January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

[njbill]

A few things could be in play with the Chesboro plea negotiations. One, he thinks he will get the best deal if he holds out until the last minute. Maybe. Two, he is waiting to see who is on the jury. A pretty common approach. Three, he suspects that the Fulton County DA does not want to try this case right now. Even if they are ready (maybe they are, maybe they aren’t), they certainly don’t want to lay out their entire case, or at least the portion relating to him, so as to give the other defendants a free look at the case that will be put on against them.

On the other hand, I don’t think he has quite the leverage the Kraken had. Don’t think a lot of his evidence relates to Trump while the Squid may know stuff that will send His Bloatedness down the Suwanee River for a nice little vacation.

I still think the Cheese man ends up entering into a plea deal.

3) would mean that he needs to plea before the trial actually begins. Else that benefit goes away pretty darn quickly. Assuming it's there at all, which may well be doubtful. I'd think they could focus on his piece of the crimes primarily, with enough evidence of the rest of the conspiracy presented but holding back much of the evidence, and convict him based on his particular involvement being clear cut. I wouldn't think his lawyer is well positioned to put on a case defending him from the crimes committed by others...he'll really only be able to argue that his client wasn't directly involved in those crimes, shouldn't be subject to RICO.

The question may be what he has that implicates those who can implicate Trump more directly...and, notably, every plea to a crime that is part of the conspiracy buttresses the RICO.

They have a whole lot of people as witnesses who not were indicted based on them already having admitted to criminal actions as part of the conspiracy, each of whom could have been indicted and convicted, but I think Willis is less concerned with punishing everyone than she is in building the RICO case against the prime actors.

So, she and her team are going to be open to pleas that support the overall case. But needn't take them.

Yes, my third point would be strongest for Chesboro if the plea deal were entered into before the trial started, or at least early on. Don’t know the cases against the various defendants well enough to have a firm opinion, but from press reporting, it sounds like the case against Chesboro may not overlap with the case against Trump very much. But still, there may be at least some overlap. More importantly, some of the legal theories probably closely overlap. There probably would be lots and lots of times during the trial when the Fulton Co. DA will make arguments about the legal theories to the judge. That would be useful intel to have if I were Trump’s defense lawyer. Also, it would be very useful to watch the Fulton County DA lawyers in action in a long trial. Always helpful to see how the opposing lawyers try a case.

[MDlaxfan76]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

Looks like plead down to one count from 7.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/20/trump-g ... uilty.html

[a fan]

As we know from Nixon, immunity is only for actions taken as President.
Crimes that are committed as a private citizen don't have immunity.
Candidates are acting as private citizens, not as office holders, regardless of what office they hold.

Trump's argument is that his actions were under his Presidential responsibilities. They were not. They were as a candidate who was seeking to commit crimes in order to achieve an outcome that was against the law. He'd taken lots of legal actions as a candidate to achieve his desired outcome, but they had failed...illegal actions don't get immunity.

But that's the legal argument, not that he's immune from any and all prosecution no matter what the act.

I get all that. He was still in office when this went down, is my point.

Nixon was never prosecuted....we're in uncharted waters, fellas. Ya got no precedent for any of this. Who the F knows what's heading down the pike.

They're already playing legal games with what the meaning of words are, FFS.

[njbill]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

Stay tuned for the Andy McCarthy article on how this has nothing to do with the case against Donald Trump.

[MDlaxfan76]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

well, looks like plead down to 1 count from 7...I'd be interested to know what his proffer includes, but we probably won't know much about that for awhile...did they get him recorded?

And of course, what's the punishment?
Presumably no time.

[MDlaxfan76]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

Stay tuned for the Andy McCarthy article on how this has nothing to do with the case against Donald Trump.

[MDlaxfan76]

As we know from Nixon, immunity is only for actions taken as President.
Crimes that are committed as a private citizen don't have immunity.
Candidates are acting as private citizens, not as office holders, regardless of what office they hold.

Trump's argument is that his actions were under his Presidential responsibilities. They were not. They were as a candidate who was seeking to commit crimes in order to achieve an outcome that was against the law. He'd taken lots of legal actions as a candidate to achieve his desired outcome, but they had failed...illegal actions don't get immunity.

But that's the legal argument, not that he's immune from any and all prosecution no matter what the act.

I get all that. He was still in office when this went down, is my point.

Nixon was never prosecuted....we're in uncharted waters, fellas. Ya got no precedent for any of this. Who the F knows what's heading down the pike.

They're already playing legal games with what the meaning of words are, FFS.

Of course, understood re being in office.
But immunity is limited to civil actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_v._ ... n%20office.

[Brooklyn]

Cheese takes a plea.

Sentence: light tap on the wrist.


I bet this will be the same for tRump. With that he'll run again, "win" back the White Wash House, and grant clemency to everybody, including himself.

[a fan]

As we know from Nixon, immunity is only for actions taken as President.
Crimes that are committed as a private citizen don't have immunity.
Candidates are acting as private citizens, not as office holders, regardless of what office they hold.

Trump's argument is that his actions were under his Presidential responsibilities. They were not. They were as a candidate who was seeking to commit crimes in order to achieve an outcome that was against the law. He'd taken lots of legal actions as a candidate to achieve his desired outcome, but they had failed...illegal actions don't get immunity.

But that's the legal argument, not that he's immune from any and all prosecution no matter what the act.

I get all that. He was still in office when this went down, is my point.

Nixon was never prosecuted....we're in uncharted waters, fellas. Ya got no precedent for any of this. Who the F knows what's heading down the pike.

They're already playing legal games with what the meaning of words are, FFS.

Of course, understood re being in office.
But immunity is limited to civil actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_v._ ... n%20office.

....and I'm not saying technical immunity.....I'm saying making an argument in open court.

"Oh, I was just doing my job, making sure the elections were operating fairly". That sort of thing.

Good lawyering for rich Americans have gotten a whole mess of folks out of legal peril. I see no reason to expect anything different with Trump.

[a fan]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

Stay tuned for the Andy McCarthy article on how this has nothing to do with the case against Donald Trump.

And we'll be called "blind" for not agreeing with him.

[cradleandshoot]

It is looking like all the other trump advisors are ready and willing to throw their former boss under the bus. Amongst all of this chaos trump is still the prohibitive favorite to win the Republican nomination. What is even more mind boggling...trump might even win. So 2024 is possibly looking like a 2020 rerun. Yippee!!!

I'll be stunned if the outcome of this isn't the following....

-TrumpPals get plea deals
-Trump skates on charges from technicalities surrounding the fact that he was an elected official
-Trump wins election

Not sure what you mean by the second "outcome," but you need to be mindful that Trump can only, only be understood to be a candidate for office; his official duties didn't include the rally at the Capitol, the calls to Raffensberger, and all of the other fomenting and scheming. If simply "holding office" is enough to immunize an elected official, then the power of incumbency will become even more overwhelming than it is now, and elections will become charades to maintain incumbency on a dramatically (more) tilted playing field.

yeah, I don't think even this SCOTUS would go for that.

I do think the GOP will nominate him even if he's clearly going to be convicted or even if he has been convicted by then. He'll still be in an appeal process.

But I pray the country won't elect him.

Here is a very rare occurrence, I agree with you and hope like heck he doesn't win. The fact that is even remotely possible boggles my mind. Someday some fancy Hollywood person is going to make a movie about this. They don't even need to write the story. The story is writing itself.

[Kismet]

It is looking like all the other trump advisors are ready and willing to throw their former boss under the bus. Amongst all of this chaos trump is still the prohibitive favorite to win the Republican nomination. What is even more mind boggling...trump might even win. So 2024 is possibly looking like a 2020 rerun. Yippee!!!

I'll be stunned if the outcome of this isn't the following....

-TrumpPals get plea deals
-Trump skates on charges from technicalities surrounding the fact that he was an elected official
-Trump wins election

Not sure what you mean by the second "outcome," but you need to be mindful that Trump can only, only be understood to be a candidate for office; his official duties didn't include the rally at the Capitol, the calls to Raffensberger, and all of the other fomenting and scheming. If simply "holding office" is enough to immunize an elected official, then the power of incumbency will become even more overwhelming than it is now, and elections will become charades to maintain incumbency on a dramatically (more) tilted playing field.

yeah, I don't think even this SCOTUS would go for that.

I do think the GOP will nominate him even if he's clearly going to be convicted or even if he has been convicted by then. He'll still be in an appeal process.

But I pray the country won't elect him.

Here is a very rare occurrence, I agree with you and hope like heck he doesn't win. The fact that is even remotely possible boggles my mind. Someday some fancy Hollywood person is going to make a movie about this. They don't even need to write the story. The story is writing itself.

They already made it - Nightmare on Elm Street.

[MDlaxfan76]

As we know from Nixon, immunity is only for actions taken as President.
Crimes that are committed as a private citizen don't have immunity.
Candidates are acting as private citizens, not as office holders, regardless of what office they hold.

Trump's argument is that his actions were under his Presidential responsibilities. They were not. They were as a candidate who was seeking to commit crimes in order to achieve an outcome that was against the law. He'd taken lots of legal actions as a candidate to achieve his desired outcome, but they had failed...illegal actions don't get immunity.

But that's the legal argument, not that he's immune from any and all prosecution no matter what the act.

I get all that. He was still in office when this went down, is my point.

Nixon was never prosecuted....we're in uncharted waters, fellas. Ya got no precedent for any of this. Who the F knows what's heading down the pike.

They're already playing legal games with what the meaning of words are, FFS.

Of course, understood re being in office.
But immunity is limited to civil actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_v._ ... n%20office.

....and I'm not saying technical immunity.....I'm saying making an argument in open court.

"Oh, I was just doing my job, making sure the elections were operating fairly". That sort of thing.

Good lawyering for rich Americans have gotten a whole mess of folks out of legal peril. I see no reason to expect anything different with Trump.

Certainly that's his best argument,' I was doing this in my official capacity'.

Of course, precedent does NOT recognize immunity for criminal acts in an official capacity, either. Indeed it was barely recognized for civil actions as the dissenters thought that too much. Only 5-4 granted him POTUS that amount of immunity. The dissenters thought that even that put the POTUS above the law.

But this was not in his official capacity and there's all sorts of legal precedent that separates the actions of any office holder as an office holder from their actions as a candidate.

But it's his best argument. But there are too many facts that will support that he was acting as a candidate desperate to hold onto the office, not as an office holder doing his duty under that office's requirements.

https://constitution.findlaw.com/articl ... suits.html

[Kismet]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

well, looks like plead down to 1 count from 7...I'd be interested to know what his proffer includes, but we probably won't know much about that for awhile...did they get him recorded?

And of course, what's the punishment?
Presumably no time.

Right no time but Chesebro is pleading guilty to one felony (which will likely cost him his law license) – conspiracy to commit filing false documents in the fake electors plot. Fulton County prosecutors are recommending that Chesebro serve 5 years of probation and pay $5,000 in restitution. He agreed to testify at any future trials in the sprawling election subversion case and write an apology letter. Suspect he has a proffer as well.

As in most cases, the subsequent deals usually are not as good as the initial deals.

The DA no longer has to preview its case - which is a big deal for them.

[MDlaxfan76]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

well, looks like plead down to 1 count from 7...I'd be interested to know what his proffer includes, but we probably won't know much about that for awhile...did they get him recorded?

And of course, what's the punishment?
Presumably no time.

Right no time but Chesebro is pleading guilty to one felony (which will likely cost him his law license) – conspiracy to commit filing false documents in the fake electors plot. Fulton County prosecutors are recommending that Chesebro serve 5 years of probation and pay $5,000 in restitution. He agreed to testify at any future trials in the sprawling election subversion case and write an apology letter. Suspect he has a proffer as well.

As in most cases, the subsequent deals usually are not as good as the initial deals.

The DA no longer has to preview its case - which is a big deal for them.

And another piece of the RICO conspiracy locked down.

[Seacoaster(1)]

It is looking like all the other trump advisors are ready and willing to throw their former boss under the bus. Amongst all of this chaos trump is still the prohibitive favorite to win the Republican nomination. What is even more mind boggling...trump might even win. So 2024 is possibly looking like a 2020 rerun. Yippee!!!

I'll be stunned if the outcome of this isn't the following....

-TrumpPals get plea deals
-Trump skates on charges from technicalities surrounding the fact that he was an elected official
-Trump wins election

Not sure what you mean by the second "outcome," but you need to be mindful that Trump can only, only be understood to be a candidate for office; his official duties didn't include the rally at the Capitol, the calls to Raffensberger, and all of the other fomenting and scheming.

He was President at the time, was he not?

Of course. I thought I was pretty clear about that, juxtaposing his "official duties" against the duties of a candidate. I know that the Trump Campaign, more than perhaps any campaign in my long lifetime, used the Oval and personnel -- the Press Secretary, the WH COS, etc. -- integrally in the campaign. But they cannot be one in the same.

[a fan]

It is looking like all the other trump advisors are ready and willing to throw their former boss under the bus. Amongst all of this chaos trump is still the prohibitive favorite to win the Republican nomination. What is even more mind boggling...trump might even win. So 2024 is possibly looking like a 2020 rerun. Yippee!!!

I'll be stunned if the outcome of this isn't the following....

-TrumpPals get plea deals
-Trump skates on charges from technicalities surrounding the fact that he was an elected official
-Trump wins election

Not sure what you mean by the second "outcome," but you need to be mindful that Trump can only, only be understood to be a candidate for office; his official duties didn't include the rally at the Capitol, the calls to Raffensberger, and all of the other fomenting and scheming.

He was President at the time, was he not?

Of course. I thought I was pretty clear about that, juxtaposing his "official duties" against the duties of a candidate. I know that the Trump Campaign, more than perhaps any campaign in my long lifetime, used the Oval and personnel -- the Press Secretary, the WH COS, etc. -- integrally in the campaign. But they cannot be one in the same.

We'll find out soon enough. I don't share your optimism. Everyone knows what he did, and what he was trying to do. Proving it with high paid attornies in a system designed to keep the rich out of jail is a different story.

[ggait]

Stay tuned for the Andy McCarthy article on how this has nothing to do with the case against Donald Trump.

Under/over on Salty's post quoting McCarthy on how this means the prosecutors have nothing is set at five minutes.

I'm taking the under.

[SCLaxAttack]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

well, looks like plead down to 1 count from 7...I'd be interested to know what his proffer includes, but we probably won't know much about that for awhile...did they get him recorded?

And of course, what's the punishment?
Presumably no time.

Right no time but Chesebro is pleading guilty to one felony (which will likely cost him his law license) – conspiracy to commit filing false documents in the fake electors plot. Fulton County prosecutors are recommending that Chesebro serve 5 years of probation and pay $5,000 in restitution. He agreed to testify at any future trials in the sprawling election subversion case and write an apology letter. Suspect he has a proffer as well.

As in most cases, the subsequent deals usually are not as good as the initial deals.

The DA no longer has to preview its case - which is a big deal for them.

And another piece of the RICO conspiracy locked down.

Looking for our attorneys’ opinions on MD’s last remark re: the RICO case being helped. My non-attorney thought was that the DA dropping the RICO-related charge for just a false document guilty plea could signify a chink in the armor held for a RICO case. Thoughts?

[Seacoaster(1)]

Cheese takes a plea.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics ... index.html

I guess that about wraps up this portion of this thread.

well, looks like plead down to 1 count from 7...I'd be interested to know what his proffer includes, but we probably won't know much about that for awhile...did they get him recorded?

And of course, what's the punishment?
Presumably no time.

Right no time but Chesebro is pleading guilty to one felony (which will likely cost him his law license) – conspiracy to commit filing false documents in the fake electors plot. Fulton County prosecutors are recommending that Chesebro serve 5 years of probation and pay $5,000 in restitution. He agreed to testify at any future trials in the sprawling election subversion case and write an apology letter. Suspect he has a proffer as well.

As in most cases, the subsequent deals usually are not as good as the initial deals.

The DA no longer has to preview its case - which is a big deal for them.

And another piece of the RICO conspiracy locked down.

Chesebro pleads guilty to a single felony count of conspiracy to file false documents, and accepts a sentence of three to five years on probation, a $1,000 fine, $5,000 in restitution to the state of Georgia, gives an apology letter, 100 hours of community service and a promise to testify truthfully against any other co-defendants in the case, should they go to trial.

Rudy? Mark?