Big Ten 2023

[1766]

I can see the B1G football folks wanting to look at FSU, Clemson, and Miami. But the academic folks might not be happy holding their noses. I heard a rumor they were unhappy with Nebraska.

there seems to be zero interest in the big ten in adding syracuse or duke.

Virginia and North Carolina are the two Acc schools most active on the Big Ten's radar. And have been for some time. Along with of course, Notre Dame. Georgia Tech is another potential considering their market. Uva/Unc check all the Big Ten boxes.

There is simply too big of a delta between the Big Ten/SEC and everyone else. Tens of millions per year per school. That can no longer be ignored.

[wgdsr]

7 Acc schools have been exploring getting out of their GOR agreement.

The Acc as a conference is in peril. That's some serious smoke.

if they haven't been looking at it since it became apparent teevee revenue was about to get wider (over a year ago?), that'd be malfeasance. my understanding is the gor is very likely pretty airtight.

so the question would be is what kind of $$ risk would a school want to take? because it would be very, very large. my guess, those schools are looking for some leverage on imbalanced payouts and other perks.

[jhu06]

I can see the B1G football folks wanting to look at FSU, Clemson, and Miami. But the academic folks might not be happy holding their noses. I heard a rumor they were unhappy with Nebraska.

there seems to be zero interest in the big ten in adding syracuse or duke.

Virginia and North Carolina are the two Acc schools most active on the Big Ten's radar. And have been for some time. Along with of course, Notre Dame. Georgia Tech is another potential considering their market. Uva/Unc check all the Big Ten boxes.

There is simply too big of a delta between the Big Ten/SEC and everyone else. Tens of millions per year per school. That can no longer be ignored.

Duke and Syracuse frankly fit better in the old big east with BC etc. Just wonder how much of that new big ten tv largesse filters down to olympic sports like lacrosse and what if any advantages the programs get from it.

[Laxfan23]

No one said ACC was untouchable i just said i thought the ACCTeams would win and we will have to wait and see. Yes Maryland had good games against UVA and ND but the magic of Maryland from last wore off. You can give examples of teams having good games between the conferences but you need to look at all the examples and the overall weight of the evidence. For example, Syracuse lost to Hopkins and Maryland by 2-3 points and they gave Duke all they could handle. Syracuse split with UNC which was dominated by ND (twice), uva and duke. Yet UNC beat Hopkins. I heard that in 10 of 12 ND wins, they handed their opponent their worst loss margin of the season. No disrespect to Big 10. I just believe the weight of the evidence favors the ACC. I just took exception to the statement that the BIg 10 could show that they were “clearly” the better conference…..

[1766]

I can see the B1G football folks wanting to look at FSU, Clemson, and Miami. But the academic folks might not be happy holding their noses. I heard a rumor they were unhappy with Nebraska.

there seems to be zero interest in the big ten in adding syracuse or duke.

Virginia and North Carolina are the two Acc schools most active on the Big Ten's radar. And have been for some time. Along with of course, Notre Dame. Georgia Tech is another potential considering their market. Uva/Unc check all the Big Ten boxes.

There is simply too big of a delta between the Big Ten/SEC and everyone else. Tens of millions per year per school. That can no longer be ignored.

Duke and Syracuse frankly fit better in the old big east with BC etc. Just wonder how much of that new big ten tv largesse filters down to olympic sports like lacrosse and what if any advantages the programs get from it.

Speaking from Rutgers perspective, a lot. Knowledge share of training, nutrition, new facilities and more funding across the board for things like travel and recruiting. Obviously football and to a slightly lesser extent basketball get the lion's share of the additional resources, but the Olympic sports at Rutgers are seeing tangible benefits. Tennis recently announced a new facility build, and in the not too distant future the same will be made for lacrosse and baseball. The new basketball facility doesn't get built without B1G funds, and neither does the Rodkin Center. If there is a lacrosse home better than that in the country I'd like to see it.

Though private funds/state funds have/are being invested as well, the Big Ten's media rights deals are a major facilitator.

[Farfromgeneva]

I can see the B1G football folks wanting to look at FSU, Clemson, and Miami. But the academic folks might not be happy holding their noses. I heard a rumor they were unhappy with Nebraska.

there seems to be zero interest in the big ten in adding syracuse or duke.

Virginia and North Carolina are the two Acc schools most active on the Big Ten's radar. And have been for some time. Along with of course, Notre Dame. Georgia Tech is another potential considering their market. Uva/Unc check all the Big Ten boxes.

There is simply too big of a delta between the Big Ten/SEC and everyone else. Tens of millions per year per school. That can no longer be ignored.

Duke and Syracuse frankly fit better in the old big east with BC etc. Just wonder how much of that new big ten tv largesse filters down to olympic sports like lacrosse and what if any advantages the programs get from it.

You’re responding to “throw s**t against the wall and claim victory when right ignore when wrong” stuff here. He has no idea what the BigTen thinks of GaTech but I do. UGA, despite being 45-60min away and not even really an exurb of Atlanta, owns the Atlanta market. Like P’owns it. Tech, sadly, has little value for that despite sitting in midtown atlanta football field spitting distance away from the iconic (if crappy food) Varsity.

[1766]

7 Acc schools have been exploring getting out of their GOR agreement.

The Acc as a conference is in peril. That's some serious smoke.

if they haven't been looking at it since it became apparent teevee revenue was about to get wider (over a year ago?), that'd be malfeasance. my understanding is the gor is very likely pretty airtight.

so the question would be is what kind of $$ risk would a school want to take? because it would be very, very large. my guess, those schools are looking for some leverage on imbalanced payouts and other perks.

It probably is. Unless a group of teams all leave together thus making the Acc a non entity.

The Acc pie simply isn't big enough to keep all the mouths fed. We saw this in the old Big East. When these schools start demanding bigger pieces of a smaller pie, it spells doom for everyone. The Acc's current model just isn't sustainable. It's similar to what the Big East was complete with allowing ND to park their Olympic sports in the conference but not not the crown jewel of football. Some scheduling arrangement doesn't change that fact.

I'm a Rutgers guy but I am under no illusions. Schools like UNC, Clemson, and FSU aren't going to sit idle while we are getting $70MM/yr checks cut from media rights and they are getting $40MM per year. UNC in particular has been talked a lot about behind the scenes. Jim Delany being an alum and still involved as a consultant with the Big Ten should make that obvious. As with everything things are always fluid and the West Coast being a tent pole now adds new complexity but 20 gets you to a true national conference in every area of the country. Having games on from early morning to late at night is very enticing for the conference.

Jim Delany is a visionary. He saw the opportunity and executed on it. Adding Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers was never the end game. We see that with UCLA/USC.

Adding two more West Coast schools and some combination of Uva/Unc/GT/ND isn't hard to see. That's 20, gets you a true national conference, and raises media rights to some unfathomable number.

[wgdsr]

7 Acc schools have been exploring getting out of their GOR agreement.

The Acc as a conference is in peril. That's some serious smoke.

if they haven't been looking at it since it became apparent teevee revenue was about to get wider (over a year ago?), that'd be malfeasance. my understanding is the gor is very likely pretty airtight.

so the question would be is what kind of $$ risk would a school want to take? because it would be very, very large. my guess, those schools are looking for some leverage on imbalanced payouts and other perks.

It probably is. Unless a group of teams all leave together thus making the Acc a non entity.

The Acc pie simply isn't big enough to keep all the mouths fed. We saw this in the old Big East. When these schools start demanding bigger pieces of a smaller pie, it spells doom for everyone. The Acc's current model just isn't sustainable. It's similar to what the Big East was complete with allowing ND to park their Olympic sports in the conference but not not the crown jewel of football. Some scheduling arrangement doesn't change that fact.

I'm a Rutgers guy but I am under no illusions. Schools like UNC, Clemson, and FSU aren't going to sit idle while we are getting $70MM/yr checks cut from media rights and they are getting $40MM per year. UNC in particular has been talked a lot about behind the scenes. Jim Delany being an alum and still involved as a consultant with the Big Ten should make that obvious. As with everything things are always fluid and the West Coast being a tent pole now adds new complexity but 20 gets you to a true national conference in every area of the country. Having games on from early morning to late at night is very enticing for the conference.

Jim Delany is a visionary. He saw the opportunity and executed on it. Adding Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers was never the end game. We see that with UCLA/USC.

Adding two more West Coast schools and some combination of Uva/Unc/GT/ND isn't hard to see. That's 20, gets you a true national conference, and raises media rights to some unfathomable number.

that's all cool, but uva/unc not biting the 1st time around, then gor being put in place (until 2036) puts the number at mid-9 figures. minimum. the delta on revenue.

and from my understanding, there actually likely isn't some "group of schools all leave together" deal available. i'm with frank the tank on this one:
https://frankthetank.org/2022/07/22/dis ... agreement/

assuming the acc lawyers can copy and paste, that is. if so, the question would be how much $$ risk are you willing to bite off and chew?

[1766]

The media rights deals at that point were speculation. Now it's tangible. That's changing the thinking. Getting USC/UCLA was a wake up call.

This also isn't taking account of Clemson and FSU. They aren't going to see their football programs toil away if they can help it. The game has changed significantly since the last round of musical chairs.

[wgdsr]

The media rights deals at that point were speculation. Now it's tangible. That's changing the thinking. Getting USC/UCLA was a wake up call.

This also isn't taking account of Clemson and FSU. They aren't going to see their football programs toil away if they can help it. The game has changed significantly since the last round of musical chairs.

the gor is short for grant of rights. which is... granting rights for all of your home football tv $$ (the majority of revenue) until the end of term. 2036. plus a nine figure exit fee. estimate $400+ mill if you buy it out cheap, +/- 50% more if you don't.

unless your lawyers are better than their lawyers, that is the deal. clemson/fsu would've been shopping themselves and been sold if this was as simple as talking about visions and new paradigms. honestly, the fsu guy sounds desperate. have the terps and rutty even paid off their loans yet 8 years later? they were chicken feed.

then there's... these 2 cash generating machines looking around, seeing what a cluster this may be to take on new weight and comping it vs. the upside. if any. it's not altogether clear they'd be up for it rather than just count checks.

[coda]

The media rights deals at that point were speculation. Now it's tangible. That's changing the thinking. Getting USC/UCLA was a wake up call.

This also isn't taking account of Clemson and FSU. They aren't going to see their football programs toil away if they can help it. The game has changed significantly since the last round of musical chairs.

The money is certainly significant enough to make a move. ESPN TV deal is also a stipulation of the GOR. That said the major players at the table will include FOX and ESPN, just like the exit negotiations for OU and Texas. ESPN has a pretty cheap deal with the ACC, but its clear they have thrown their chips all in on the SEC. I would not be surprised if ESPN used their influence to try and obtain their preferred choices for the SEC.

[1766]

The media rights deals at that point were speculation. Now it's tangible. That's changing the thinking. Getting USC/UCLA was a wake up call.

This also isn't taking account of Clemson and FSU. They aren't going to see their football programs toil away if they can help it. The game has changed significantly since the last round of musical chairs.

the gor is short for grant of rights. which is... granting rights for all of your home football tv $$ (the majority of revenue) until the end of term. 2036. plus a nine figure exit fee. estimate $400+ mill if you buy it out cheap, +/- 50% more if you don't.

unless your lawyers are better than their lawyers, that is the deal. clemson/fsu would've been shopping themselves and been sold if this was as simple as talking about visions and new paradigms. honestly, the fsu guy sounds desperate. have the terps and rutty even paid off their loans yet 8 years later? they were chicken feed.

then there's... these 2 cash generating machines looking around, seeing what a cluster this may be to take on new weight and comping it vs. the upside. if any. it's not altogether clear they'd be up for it rather than just count checks.

GOR contracts are negotiation points, as Oklahoma and Texas have proven with their exits. Again, we saw this all play out in the old Big East days. The more certain schools try to hold other school's feet to the fire, the more resentment builds creating an even faster ending.

It's simple economics. The Big Ten and the SEC have set themselves far a part from the rest of the punters. And that's only going to grow larger. A few million, sure, not maybe that's not worth the effort. $30MM-$40MM per year? That's a game changer. The Acc's biggest hope is creating a bigger pie, but that is highly unlikely to happen. Cutting up pieces of the smaller pie isn't sustainable to conference health. History tells us that.

The B1G is most certainly up for it, as is the SEC. That's very obvious at this point.

[1766]

n/m

[coda]

No matter what happens the Big 10 is in the best situation for lacrosse. The 2 strongest conferences are the Big 10 and the SEC. Only 1 of those has a lacrosse conference. Most likely thing I could see is ND eventually deciding to finally give in and look to join the Big 10. Perhaps Virginia ends up in the Big 10 and all of sudden, the Big 10 is the most feared lax conference. it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[1766]

No matter what happens the Big 10 is in the best situation for lacrosse. The 2 strongest conferences are the Big 10 and the SEC. Only 1 of those has a lacrosse conference. Most likely thing I could see is ND eventually deciding to finally give in and look to join the Big 10. Perhaps Virginia ends up in the Big 10 and all of sudden, the Big 10 is the most feared lax conference. it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

If say, Uva and North Carolina go to the Big Ten, there won't be an Acc lacrosse. They already aren't an AQ conference so the reality is it's just 5 schools with a scheduling agreement who play other sports in the same conference. Without 6 teams the NCAA doesn't recognize you. Lose two more and there isn't much left at that point. Not from a conference standpoint anyway.

[wgdsr]

The media rights deals at that point were speculation. Now it's tangible. That's changing the thinking. Getting USC/UCLA was a wake up call.

This also isn't taking account of Clemson and FSU. They aren't going to see their football programs toil away if they can help it. The game has changed significantly since the last round of musical chairs.

the gor is short for grant of rights. which is... granting rights for all of your home football tv $$ (the majority of revenue) until the end of term. 2036. plus a nine figure exit fee. estimate $400+ mill if you buy it out cheap, +/- 50% more if you don't.

unless your lawyers are better than their lawyers, that is the deal. clemson/fsu would've been shopping themselves and been sold if this was as simple as talking about visions and new paradigms. honestly, the fsu guy sounds desperate. have the terps and rutty even paid off their loans yet 8 years later? they were chicken feed.

then there's... these 2 cash generating machines looking around, seeing what a cluster this may be to take on new weight and comping it vs. the upside. if any. it's not altogether clear they'd be up for it rather than just count checks.

GOR contracts are negotiation points, as Oklahoma and Texas have proven with their exits. Again, we saw this all play out in the old Big East days. The more certain schools try to hold other school's feet to the fire, the more resentment builds creating an even faster ending.

It's simple economics. The Big Ten and the SEC have set themselves far a part from the rest of the punters. And that's only going to grow larger. A few million, sure, not maybe that's not worth the effort. $30MM-$40MM per year? That's a game changer. The Acc's biggest hope is creating a bigger pie, but that is highly unlikely to happen. Cutting up pieces of the smaller pie isn't sustainable to conference health. History tells us that.

The B1G is most certainly up for it, as is the SEC. That's very obvious at this point.

yes, it's economics. do you forfeit $400 million or probably more (and take on debt in lieu of) so you can bank more money a decade plus down the road? a game of chicken if you want to play that game, and i don't believe many (if any) schools are gonna want to play it with that much meat on the bone.

texas and okla are taking an approx $20 million hit for one year. a 13 year deal that is flat or more possibly negative isn't all that enticing.

neither the b1g nor the sec has pried anyone with a very long gor. so we have no idea if they're up for it.

[coda]

No matter what happens the Big 10 is in the best situation for lacrosse. The 2 strongest conferences are the Big 10 and the SEC. Only 1 of those has a lacrosse conference. Most likely thing I could see is ND eventually deciding to finally give in and look to join the Big 10. Perhaps Virginia ends up in the Big 10 and all of sudden, the Big 10 is the most feared lax conference. it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

If say, Uva and North Carolina go to the Big Ten, there won't be an Acc lacrosse. They already aren't an AQ conference so the reality is it's just 5 schools with a scheduling agreement who play other sports in the same conference. Without 6 teams the NCAA doesn't recognize you. Lose two more and there isn't much left at that point. Not from a conference standpoint anyway.

That is was the point. The best thing would be if the SEC took up the sport and a couple teams started programs, but that is a pipe dream. One that would be great for lacrosse, but a pipe dream. I can’t imagine ESPN letting UNC go north without one hell of a fight

[Chousnake]

College football is ruining other college sports. It's really a shame.

[1766]

The media rights deals at that point were speculation. Now it's tangible. That's changing the thinking. Getting USC/UCLA was a wake up call.

This also isn't taking account of Clemson and FSU. They aren't going to see their football programs toil away if they can help it. The game has changed significantly since the last round of musical chairs.

the gor is short for grant of rights. which is... granting rights for all of your home football tv $$ (the majority of revenue) until the end of term. 2036. plus a nine figure exit fee. estimate $400+ mill if you buy it out cheap, +/- 50% more if you don't.

unless your lawyers are better than their lawyers, that is the deal. clemson/fsu would've been shopping themselves and been sold if this was as simple as talking about visions and new paradigms. honestly, the fsu guy sounds desperate. have the terps and rutty even paid off their loans yet 8 years later? they were chicken feed.

then there's... these 2 cash generating machines looking around, seeing what a cluster this may be to take on new weight and comping it vs. the upside. if any. it's not altogether clear they'd be up for it rather than just count checks.

GOR contracts are negotiation points, as Oklahoma and Texas have proven with their exits. Again, we saw this all play out in the old Big East days. The more certain schools try to hold other school's feet to the fire, the more resentment builds creating an even faster ending.

It's simple economics. The Big Ten and the SEC have set themselves far a part from the rest of the punters. And that's only going to grow larger. A few million, sure, not maybe that's not worth the effort. $30MM-$40MM per year? That's a game changer. The Acc's biggest hope is creating a bigger pie, but that is highly unlikely to happen. Cutting up pieces of the smaller pie isn't sustainable to conference health. History tells us that.

The B1G is most certainly up for it, as is the SEC. That's very obvious at this point.

yes, it's economics. do you forfeit $400 million or probably more (and take on debt in lieu of) so you can bank more money a decade plus down the road? a game of chicken if you want to play that game, and i don't believe many (if any) schools are gonna want to play it with that much meat on the bone.

texas and okla are taking an approx $20 million hit for one year. a 13 year deal that is flat or more possibly negative isn't all that enticing.

neither the b1g nor the sec has pried anyone with a very long gor. so we have no idea if they're up for it.

We will have to see how that shakes out. If schools want out of a conference because another conference wants them, we are going to see how those grant of rights deals hold up. Going to be a boon for some lawyers that's for sure.

I would disagree with your comment about it being malfeasance if they weren't looking into breaking the GOR agreement. The reason they are looking into is they may want to get out. It's 7 schools. The 7 schools that would likely have options. Schools like Syracuse and Wake Forest aren't considering options because they have no where possible to go.

You wouldn't need a GOR in the first place if the conference was on solid footing. It was a reactionary move to the last round of acquisitions the Big Ten and SEC made.

We will see if they get held up in court at some point.

[DocBarrister]

At least 7 ACC schools are looking for a way out of the GOR. The major ACC football schools are also looking for a bigger share of ACC revenue.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-footb ... r-reports/

The clock is ticking on both the GOR and the revenue deal with ESPN. I doubt either will stand. I suspect both will be renegotiated with the ACC football powers coming out on top.

DocBarrister