MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:37 am
You then went all-in on Tailhook.
I only mentioned Tailhook tangentially, in reference to my support of Jim Webb. I only went "all in" in response to your question. Don't ask, if you can't tolerate a good faith answer based on first hand knowledge. Next you reprised relevant articles which I previously posted which are consistent with, & supportive of my current position.
I still stand by what Jim Webb & John McCain said about the Tailhook purge, in what I posted & elsewhere. Patsy Schroeder -- not so much. She demanded an audience before the innocent officers she smeared, could not handle their criticism, then demanded another witch hunt.
The integration & acceptance of women into Naval Aviation was already well underway & was inevitable for the tailhook comminity, as soon as women were authorized for combat duty. Tailhook aviation is extremely demanding & unforgiving. The resistance expressed in the open session was skepticism based on safety concerns about pushing women pilots into that position who did not measure up & resistance to washing them out in training, which is exactly what happened in fatal crash during the initial carrier qualification of women F-14 pilots.
I still challenge you to cite any proven specific allegations of sexual assault or rape by Naval Aviators before of after those arising from Tailhook '91.
And what would you accept as “proven?”
Are you honestly suggesting that Naval Aviators haven’t committed these crimes prior to and following the Tailhook escapade? Or, are you saying that they weren’t brought to justice?
I'm saying that the cases arising from Tailhook 91 are the only cases I've heard of accusing Naval Aviators.
Tailhook had a reputation that attracted women from all around the country to come to Vegas & party, including the frequent female guests from communities surrounding master jet bases, most notably Miramar in SD & Oceana in VaBeach. The mixers & happy hours at their o-clubs were the basis for those scenes in the movie Top Gun. Prior to '91, the brass assumed that the female party goers at Tailhook were willing participants in the 3rd deck parties & that things went too far in '91. That is what I had heard from participants, having never personally attended. We likely would have heard of any previous formal accusations, especially if reported to civil law enforcement.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:37 am
You then went all-in on Tailhook.
I only mentioned Tailhook tangentially, in reference to my support of Jim Webb. I only went "all in" in response to your question. Don't ask, if you can't tolerate a good faith answer based on first hand knowledge. Next you reprised relevant articles which I previously posted which are consistent with, & supportive of my current position.
I still stand by what Jim Webb & John McCain said about the Tailhook purge, in what I posted & elsewhere. Patsy Schroeder -- not so much. She demanded an audience before the innocent officers she smeared, could not handle their criticism, then demanded another witch hunt.
The integration & acceptance of women into Naval Aviation was already well underway & was inevitable for the tailhook comminity, as soon as women were authorized for combat duty. Tailhook aviation is extremely demanding & unforgiving. The resistance expressed in the open session was skepticism based on safety concerns about pushing women pilots into that position who did not measure up & resistance to washing them out in training, which is exactly what happened in fatal crash during the initial carrier qualification of women F-14 pilots.
I still challenge you to cite any proven specific allegations of sexual assault or rape by Naval Aviators before of after those arising from Tailhook '91.
And what would you accept as “proven?”
Are you honestly suggesting that Naval Aviators haven’t committed these crimes prior to and following the Tailhook escapade? Or, are you saying that they weren’t brought to justice?
Neither. I'm asking mdlf76 to substantiate his sweeping negative generalization of all of Naval Aviation.
While there have been numerous allegations of sexual assault & rape throughout the military, how many have accused or convicted Naval Aviators ?
I have no idea how many "Naval Aviators" have been accused of rape, do you?
Are you saying that "miscreants" don't exist among "Naval Aviators"...somehow they're immune to what has evidently been a huge problem in the rest of the military?
That said, I made no sweeping generalizations of all of Naval Aviation, quite the opposite. Individuals commit crimes, individuals cover them up. And organizations are made up of many individuals, only some of whom as you say are "miscreants".
What exists definitely as a challenge in any command chain hierarchical structure is a culture of us against them, however that's defined. A closing of ranks, a cover-up instinct, indeed demand. It takes superior leadership to overcome that challenge and rarely is that leadership going to persist forever in any such hierarchy.
You, yourself, exhibited some of this in your explanations about Tailhook and it's aftermath, a blaming the victim and rage about those who were damaged in the backwash. She shouldn't have gone there and she shouldn't have gone around her chain of command when she was frustrated...cost her the trust of her fellow officers, Cost her her career.
I'm saying that you need to provide specific allegations, other than Tailhook '91, which support your sweeping allegation against Naval Aviators, before & after.
I told you exactly what happened to the two officers I served with when it happened. Like it or lump it. That's how it played out.
Last edited by old salt on Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Friend’s daughter was in the military and was raped by another soldier. Reached a settlement that will pretty much pay her for the rest of her life. Buddy was all “anti-abortion” until she told him she was raped and impregnated by another soldier and had to have an abortion…..
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:37 am
You then went all-in on Tailhook.
I only mentioned Tailhook tangentially, in reference to my support of Jim Webb. I only went "all in" in response to your question. Don't ask, if you can't tolerate a good faith answer based on first hand knowledge. Next you reprised relevant articles which I previously posted which are consistent with, & supportive of my current position.
I still stand by what Jim Webb & John McCain said about the Tailhook purge, in what I posted & elsewhere. Patsy Schroeder -- not so much. She demanded an audience before the innocent officers she smeared, could not handle their criticism, then demanded another witch hunt.
The integration & acceptance of women into Naval Aviation was already well underway & was inevitable for the tailhook comminity, as soon as women were authorized for combat duty. Tailhook aviation is extremely demanding & unforgiving. The resistance expressed in the open session was skepticism based on safety concerns about pushing women pilots into that position who did not measure up & resistance to washing them out in training, which is exactly what happened in fatal crash during the initial carrier qualification of women F-14 pilots.
I still challenge you to cite any proven specific allegations of sexual assault or rape by Naval Aviators before of after those arising from Tailhook '91.
And what would you accept as “proven?”
Are you honestly suggesting that Naval Aviators haven’t committed these crimes prior to and following the Tailhook escapade? Or, are you saying that they weren’t brought to justice?
I'm saying that the cases arising from Tailhook 91 are the only cases I've heard of accusing Naval Aviators.
Tailhook had a reputation that attracted women from all around the country to come to Vegas & party, including the frequent female guests from communities surrounding master jet bases, most notably Miramar in SD & Oceana in VaBeach. The mixers & happy hours at their o-clubs were the basis for those scenes in the movie Top Gun. Prior to '91, the brass assumed that the female party goers at Tailhook were willing participants in the 3rd deck parties & that things went too far in '91. That is what I had heard from participants, having never personally attended. We likely would have heard of any previous formal accusations, especially if reported to civil law enforcement.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 6:51 pm
Wait a second, you are saying that rapes don't occur in the Navy? None by Naval aviators? Before or after Tailhook???
Really, never? Any other military branches?
Stop obfuscating. I said Naval Aviators. Give me specifics.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:37 am
You then went all-in on Tailhook.
I only mentioned Tailhook tangentially, in reference to my support of Jim Webb. I only went "all in" in response to your question. Don't ask, if you can't tolerate a good faith answer based on first hand knowledge. Next you reprised relevant articles which I previously posted which are consistent with, & supportive of my current position.
I still stand by what Jim Webb & John McCain said about the Tailhook purge, in what I posted & elsewhere. Patsy Schroeder -- not so much. She demanded an audience before the innocent officers she smeared, could not handle their criticism, then demanded another witch hunt.
The integration & acceptance of women into Naval Aviation was already well underway & was inevitable for the tailhook comminity, as soon as women were authorized for combat duty. Tailhook aviation is extremely demanding & unforgiving. The resistance expressed in the open session was skepticism based on safety concerns about pushing women pilots into that position who did not measure up & resistance to washing them out in training, which is exactly what happened in fatal crash during the initial carrier qualification of women F-14 pilots.
I still challenge you to cite any proven specific allegations of sexual assault or rape by Naval Aviators before of after those arising from Tailhook '91.
And what would you accept as “proven?”
Are you honestly suggesting that Naval Aviators haven’t committed these crimes prior to and following the Tailhook escapade? Or, are you saying that they weren’t brought to justice?
I'm saying that the cases arising from Tailhook 91 are the only cases I've heard of accusing Naval Aviators.
Tailhook had a reputation that attracted women from all around the country to come to Vegas & party, including the frequent female guests from communities surrounding master jet bases, most notably Miramar in SD & Oceana in VaBeach. The mixers & happy hours at their o-clubs were the basis for those scenes in the movie Top Gun. Prior to '91, the brass assumed that the female party goers at Tailhook were willing participants in the 3rd deck parties & that things went too far in '91. That is what I had heard from participants, having never personally attended. We likely would have heard of any previous formal accusations, especially if reported to civil law enforcement.
Yeah. That is rock solid.
Provide specifics to the contrary implicating or accusing Naval Aviators.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:37 am
You then went all-in on Tailhook.
I only mentioned Tailhook tangentially, in reference to my support of Jim Webb. I only went "all in" in response to your question. Don't ask, if you can't tolerate a good faith answer based on first hand knowledge. Next you reprised relevant articles which I previously posted which are consistent with, & supportive of my current position.
I still stand by what Jim Webb & John McCain said about the Tailhook purge, in what I posted & elsewhere. Patsy Schroeder -- not so much. She demanded an audience before the innocent officers she smeared, could not handle their criticism, then demanded another witch hunt.
The integration & acceptance of women into Naval Aviation was already well underway & was inevitable for the tailhook comminity, as soon as women were authorized for combat duty. Tailhook aviation is extremely demanding & unforgiving. The resistance expressed in the open session was skepticism based on safety concerns about pushing women pilots into that position who did not measure up & resistance to washing them out in training, which is exactly what happened in fatal crash during the initial carrier qualification of women F-14 pilots.
I still challenge you to cite any proven specific allegations of sexual assault or rape by Naval Aviators before of after those arising from Tailhook '91.
And what would you accept as “proven?”
Are you honestly suggesting that Naval Aviators haven’t committed these crimes prior to and following the Tailhook escapade? Or, are you saying that they weren’t brought to justice?
I'm saying that the cases arising from Tailhook 91 are the only cases I've heard of accusing Naval Aviators.
Tailhook had a reputation that attracted women from all around the country to come to Vegas & party, including the frequent female guests from communities surrounding master jet bases, most notably Miramar in SD & Oceana in VaBeach. The mixers & happy hours at their o-clubs were the basis for those scenes in the movie Top Gun. Prior to '91, the brass assumed that the female party goers at Tailhook were willing participants in the 3rd deck parties & that things went too far in '91. That is what I had heard from participants, having never personally attended. We likely would have heard of any previous formal accusations, especially if reported to civil law enforcement.
Yeah. That is rock solid.
Provide specifics to the contrary implicating or accusing Naval Aviators.
I wonder if Old Sailor has any criticism of the “vetting” process for JD…. Seems to think Dems could have done a better job with that valor fraud Walz. At least that is what he wrote.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:37 am
You then went all-in on Tailhook.
I only mentioned Tailhook tangentially, in reference to my support of Jim Webb. I only went "all in" in response to your question. Don't ask, if you can't tolerate a good faith answer based on first hand knowledge. Next you reprised relevant articles which I previously posted which are consistent with, & supportive of my current position.
I still stand by what Jim Webb & John McCain said about the Tailhook purge, in what I posted & elsewhere. Patsy Schroeder -- not so much. She demanded an audience before the innocent officers she smeared, could not handle their criticism, then demanded another witch hunt.
The integration & acceptance of women into Naval Aviation was already well underway & was inevitable for the tailhook comminity, as soon as women were authorized for combat duty. Tailhook aviation is extremely demanding & unforgiving. The resistance expressed in the open session was skepticism based on safety concerns about pushing women pilots into that position who did not measure up & resistance to washing them out in training, which is exactly what happened in fatal crash during the initial carrier qualification of women F-14 pilots.
I still challenge you to cite any proven specific allegations of sexual assault or rape by Naval Aviators before of after those arising from Tailhook '91.
And what would you accept as “proven?”
Are you honestly suggesting that Naval Aviators haven’t committed these crimes prior to and following the Tailhook escapade? Or, are you saying that they weren’t brought to justice?
I'm saying that the cases arising from Tailhook 91 are the only cases I've heard of accusing Naval Aviators.
Tailhook had a reputation that attracted women from all around the country to come to Vegas & party, including the frequent female guests from communities surrounding master jet bases, most notably Miramar in SD & Oceana in VaBeach. The mixers & happy hours at their o-clubs were the basis for those scenes in the movie Top Gun. Prior to '91, the brass assumed that the female party goers at Tailhook were willing participants in the 3rd deck parties & that things went too far in '91. That is what I had heard from participants, having never personally attended. We likely would have heard of any previous formal accusations, especially if reported to civil law enforcement.
First, I made no such allegation, whether "sweeping' or specific, I'm asking you whether you think Naval Aviators are immune from being rapists, sexual assaulters, sexual harassers, lewd actors, or covering up such "miscreant behavior"?
I don't and I'm a bit flabbergasted that you are taking such a dumb on its face position.
All of the reported analysis on this sort of problem suggests that only a small fraction of rapes and assaults, especially sexual assaults, are reported in the military. That problem exists in general society but at a higher rate, apparently, in the military. Bigger percentage of male on male than in most of society, outside of jails. Moreover, very few ever get reported out to "civil law enforcement".
You parse this response with "formal accusations" and "reported out to civil enforcement"? Did you ever hear of sexual assaults or harassment on any of the bases or ships at or on which you served. Rumors? Or did you just never take anything like that seriously?
Or is your contention that the surveys of navy folk are bogus? That Pentagon stats are bogus. Sexual assault just doesn't happen, at least not by "Naval Aviators". Hoo boy.
I don't know whether the Pentagon keeps stats on specific military roles or status of those accused of sexual assault or harassment, but they, and specifically the Navy, now do publish general numbers: https://news.usni.org/2023/04/27/annual ... ds-unclear
So, I have no idea whether Naval Aviators have a higher rate of sexual assault than those on the ground or ship, or vice versa, whether in the past or now. I'd have no basis to make such a claim. But we DO know that there was prior sexist behavior at prior Tailhooks, chalked up as "lewd behavior", and we know that this event exploded in a way only possible if the culture was accepting of it.
I have no idea what the "brass' thought was happening at Tailhooks prior to or this one, but clearly there was a ton of sexism in the Navy at the time.
Listen, in that era such things simply weren't on the radar screen for many military "brass", much less lower level officers, as a priority for creating and maintaining the most effective fighting force possible. Indeed, women demanding roles was seen as a detriment to such by most 'brass' and officers. But sexual assaults certainly preexisted women entering the force, just much higher percentage male on male or outside of service.
This wasn't just a military problem though, attitudes about women and sexual assault or harassment of any sort were different in all sorts of parts of society, but particularly wherever there was a power imbalance between employee and boss. where there was hierarchy and negative repercussions for speaking up. But restaurants earned Michelin stars and Harvey Weinstein produced a ton of great films...they were "effective"...
Fortunately, restaurants continue to be amazing and great films continue to get made...and we have the most effective fighting force in the world...
Shame on you for swift boating Walz.
Last edited by MDlaxfan76 on Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not only is he a fraud, never actually poor, and is engaging in a weirdly hyper intellectualized zero empathy conversation, he has zero recognition of the immense luxury it is to have a mother in law who herself could actually afford to come across the country to spend a large amount of time with her daughter and grandchild, neither daughter nor grandparent working to pay bills. No recognition that very few families could even imagine such an option.
Indeed, this hostility to any notion that people, especially poor and working class, desperately need to have as many people as possible working to pay the bills and yet child care is unaffordable. Heaven forbid that (Liberals, snarl) think it is morally important as well as economically efficient to actually help people with that problem.
Not only is he a fraud, never actually poor, and is engaging in a weirdly hyper intellectualized zero empathy conversation, he has zero recognition of the immense luxury it is to have a mother in law who herself could actually afford to come across the country to spend a large amount of time with her daughter and grandchild, neither daughter nor grandparent working to pay bills. No recognition that very few families could even imagine such an option.
Indeed, this hostility to any notion that people, especially poor and working class, desperately need to have as many people as possible working to pay the bills and yet child care is unaffordable. Heaven forbid that (Liberals, snarl) think it is morally important as well as economically efficient to actually help people with that problem.
Totally hilarious that they keep nominating 1%ers, telling themselves "this guy represents me", because who doesn't have Trump's gold plated toilet that they bought with money he inherited from Daddy?
Meanwhile, they hate Walz.......career National Guardsman with a teacher who is a teacher.
Makes total sense. Republican voters have it ALL figured out.
