be reviewed if presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden is elected.

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:24 pm Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's decision to pull nearly 12,000 US troops from Germany triggered an onslaught of disapproval from Republicans, Democrats and former senior military officials, who said the move will benefit Russia, degrade US national security and military readiness, cost US taxpayers billions and undermine US relations with Germany, NATO and Europe.

Trump's explanation to reporters about the withdrawal, announced Wednesday morning by Defense Secretary Mark Esper, misrepresented how NATO works and contradicted his own military officials, raising questions about what strategy -- if any -- drove the decision.

... The former commanding general of US Army Europe, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, said in a tweet that he was "sickened by this decision and explanation. It is not tied to any strategic advantage and in fact is counterproductive to showing strength in Europe."

And retired US Navy Adm. Jim Stravidis, the former top military commander in Europe and NATO, said in a tweet that "abruptly pulling 12,500 troops out of Germany (to put half of them in countries who spend LESS on defense) doesn't make sense financially, hurts NATO solidarity overall, and is a gift to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin."

... The President most recently spoke to Putin last Friday, the latest in a series of phone calls that CNN's Marshall Cohen has documented as the most sustained publicly disclosed period of contact between the two leaders. In an interview released Wednesday, Trump told Axios that in that conversation, he did not raise US intelligence that alleges Moscow offered bounties to Taliban fighters to kill US troops in Afghanistan.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics ... index.html

Donald Trump is a traitor.

Any questions?

CU77 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:25 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:25 pm As Ronald Reagan would say... there you go again. I don't support trump, I don't support Biden. I won't vote for either dipstick.

I find it amazing that you equate them. Just on the basis that Biden's son Beau spent a year in Iraq in the Army National Guard, it seems to me that Biden has a ton more respect for military service than Trump.

So who would you have wanted as D nominee that you would have voted for?

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:59 am

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:24 pm Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's decision to pull nearly 12,000 US troops from Germany triggered an onslaught of disapproval from Republicans, Democrats and former senior military officials, who said the move will benefit Russia, degrade US national security and military readiness, cost US taxpayers billions and undermine US relations with Germany, NATO and Europe.

Trump's explanation to reporters about the withdrawal, announced Wednesday morning by Defense Secretary Mark Esper, misrepresented how NATO works and contradicted his own military officials, raising questions about what strategy -- if any -- drove the decision.

... The former commanding general of US Army Europe, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, said in a tweet that he was "sickened by this decision and explanation. It is not tied to any strategic advantage and in fact is counterproductive to showing strength in Europe."

And retired US Navy Adm. Jim Stravidis, the former top military commander in Europe and NATO, said in a tweet that "abruptly pulling 12,500 troops out of Germany (to put half of them in countries who spend LESS on defense) doesn't make sense financially, hurts NATO solidarity overall, and is a gift to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin."

... The President most recently spoke to Putin last Friday, the latest in a series of phone calls that CNN's Marshall Cohen has documented as the most sustained publicly disclosed period of contact between the two leaders. In an interview released Wednesday, Trump told Axios that in that conversation, he did not raise US intelligence that alleges Moscow offered bounties to Taliban fighters to kill US troops in Afghanistan.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics ... index.html

Donald Trump is a traitor.

Any questions?

Yes. Two questions: In what world is bringing 6,000 of our men and women back to America a bad thing?

Couldn't be happier. I'm frankly stunned that it's actually happening. Wish it was all 12,000 troops coming home, instead of 6K just being moved to another pointless overseas position. But I'll take what I can get.

And secondly, you're supposed to be a liberal, no? How aren't you happy that the American war machine is packing up at least SOME of our overseas war machine, and coming home?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:02 am

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:59 am

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:24 pm Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump's decision to pull nearly 12,000 US troops from Germany triggered an onslaught of disapproval from Republicans, Democrats and former senior military officials, who said the move will benefit Russia, degrade US national security and military readiness, cost US taxpayers billions and undermine US relations with Germany, NATO and Europe.

Trump's explanation to reporters about the withdrawal, announced Wednesday morning by Defense Secretary Mark Esper, misrepresented how NATO works and contradicted his own military officials, raising questions about what strategy -- if any -- drove the decision.

... The former commanding general of US Army Europe, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, said in a tweet that he was "sickened by this decision and explanation. It is not tied to any strategic advantage and in fact is counterproductive to showing strength in Europe."

And retired US Navy Adm. Jim Stravidis, the former top military commander in Europe and NATO, said in a tweet that "abruptly pulling 12,500 troops out of Germany (to put half of them in countries who spend LESS on defense) doesn't make sense financially, hurts NATO solidarity overall, and is a gift to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin."

... The President most recently spoke to Putin last Friday, the latest in a series of phone calls that CNN's Marshall Cohen has documented as the most sustained publicly disclosed period of contact between the two leaders. In an interview released Wednesday, Trump told Axios that in that conversation, he did not raise US intelligence that alleges Moscow offered bounties to Taliban fighters to kill US troops in Afghanistan.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics ... index.html

Donald Trump is a traitor.

Any questions?

Yes. Two questions: In what world is bringing 6,000 of our men and women back to America a bad thing?

Couldn't be happier. I'm frankly stunned that it's actually happening. Wish it was all 12,000 troops coming home, instead of 6K just being moved to another pointless overseas position. But I'll take what I can get.

And secondly, you're supposed to be a liberal, no? How aren't you happy that the American war machine is packing up at least SOME of our overseas war machine, and coming home?

Both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' have supported a bulwark against war, against Russia and previously the Soviet Union, without considering it a 'war machine' that we would be better off if dismantled. The divide that has separated has been the magnitude of cost in military power versus soft power, and the use of power unilaterally versus multilaterally, more than whether power matters at all.

Those, IMO, are useful debates. So, too, is any decision to engage militarily.

Of course, there are also those who are isolationist, both on the left and on the right, who simply believe that any build up or exercise of power abroad begets evil outcomes, so withdrawal and isolation is always preferred.

In some cases, this is borne from a lack of recognition of the lessons of history that isolation is never safe and in other cases is a naive (unfortunately) hope for a utopian world in which conflict is resolved always peacefully.

I don't know where each of my fellow posters fall on these issues, and why, so I hope I haven't given offense. It's indeed a useful debate.

On this particular topic, I've had several friends who served, stationed in Germany, and they cherish those memories. Service there is a far cry from service in hot zones like Iraq and Afghanistan. I 'get' the desire to not have our people doing tour after tour after tour in such hot zones, the question of how to bring them safely home to their families. But our deployments in Europe are not such experiences. Seriously, where would you rather serve, some base in Alabama... or in Germany??

CU88 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:44 am Trump: "I read a lot. They like to say I don’t read, I read a lot."

⁦‪@jonathanvswan‬⁩: "You read your daily intelligence brief?"

Trump: "I comprehend extraordinarily well. Probably better than anybody that you’ve interviewed in a long time. I read a lot..."

So…that’s a no.

seacoaster wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:25 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:02 am

The former commanding general of US Army Europe, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, said in a tweet that he was "sickened by this decision and explanation. It is not tied to any strategic advantage and in fact is counterproductive to showing strength in Europe."

And retired US Navy Adm. Jim Stravidis, the former top military commander in Europe and NATO, said in a tweet that "abruptly pulling 12,500 troops out of Germany (to put half of them in countries who spend LESS on defense) doesn't make sense financially, hurts NATO solidarity overall, and is a gift to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics ... index.html

Both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' have supported a bulwark against war, against Russia and previously the Soviet Union, without considering it a 'war machine' that we would be better off if dismantled. The divide that has separated has been the magnitude of cost in military power versus soft power, and the use of power unilaterally versus multilaterally, more than whether power matters at all.

Those, IMO, are useful debates. So, too, is any decision to engage militarily.

Of course, there are also those who are isolationist, both on the left and on the right, who simply believe that any build up or exercise of power abroad begets evil outcomes, so withdrawal and isolation is always preferred.

In some cases, this is borne from a lack of recognition of the lessons of history that isolation is never safe and in other cases is a naive (unfortunately) hope for a utopian world in which conflict is resolved always peacefully.

I don't know where each of my fellow posters fall on these issues, and why, so I hope I haven't given offense. It's indeed a useful debate.

On this particular topic, I've had several friends who served, stationed in Germany, and they cherish those memories. Service there is a far cry from service in hot zones like Iraq and Afghanistan. I 'get' the desire to not have our people doing tour after tour after tour in such hot zones, the question of how to bring them safely home to their families. But our deployments in Europe are not such experiences. Seriously, where would you rather serve, some base in Alabama... or in Germany??

I agree with MD here: the purpose of troops deployments in meaningful numbers in Germany has been, to my knowledge, to provide the bulwark for a triggering of Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty -- when you make an incursion into a NATO ally, it really is an incursion against all. Bringing troops home? All for it. Weakening alliances and the weightiness of treaty commitments. Not as much.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:16 pm

seacoaster wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:25 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:02 am

The former commanding general of US Army Europe, retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, said in a tweet that he was "sickened by this decision and explanation. It is not tied to any strategic advantage and in fact is counterproductive to showing strength in Europe."

And retired US Navy Adm. Jim Stravidis, the former top military commander in Europe and NATO, said in a tweet that "abruptly pulling 12,500 troops out of Germany (to put half of them in countries who spend LESS on defense) doesn't make sense financially, hurts NATO solidarity overall, and is a gift to [Russian President Vladimir] Putin."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics ... index.html

Both 'liberals' and 'conservatives' have supported a bulwark against war, against Russia and previously the Soviet Union, without considering it a 'war machine' that we would be better off if dismantled. The divide that has separated has been the magnitude of cost in military power versus soft power, and the use of power unilaterally versus multilaterally, more than whether power matters at all.

Those, IMO, are useful debates. So, too, is any decision to engage militarily.

Of course, there are also those who are isolationist, both on the left and on the right, who simply believe that any build up or exercise of power abroad begets evil outcomes, so withdrawal and isolation is always preferred.

In some cases, this is borne from a lack of recognition of the lessons of history that isolation is never safe and in other cases is a naive (unfortunately) hope for a utopian world in which conflict is resolved always peacefully.

I don't know where each of my fellow posters fall on these issues, and why, so I hope I haven't given offense. It's indeed a useful debate.

On this particular topic, I've had several friends who served, stationed in Germany, and they cherish those memories. Service there is a far cry from service in hot zones like Iraq and Afghanistan. I 'get' the desire to not have our people doing tour after tour after tour in such hot zones, the question of how to bring them safely home to their families. But our deployments in Europe are not such experiences. Seriously, where would you rather serve, some base in Alabama... or in Germany??

I agree with MD here: the purpose of troops deployments in meaningful numbers in Germany has been, to my knowledge, to provide the bulwark for a triggering of Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty -- when you make an incursion into a NATO ally, it really is an incursion against all. Bringing troops home? All for it. Weakening alliances and the weightiness of treaty commitments. Not as much.

You are both voicing the same nostalgic attachment that I share with the senior officers quoted above, based upon our positive experience of being stationed & living with our families in the country of a NATO ally. I was stationed in Spain, but my duties took me to most of the NATO bases in W Europe. That experience was so positive that my wife & I took 2 month long leave-vacations touring Germany, staying at US military bases & taking advantage of their splendid MWR facilities & programs. My wife taught in the DoD schools in both Japan & Spain. Our retirement -- second career aspirations were based on her rejoining her friends & colleagues, teaching in the DoD schools in Germany. Alas, the end of the Cold War & the resulting downsizing of our NATO presence eliminated that opportunity. It was a tremendous opportunity to live in small town USA in an exotic first world foreign country. That opportunity still exists but on a much smaller scale.

It no longer makes sense to station front line US combat forces in Germany -- they're too far from where they're needed = NATO's E front & the GI/UK gap & the Med, which is where they remain. The only combat forces remaining in Germany were 1 x F-16 squadron, 1 Stryker Brigade, & our EU based SOF. They remain based in Germany, because there are existing cold war legacy facilities to host them. The HQ's, air hub, & massive hospital are fine in Germany, due to their central location & transportation network. IMHO -- it's not worth the expense & disruption of relocating them. For that reason, I don't expect it to happen. It does send a useful signal to Germany & our other recalcitrant NATO allies to contribute more to our shared defense effort.

I do agree that the Stryker Brigade is better provided by rotational US based brigades, now that V Corps has been re-established. It creates more US brigades experienced enough to quickly deploy to NATO's E front. I also agree that we don't need a F-16 squadron based in Germany. I'd like to see Spangdahelm preserved as a F-16 base that hosts Air National Guard squadrons who train there. There are 17 US based ANG squadrons operating the F-16 C/D. Several E coast ANG F-16 squadrons should be designated as NATO rapid reinforcement forces & their pilots & maintainers rotated through active duty training periods at Spangdahlem, so they'll be ready if needed.

Trump is forcing this issue for political purposes. I don't support it, on a cost-benefit basis.
Gen Hodges & his EUCOM predecessors wisely retained the most valuable US facilities in Germany, while combat units departed.
I give Esper, Milley & their Pentagon planners credit for coming up with a plan which enhances our combat capability, but at significant cost.
They made expensive lemonade from the lemons they were handed.

I still recommend my suggestions regarding the an ANG F-16 base & rotational Stryker Brigade, so long as it doesn't cause the loss of out massive combat training range complex in Bavaria, which could be better used by ALL NATO armies for joint training, ...if Germany would do their part & share more of the expense. They could do much more to leverage the participation of our other NATO allies, if they were as enthusiastic about the joint defense of NATO as when Warsaw Pact tanks were poised to roll through the Fulda Gap.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:16 pm You are both voicing the same nostalgic attachment that I share with the senior officers quoted above, based upon our positive experience of being stationed & living with our families in the country of a NATO ally. I was stationed in Spain, but my duties took me to most of the NATO bases in W Europe. That experience was so positive that my wife & I took 2 month long leave-vacations touring Germany, staying at US military bases & taking advantage of their splendid MWR facilities & programs. My wife taught in the DoD schools in both Japan & Spain. Our retirement -- second career aspirations were based on her rejoining her friends & colleagues, teaching in the DoD schools in Germany. Alas, the end of the Cold War & the resulting downsizing of our NATO presence eliminated that opportunity. It was a tremendous opportunity to live in small town USA in an exotic first world foreign country.

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:10 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 3:16 pm You are both voicing the same nostalgic attachment that I share with the senior officers quoted above, based upon our positive experience of being stationed & living with our families in the country of a NATO ally. I was stationed in Spain, but my duties took me to most of the NATO bases in W Europe. That experience was so positive that my wife & I took 2 month long leave-vacations touring Germany, staying at US military bases & taking advantage of their splendid MWR facilities & programs. My wife taught in the DoD schools in both Japan & Spain. Our retirement -- second career aspirations were based on her rejoining her friends & colleagues, teaching in the DoD schools in Germany. Alas, the end of the Cold War & the resulting downsizing of our NATO presence eliminated that opportunity. It was a tremendous opportunity to live in small town USA in an exotic first world foreign country.

You've led a charmed life, my friend.

Well earned...but charmed nonetheless.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:27 pm I married my lucky charm. She was with me every step of the way & shared it all. Couldn't have done it without her.
My parents, extended family, teachers, coaches, hometown friends & neighbors also dealt me a winning hand.
Not that unusual for those who gravitate toward a military career.

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:34 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:27 pm I married my lucky charm. She was with me every step of the way & shared it all. Couldn't have done it without her.
My parents, extended family, teachers, coaches, hometown friends & neighbors also dealt me a winning hand.
Not that unusual for those who gravitate toward a military career.

If you don't mind me asking----how did you meet?

If it's too personal, my apologies...

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:21 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:34 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:27 pm I married my lucky charm. She was with me every step of the way & shared it all. Couldn't have done it without her.
My parents, extended family, teachers, coaches, hometown friends & neighbors also dealt me a winning hand.
Not that unusual for those who gravitate toward a military career.

If you don't mind me asking----how did you meet?

If it's too personal, my apologies...

No problem. All our friends know the story. We went to HS together, but she was 2 years ahead of me. I admired her from afar, but she was unapproachable then, due to the HS caste system/age difference. We knew each other casually. Our dads served together on the school board. We had no contact while both in college.

Midway through flight school (in the midst of my prototypical hair-on-fire Naval Aviator bachelorhood), during a lucky delay between training phases, I was able to come home for leave (+ a Cardinal homestand & family vacation to Lake of the Ozarks). She was now back home, in her first teaching job. Her younger sister was working in our family grocery store. She suggested I give her a call. The 2 year seniority didn't matter any more. She attended all the ballgames & the lake vacation with me. It was the start of a torrid long distance, airline enabled 7 month romance, culminating in marriage immediately after I got my wings. The pivot point was when she flew to join me for Thanksgiving break in DC/Philly. My Corvette was stolen from the parking lot of the Army-Navy game. That effectively ended my bachelorhood. She says that the way I dealt with that situation & got us both back home for work by Mon, convinced her to propose marriage 3 mos later. The rest is 48 years of history.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:21 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:34 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:27 pm I married my lucky charm. She was with me every step of the way & shared it all. Couldn't have done it without her.
My parents, extended family, teachers, coaches, hometown friends & neighbors also dealt me a winning hand.
Not that unusual for those who gravitate toward a military career.

If you don't mind me asking----how did you meet?

If it's too personal, my apologies...

No problem. All our friends know the story. We went to HS together, but she was 2 years ahead of me. I admired her from afar, but she was unapproachable then, due to the HS caste system/age difference. We knew each other casually. Our dads served together on the school board. We had no contact while both in college.

Midway through flight school (in the midst of my prototypical hair-on-fire Naval Aviator bachelorhood), during a lucky delay between training phases, I was able to come home for leave (+ a Cardinal homestand & family vacation to Lake of the Ozarks). She was now back home, in her first teaching job. Her younger sister was working in our family grocery store. She suggested I give her a call. The 2 year seniority didn't matter any more. She attended all the ballgames & the lake vacation with me. It was the start of a torrid long distance, airline enabled 7 month romance, culminating in marriage immediately after I got my wings. The pivot point was when she flew to join me for Thanksgiving break in DC/Philly. My Corvette was stolen from the parking lot of the Army-Navy game. That effectively ended my bachelorhood. She says that the way I dealt with that situation & got us both back home for work by Mon, convinced her to propose marriage 3 mos later. The rest is 48 years of history.

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:21 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:34 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:27 pm I married my lucky charm. She was with me every step of the way & shared it all. Couldn't have done it without her.
My parents, extended family, teachers, coaches, hometown friends & neighbors also dealt me a winning hand.
Not that unusual for those who gravitate toward a military career.

If you don't mind me asking----how did you meet?

If it's too personal, my apologies...

No problem. All our friends know the story. We went to HS together, but she was 2 years ahead of me. I admired her from afar, but she was unapproachable then, due to the HS caste system/age difference. We knew each other casually. Our dads served together on the school board. We had no contact while both in college.

Midway through flight school (in the midst of my prototypical hair-on-fire Naval Aviator bachelorhood), during a lucky delay between training phases, I was able to come home for leave (+ a Cardinal homestand & family vacation to Lake of the Ozarks). She was now back home, in her first teaching job. Her younger sister was working in our family grocery store. She suggested I give her a call. The 2 year seniority didn't matter any more. She attended all the ballgames & the lake vacation with me. It was the start of a torrid long distance, airline enabled 7 month romance, culminating in marriage immediately after I got my wings. The pivot point was when she flew to join me for Thanksgiving break in DC/Philly. My Corvette was stolen from the parking lot of the Army-Navy game. That effectively ended my bachelorhood. She says that the way I dealt with that situation & got us both back home for work by Mon, convinced her to propose marriage 3 mos later. The rest is 48 years of history.

njbill wrote: ↑Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:57 pm Great story, os, except for the stolen ‘Vette part. I assume that was from the parking lot of the old JFK stadium?

Ugh. Another in a long line of ugly Philly fan stories. Hope at least Navy won the game.