LaxPower Back-Up Stick

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:40 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:07 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:57 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:44 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

Save us the spin please. I can see it now...

The butcher's bill = only X troops killed in exchange for Y evacuees.

It was inevitable & not preventable. Blame youknowwho.

Save us the spineless hypocrisy.

I was speaking of critiquing on the basis of "incompetence", and, yeah, if one wasn't willing to rip the former Admin for such, one just doesn't have any credibility now. That incompetence "scorecard" isn't remotely close...but give the Biden Admin some time, they'll have their share of screw ups as well, whether "preventable" or not, there'll be plenty to critique...but not by partisan loudmouths who were unwilling to address much worse in the Trump Admin.

See...that's the problem with flying air cover at every turn for one side or the other...blown credibility.

Right. Blame Trump. He made Biden do it. Biden is powerless. Weak. Cowardly. Gutless blame shifting.

Hypocrisy on display. At least you are consistent.

By hypocrisy on display you mean all of you and your liberal buddies blaming trump for Bidens f**k up in Afghanistan?Biden could have made his own deal any time he wanted. Biden spent the best portion of the start of his administration rolling back every thing trump did. When the chit blows up in Joe's face you all want to blame Bidens f**k up on trump. If Biden had a problem with how we were going to leave Afghanistan, he could have revised any agreement with the Taaaaalllllllllybhaaaaaaan. You libs are trying desperately to use trump for your patsy to excuse Bidens eff up. Biden already owned his eff up. That is why he will be one term Joe. His only salvation would be if mittens O Romney runs against him.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:05 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am
get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...

Good Lord......that is beyond uncalled for. You need a whistle in the sin bin pronto.

#QFP

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:00 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:54 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

Yeah…go back to a war because that worked.

You don't read so well. That was the way to conduct an orderly withdrawal without causing our Afghan allies to collapse, so they could cover our withdrawal & still have a way out themselves. Even if the Taliban took over some provinces, others would have held on, like the Kurds have in Iraq & Syria. ...where it is still working.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:13 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:05 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am
get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...

Good Lord......that is beyond uncalled for. You need a whistle in the sin bin pronto.

#QFP

go ahead and report me; I stand by my response and will take my punishment for my turn of phrase, if deserved.

I'm tired of people telling me I'm an FLP, or lib, or RINO, or as in this case to stop calling myself a Republican.
Where do folks get off?

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:00 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:54 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

Yeah…go back to a war because that worked.

You don't read so well. That was the way to conduct an orderly withdrawal without causing our Afghan allies to collapse, so they could cover our withdrawal & still have a way out themselves. Even if the Taliban took over some provinces, others would have held on, like the Kurds have in Iraq & Syria. ...where it is still working.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:19 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:13 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:05 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am
get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...

Good Lord......that is beyond uncalled for. You need a whistle in the sin bin pronto.

#QFP

go ahead and report me; I stand by my response and will take my punishment for my turn of phrase, if deserved.

I'm tired of people telling me I'm an FLP, or lib, or RINO, or as in this case to stop calling myself a Republican.
Where do folks get off?

Why does the truth hurt?

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:19 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:13 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:05 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am
get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...

Good Lord......that is beyond uncalled for. You need a whistle in the sin bin pronto.

#QFP

go ahead and report me; I stand by my response and will take my punishment for my turn of phrase, if deserved.

I'm tired of people telling me I'm an FLP, or lib, or RINO, or as in this case to stop calling myself a Republican.
Where do folks get off?

Why does the truth hurt?

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:00 pm Holding onto more than one airport, would have required more troops remain behind.

Keeping Bagram open, rather than Kabul made it more difficult for the bulk of at risk Afghans to get out through Taliban controlled territory. Longer distance from home to airfield. Bagram has / had tactical advantages, but much further trip for bulk of Afghan at risk.

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:13 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:05 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am
get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...

Good Lord......that is beyond uncalled for. You need a whistle in the sin bin pronto.

#QFP

go ahead and report me; I stand by my response and will take my punishment for my turn of phrase, if deserved.

I'm tired of people telling me I'm an FLP, or lib, or RINO, or as in this case to stop calling myself a Republican.
Where do folks get off?

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.

Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.

Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.

Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.

Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm OS your plan seems to be we bring home a lot more Afghans. The whole ASF + others at risk. The ASF isn't going to fight a rear guard action if they aren't leaving on a plane out (along with their families). I want to see how many of our Red State's step up to offer living space to the (est. 125K) refugees we are bringing home now. Your plan would seem to require space for 3-4 times that number. Your plan also clearly has the feature of intending to turn Afghanistan over to the Taliban from the get go as ASF would be leaving. Hardly how the ASF was being sold to the American people.

tech37 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:45 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.

Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.

Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.

Well thought out ideas OS. A disaster the Biden admin didn't have that sort of insight/foresight.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:45 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.

Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.

Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.

Maybe we shouldn’t have reached a bi-lateral agreement with the Taliban with very little conditions and perhaps we shouldn’t have drawn down so rapidly. Last guy wasn’t going to make it easy for the new guy. The type a guy that takes a dump in your house and then clogs up the toilet and then say it’s your fault when the bathroom floods. That’s your guy.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.

Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.

Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:49 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm OS your plan seems to be we bring home a lot more Afghans. The whole ASF + others at risk. The ASF isn't going to fight a rear guard action if they aren't leaving on a plane out (along with their families). I want to see how many of our Red State's step up to offer living space to the (est. 125K) refugees we are bringing home now. Your plan would seem to require space for 3-4 times that number. Your plan also clearly has the feature of intending to turn Afghanistan over to the Taliban from the get go as ASF would be leaving. Hardly how the ASF was being sold to the American people.

Breaking news -- we are flying out the ASF commandos who are helping us at HKIA, & their families. Many of the ADF Commandos have made their was to the Panjshir Valley to join the resistance. Had we had stayed with the ASF at Bagram & those other NATO bases & pulled more back in with us, they would have had an option other than surrender.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:54 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:45 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:39 pm

DocBarrister wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:20 pm
You think holding Bagram would have been enough to prevent the fall of Kabul? Think U.S. air cover was all the Afghan security forces needed to remain a viable fighting force?

If that were true, the Taliban wouldn’t have been gaining territory for the better part of a year.

Holding Bagram might have bought a few more days or maybe a week … nothing was going to stop the fall of Kabul except tens of thousands of American troops on the ground … which is basically what you wanted, correct?

DocBarrister

Who knows ? It would have retained Bagram as a defend-able garrison, rally point for the ASF, evac airbase & launching point for rescue
missions.

Air cover can't be used to defend close in city spaces. That's why the there's 8 Night Stalker little birds with .50 calibers on the ramp at HKIA.
They, along with the Apaches at HKIA, could sweep the perimeter & approaches to Bagram clean & slodiers on the wall would have clean shots.

Maybe Kabul would have fallen. Maybe Bagram, the Panjshir Valley, Maxie-i-Sharif, Shindand & even Herat might have held & been a refuge from the Taliban for the ASF & the Afghan govt.

Maybe we shouldn’t have reached a bi-lateral agreement with the Taliban with very little conditions and perhaps we shouldn’t have drawn down so rapidly. Last guy wasn’t going to make it easy for the new guy. The type a guy that takes a dump in your house and then clogs up the toilet and then say it’s your fault when the bathroom floods. That’s your guy.

Excuses. Excuses. Nobody forced Biden to follow through on that agreement. The Taliban failed to meet enough of the conditions that Biden could have pulled out or delayed. Biden's been Commander in Chief for 7 mos. He had 9 mos to figure this out.