LaxPower Back-Up Stick

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

Save us the spin please. I can see it now...

The butcher's bill = only X troops killed in exchange for Y evacuees.

It was inevitable & not preventable. Blame youknowwho.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:44 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

Save us the spin please. I can see it now...

The butcher's bill = only X troops killed in exchange for Y evacuees.

It was inevitable & not preventable. Blame youknowwho.

Save us the spineless hypocrisy.

I was speaking of critiquing on the basis of "incompetence", and, yeah, if one wasn't willing to rip the former Admin for such, one just doesn't have any credibility now. That incompetence "scorecard" isn't remotely close...but give the Biden Admin some time, they'll have their share of screw ups as well, whether "preventable" or not, there'll be plenty to critique...but not by partisan loudmouths who were unwilling to address much worse in the Trump Admin.

See...that's the problem with flying air cover at every turn for one side or the other...blown credibility.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:44 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

Save us the spin please. I can see it now...

The butcher's bill = only X troops killed in exchange for Y evacuees.

It was inevitable & not preventable. Blame youknowwho.

Save us the spineless hypocrisy.

I was speaking of critiquing on the basis of "incompetence", and, yeah, if one wasn't willing to rip the former Admin for such, one just doesn't have any credibility now. That incompetence "scorecard" isn't remotely close...but give the Biden Admin some time, they'll have their share of screw ups as well, whether "preventable" or not, there'll be plenty to critique...but not by partisan loudmouths who were unwilling to address much worse in the Trump Admin.

See...that's the problem with flying air cover at every turn for one side or the other...blown credibility.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:27 am I thought, based on the number of times I have been told by board Trumpnista, that ISIS had been totally defeated by the Donald. Was assured the real danger was the folks in Syria, Iraq, (the Caliphate), not allied organizations that scattered around the world after we started pushing them out of their "caliphate". ISIS-K thinks the Taliban are too moderate.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am

get it to x wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:04 am

get it to x wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:52 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:47 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:37 am

Kikin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:40 am The news article is a typical liberal partisan hit piece. The Business Insider is published by a German publishing house and Jeff Bezos holds shares in this publication (what does that tell you?). On the board of directors... Huffington Post co -founder Ken Lerer and Julie Hansen, formerly of CBS. If you can get any more left leaning then that, well, I wouldn't know how unless you actually worked for the democratic party (but hey is there really any difference?). Bottom line is most Americans agreed with getting out of Afghanistan, how you get out is the most important part. This administration has repeatedly shown its complete incompetence (open border anyone, how about alittle fentanyl with your coffee, maybe out on the deck with your MS-13 neighbors?) and this withdraw was executed in a haphazard manner and against almost all the usual protocol for engagement and military withdraw.

Naturally, the left wing media is trying to give this administration cover. How about we start being Americans first? God bless those marines and corpman killed yesterday and God bless those we leave behind. As for this administration, Forgive them father, they know not what they do (at least I hope this is ignorance and not intent).

+1 Kikin... jhu72 has a talent for digging up slanted/misleading articles on a range of topics

Just an observation....It would appear that you are often engaged in similar activity just with a different set of slanted/misleading articles. Call it the pot meet kettle syndrome for lack of a better term.

What I find most disheartening that on a day that we lost 12 Marines and a Navy corpsman, that the focus appears to be on the usual BS politics and arguing over stuff that doesn't appear to be so important right now. Kikin was there before the end of his post and IMHO that's the correct sentiment without the rant in the preceding paragraph

Fine. Find some articles I've posted that are slanted or misleading? I'm all ears.

Now, that is worth a chuckle...so much disinformation, how could we choose?

IMO, it's all fine and well to Monday morning quarterback Biden and his Admin...either way before a tragedy or well afterward, with some perspective gained. But not in the midst of actual lives lost to terrorists. Pretty darn unseemly.

And if one insists on critiquing in real time, please spare us the the hypocritical sanctimonious BS about how "incompetent" this Admin is if you weren't willing to rip the prior Admin for its replete incompetences.

Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

But right now, I'm rooting for this Admin and its allies to be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K.

Domestic politics can wait.

First of all, stop identifying as a Republican. Second, nobody is rooting for terror. Third, we don’t need some new committees or investigations. We can see what happened with our very own eyes. Blame Trump if you want, but he would have at least got the sequencing correct.

1 Evac citizens
2 Evac vetted Afghans who aided our mission (misguided adventure)
3 Remove military hardware if practical
4 Destroy remaining hardware
5 Find new home for prisoners/jihadis
6 Evac Troops
7 Carpet bomb Bagram AFB

I still think they should have left a residual force, especially close air support. Removing air cover emboldened Taliban and undermined the Afghan army.

.... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:57 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:44 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

Save us the spin please. I can see it now...

The butcher's bill = only X troops killed in exchange for Y evacuees.

It was inevitable & not preventable. Blame youknowwho.

Save us the spineless hypocrisy.

I was speaking of critiquing on the basis of "incompetence", and, yeah, if one wasn't willing to rip the former Admin for such, one just doesn't have any credibility now. That incompetence "scorecard" isn't remotely close...but give the Biden Admin some time, they'll have their share of screw ups as well, whether "preventable" or not, there'll be plenty to critique...but not by partisan loudmouths who were unwilling to address much worse in the Trump Admin.

See...that's the problem with flying air cover at every turn for one side or the other...blown credibility.

Right. Blame Trump. He made Biden do it. Biden is powerless. Weak. Cowardly. Gutless blame shifting.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:01 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:27 am I thought, based on the number of times I have been told by board Trumpnista, that ISIS had been totally defeated by the Donald. Was assured the real danger was the folks in Syria, Iraq, (the Caliphate), not allied organizations that scattered around the world after we started pushing them out of their "caliphate". ISIS-K thinks the Taliban are too moderate.

They were defeated. A few escaped to the Pakistan-Afghan border region. We gave them a free shot at us. We came to them.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:07 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:57 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:44 am

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:15 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

Save us the spin please. I can see it now...

The butcher's bill = only X troops killed in exchange for Y evacuees.

It was inevitable & not preventable. Blame youknowwho.

Save us the spineless hypocrisy.

I was speaking of critiquing on the basis of "incompetence", and, yeah, if one wasn't willing to rip the former Admin for such, one just doesn't have any credibility now. That incompetence "scorecard" isn't remotely close...but give the Biden Admin some time, they'll have their share of screw ups as well, whether "preventable" or not, there'll be plenty to critique...but not by partisan loudmouths who were unwilling to address much worse in the Trump Admin.

See...that's the problem with flying air cover at every turn for one side or the other...blown credibility.

Right. Blame Trump. He made Biden do it. Biden is powerless. Weak. Cowardly. Gutless blame shifting.

Hypocrisy on display. At least you are consistent.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am

get it to x wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:04 am

get it to x wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:51 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:52 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:47 am

tech37 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:37 am

Kikin wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:40 am The news article is a typical liberal partisan hit piece. The Business Insider is published by a German publishing house and Jeff Bezos holds shares in this publication (what does that tell you?). On the board of directors... Huffington Post co -founder Ken Lerer and Julie Hansen, formerly of CBS. If you can get any more left leaning then that, well, I wouldn't know how unless you actually worked for the democratic party (but hey is there really any difference?). Bottom line is most Americans agreed with getting out of Afghanistan, how you get out is the most important part. This administration has repeatedly shown its complete incompetence (open border anyone, how about alittle fentanyl with your coffee, maybe out on the deck with your MS-13 neighbors?) and this withdraw was executed in a haphazard manner and against almost all the usual protocol for engagement and military withdraw.

Naturally, the left wing media is trying to give this administration cover. How about we start being Americans first? God bless those marines and corpman killed yesterday and God bless those we leave behind. As for this administration, Forgive them father, they know not what they do (at least I hope this is ignorance and not intent).

+1 Kikin... jhu72 has a talent for digging up slanted/misleading articles on a range of topics

Just an observation....It would appear that you are often engaged in similar activity just with a different set of slanted/misleading articles. Call it the pot meet kettle syndrome for lack of a better term.

What I find most disheartening that on a day that we lost 12 Marines and a Navy corpsman, that the focus appears to be on the usual BS politics and arguing over stuff that doesn't appear to be so important right now. Kikin was there before the end of his post and IMHO that's the correct sentiment without the rant in the preceding paragraph

Fine. Find some articles I've posted that are slanted or misleading? I'm all ears.

Now, that is worth a chuckle...so much disinformation, how could we choose?

IMO, it's all fine and well to Monday morning quarterback Biden and his Admin...either way before a tragedy or well afterward, with some perspective gained. But not in the midst of actual lives lost to terrorists. Pretty darn unseemly.

And if one insists on critiquing in real time, please spare us the the hypocritical sanctimonious BS about how "incompetent" this Admin is if you weren't willing to rip the prior Admin for its replete incompetences.

Wanna do a scorecard? Fine
(not right now after this bombing, but later?) fine.

It ain't gonna be close.
And that's coming from a Republican.

But right now, I'm rooting for this Admin and its allies to be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K.

Domestic politics can wait.

First of all, stop identifying as a Republican. Second, nobody is rooting for terror. Third, we don’t need some new committees or investigations. We can see what happened with our very own eyes. Blame Trump if you want, but he would have at least got the sequencing correct.

1 Evac citizens
2 Evac vetted Afghans who aided our mission (misguided adventure)
3 Remove military hardware if practical
4 Destroy remaining hardware
5 Find new home for prisoners/jihadis
6 Evac Troops
7 Carpet bomb Bagram AFB

I still think they should have left a residual force, especially close air support. Removing air cover emboldened Taliban and undermined the Afghan army.

.... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with their own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:54 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

Yeah…go back to a war because that worked.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:00 pm

Typical Lax Dad wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:54 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

Yeah…go back to a war because that worked.

You don't read so well. That was the way to conduct an orderly withdrawal without causing our Afghan allies to collapse, so they could cover our withdrawal & still have a way out themselves. Even if the Taliban took over some provinces, others would have held on, like the Kurds have in Iraq & Syria. ...where it is still working.

old salt wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:47 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:06 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:41 am .... sorry, but this would not work. Step one alerts and step two confirms that the US is leaving and that it has NO CONFIDENCE in the ASF and the Afghan administration! The ASF stops pretending they are defending the country, the Afghan administration bolts. Taliban begins moving through the country just as they did with the plan executed over the past weeks. You are in the same position, except now you have more military assets laying around to be swept up. The US troops in country could not have stopped the Taliban advance without bringing in significantly more troops, which is exactly why we are leaving now, before we had to increase the ante.

Biden made one big mistake from which all else flows. Believing the ASF was ever going to defend "their country" without US forces on the ground. He was not alone in this decision, it is his responsibility, but the military played their roll in this decision. Sh*t, they have been selling the "how great these guys are doing myth" since forever. No one, Biden or the military believed it would fall so quickly. The CIA believed with the scenario being executed, we had until mid September (according to Richard Engel) before we reached this point. Everyone else believed it would take the Taliban longer.

You could not just leave air support in country. The Taliban had made it clear and they had clearly grown in size in preparation that they were going to make a push this "fighting season". Expecting the ASF to successfully defend that air support is unbelievable.

72, that's how I read it too. Could have and should have done it differently, but they really did believe, CIA, military, etc that the ASF would hold longer. Not everyone agreed, but that was the general consensus. Wrong. A lot of things wrong leading up to that mistake, predominantly made by prior Admins, in most cases I believe with thei own best intentions and beliefs, but wrong nevertheless. I'm less sanguine about Trump's specific errors leading up to this, making it really untenable to stay without enormous increased cost, and setting up a messy exit, but the general decision to leave may have been an inevitability, much as we hoped things might improve...but they went the other way hard once Trump made the unilateral deal with date certain and not holding the Taliban to any aspect of their side of the agreement...a mess.

get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...I'll identify as a Republican for as long as I want, I've voted in 11 national elections, 8 times for the GOP, 2 times third party (80 and 16) and only in this last election did I crossover to vote against Trump in specific. I've voted in every midterm, reliably GOP, including for GOP candidates for Governor, Senator, Rep, County Executive, whatever...only in the most extreme circumstances, either knowing the candidate personally or disgusted about something the other candidate said or did, have I voted D.

Second, I never suggested you or anyone else were rooting for terror...where the heck did you get that? Guilty conscience? Hadn't occurred to me. I said I was "rooting for this Admin and our alliesto be as successful and safe as possible in executing this withdrawal, and I'm going save my anger for ISIS-K." Are you not doing so too???

Last, Trump wanted to leave by Christmas last year, wanted to say so for the elections..."sequencing", he wouldn't have understood even the word! He had no planning at all in place to execute. The only way the "sequencing" would have been better under Trump would have been if the "Generals", that he knew so much better than, had totally ignored him and done it differently than many of those same generals did it under Biden. What are the chances of that happening? Slim to none.

The order of base closures made ALL the difference in undermining the solidarity of the ASF & blindsiding our NATO allies. Hold, until last, the 5 defend-able big runway airfields with adjacent NATO military camps -- Bagram & HKIA (US & Brits), Mazir-i-Shaif (Germans), Herat/Shindad (Italians). As we NATO forces fall back onto those bases, pull our ASF allies back in with us. Don't turn over the bases to the ASF until the day we fly out, ...& don't fly out if the Taliban are endangering the base -- call in the gunships or air strikes.. Our military planners were forced to choose between Bagram or HKIA, rather than use both, because they couldn't plan to being in more troops, for the short term, to cover our retreat & withdrawal. Well - we ended up having to bring them back anyway, just to defend HKIA.

It's painfully obvious that the success of this plan was contingent upon the Afghan govt & ASF holding until we were out. It left no contingency for their collapse. In extremis, it has been shown how quickly the SIV list could be compiled. That could have been started as soon as Biden decided he was going to follow through on total withdrawal, even before it was announced. The potential evacuees could have been advised to get their documents in order, have a go-plan, keep their cell ph on & to be ready, just in case the GO signal comes. It is remarkable the way we are communicating with the evacuees, either by the State Dept or NGOs. Just imagine how it could have been done on advance. It wasn't necessary to process the requests in advance, just get the recall list, as a contingency.

Then, if & where the govt & ASF collapse, hold the regional airfields, help the evacuees get there (by helo, if necessary), launch pick up missions if necessary & fly them out from those regional airfields. When we abandoned the air bases we gave up our ability to move & confined ourselves to a small city center, surrounded by Haqqani Tailban. Unbelievable.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:04 am
get it to X, well, first f-you and your mother...