Page 24 of 294

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:46 am
by jhu72
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:23 am Couple EXCELLENT posts, thanks MD and SC...

These posts lay it out pretty clearly youthathletics. "Normal" republicans are a dying breed...hounded into retirement and/or irrelevance (unelectable?) by MAGA Nation, the voters from which seem to dominate republican primaries. Will be interesting to see what may happen to Cheney in Maraschino cherry red Wyoming.

Does any of this strike a bell with you?

..
... in my opinion Cheney and the various other anti-Trump republicans in the House are the canaries in the mine shaft. Their futures will tell us just how far out of their minds the republican base really is.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:45 pm
by cradleandshoot
dislaxxic Hi wrote:Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:55 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:29 amCome to think of it, that is one way to thin the ranks of the liberal heard. :) My bad Doc.. fire at Will...and every other FLP in your line of sight. :lol:
The "liberal heard"? ...you mean the conservative teard... ;)

..
It's liberals that struggle with guns.
FTR would that not be conservative turds? ;)

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:14 pm
by ToastDunk
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:10 am
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am
General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican winning the POTUS again?

EDIT: winning not willing
But did Trump win the election? Serious question. (Hint: There is only one true and correct answer)
Of course not, which is why I am posing the question.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:54 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am
General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?
A "Republican"???
presumably you mistyped and meant winning the White House?

What's scary is that most of the GOP has become a full on fascist/authoritarian party. Willing to embrace any measure to obtain and hold power.

And they may well succeed.
Yes, Republican....my point exactly, the focus appears to be all on Trump(ist). Again, exactly each side is fighting for 'power' using different tactics to splinter each of us.

So again, what are so many here afraid will happen if a republican wins POTUS again? What do you think will happen to our country?
To answer Youth's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:16 pm
by cradleandshoot
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:54 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:29 am
SCLaxAttack wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:16 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:10 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:39 am
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:58 am

..
I don't know why, but I still find this -- and its later denial -- to be astonishing. That's who they wanted as President? That's who they want as Speaker of the House? Those are the folks from whom millions take their marching orders?
Yep.
I’d use scary rather than astonishing.
Yes, you're right there, SCLaxAttack. I was counting up the lawyers -- Graham, Cruz, Hawley, Jordan, probably another or two -- who absolutely understand that what they were doing and what they did is just dead wrong.
General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?
A "Republican"???
presumably you mistyped and meant winning the White House?

What's scary is that most of the GOP has become a full on fascist/authoritarian party. Willing to embrace any measure to obtain and hold power.

And they may well succeed.
The obvious question MD. Why are you still a Republican? You have been reaming your party a new excrement hole on this forum for as long as I can remember. At what point in time do you cut bait? You have come across as some sort of a Democrat IMO for a long time. It seems like you and the republican party have irreconcilable differences. If you think you can persuade Republicans over to your way of thinking you are peeing in the face of hurricane winds. I think even Mittens has finally figured that sad fact out.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm
by seacoaster
Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:24 pm
by cradleandshoot
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:14 pm
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:10 am
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am
General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican winning the POTUS again?

EDIT: winning not willing
But did Trump win the election? Serious question. (Hint: There is only one true and correct answer)
Of course not, which is why I am posing the question.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:54 am
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am
General question to all.....What is it that is scary or frightening, what are you thinking will happen as a result of a republican willing the POTUS again?
A "Republican"???
presumably you mistyped and meant winning the White House?

What's scary is that most of the GOP has become a full on fascist/authoritarian party. Willing to embrace any measure to obtain and hold power.

And they may well succeed.
Yes, Republican....my point exactly, the focus appears to be all on Trump(ist). Again, exactly each side is fighting for 'power' using different tactics to splinter each of us.

So again, what are so many here afraid will happen if a republican wins POTUS again? What do you think will happen to our country?
To answer Youth's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.
The moderate mittens wing of the Republican party is trying to tread water with cinder blocks attached to their feet. The sad reality is that moderate mittens Republicans have 74 million Republicans to persuade. Their message is falling on 74 million deaf ears. They have no clue how to find common ground with those folks

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
by cradleandshoot
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
by seacoaster
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.
Paraphrasing what Warren Rudman once said, you have a constitutional right to be wrong. And you seem to exercise it a lot.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
by youthathletics
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:46 am
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:45 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:09 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:50 am I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.
Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.
Yes, well put! Hard to dispute the facts as MDlax has rolled them out here (although many would). And I agree that the past four years has lead us to uncertain, and yes, frightening times.

To answer YA's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.
... in my opinion Cheney and the various other anti-Trump republicans in the House are the canaries in the mine shaft. Their futures will tell us just how far out of their minds the republican base really is.
I took the liberty of adding jhu's comment in to this thread, hope that is okay with everyone.

Really appreciate the dialogue felllas. Seems that it all started w/Trump as the pivot point, THEN, he dragged the rest of (for the most part)the party through the gutter with him leaving them with few choices as their POTUS. It puts anyone not for the ideals of the Democratic Party and to their left as a Trumpist...which is wrong and the reason for 90% of the back and forth around here. I can be a non-trump supporter and still be a conservative. Someone like me, who wanted and voted for Kasich and is pushing for Hogan...both are what the R party needs, thrown in Cheney as JHU mentioned, and there is solid starting point.

Again, appreciate the back and forth.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:37 pm
by dislaxxic
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.
Paraphrasing what Warren Rudman once said, you have a constitutional right to be wrong. And you seem to exercise it a lot.
You can tell when cradle is starting to see the wisdom our our arguments when he starts in with the "both parties" stuff... :lol:

..

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:40 pm
by cradleandshoot
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.
Paraphrasing what Warren Rudman once said, you have a constitutional right to be wrong. And you seem to exercise it a lot.
Looks like we are rowing in the same boat. Being right or wrong is a matter of opinion. We both know that opinions are like bung holes. Everybody has one and everybody thinks the other person's stinks.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:42 pm
by seacoaster
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:46 am
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:45 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:09 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:50 am I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.
Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.
Yes, well put! Hard to dispute the facts as MDlax has rolled them out here (although many would). And I agree that the past four years has lead us to uncertain, and yes, frightening times.

To answer YA's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.
... in my opinion Cheney and the various other anti-Trump republicans in the House are the canaries in the mine shaft. Their futures will tell us just how far out of their minds the republican base really is.
I took the liberty of adding jhu's comment in to this thread, hope that is okay with everyone.

Really appreciate the dialogue felllas. Seems that it all started w/Trump as the pivot point, THEN, he dragged the rest of (for the most part)the party through the gutter with him leaving them with few choices as their POTUS. It puts anyone not for the ideals of the Democratic Party and to their left as a Trumpist...which is wrong and the reason for 90% of the back and forth around here. I can be a non-trump supporter and still be a conservative. Someone like me, who wanted and voted for Kasich and is pushing for Hogan...both are what the R party needs, thrown in Cheney as JHU mentioned, and there is solid starting point.

Again, appreciate the back and forth.
Appreciation right back 'atcha YA. I think the burden is on people of good will, who are "not for the ideals of the Democratic Party and to their left" to work really hard to wrest the party away from Trump and the Toady Band of Big Liars. Not sure how you go about it, and not sure if you can succeed, but I earnestly wish you godspeed. In a two party system, one cannot be insane.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:44 pm
by cradleandshoot
dislaxxic wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:37 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.
Paraphrasing what Warren Rudman once said, you have a constitutional right to be wrong. And you seem to exercise it a lot.
You can tell when cradle is starting to see the wisdom our our arguments when he starts in with the "both parties" stuff... :lol:

..
Wrongo Hobbes. It will be a cold day in hell before any wisdom in your argument will ever be discovered. Don't let that fact stop you from wandering around aimlessly in pursuit of what does not exist.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:57 pm
by jhu72
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
BAT SH*T CRAZY doesn't even begin to cover it. Is the republican / Trumpnista base really this stupid??

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:04 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:57 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
BAT SH*T CRAZY doesn't even begin to cover it. Is the republican / Trumpnista base really this stupid??
The fever is strong….I would love someone to sit down with their 12 year old and tell them this happened with a straight face and then do the same in front of a mirror.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:06 pm
by jhu72
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:46 am
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:45 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:09 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:50 am I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.
Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.
Yes, well put! Hard to dispute the facts as MDlax has rolled them out here (although many would). And I agree that the past four years has lead us to uncertain, and yes, frightening times.

To answer YA's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.
... in my opinion Cheney and the various other anti-Trump republicans in the House are the canaries in the mine shaft. Their futures will tell us just how far out of their minds the republican base really is.
I took the liberty of adding jhu's comment in to this thread, hope that is okay with everyone.

Really appreciate the dialogue felllas. Seems that it all started w/Trump as the pivot point, THEN, he dragged the rest of (for the most part)the party through the gutter with him leaving them with few choices as their POTUS. It puts anyone not for the ideals of the Democratic Party and to their left as a Trumpist...which is wrong and the reason for 90% of the back and forth around here. I can be a non-trump supporter and still be a conservative. Someone like me, who wanted and voted for Kasich and is pushing for Hogan...both are what the R party needs, thrown in Cheney as JHU mentioned, and there is solid starting point.

Again, appreciate the back and forth.
...no one has said there aren't some sane republicans, you just named half of them. ;) The problem is they aren't the party majority. Not by a long shot.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:10 pm
by jhu72
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.
Paraphrasing what Warren Rudman once said, you have a constitutional right to be wrong. And you seem to exercise it a lot.
:lol: :lol: :lol: You win the Internet today.

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:26 pm
by cradleandshoot
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:10 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:28 pm
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:18 pm Listen to this and try not to say, "Yeah, they are f*cking crazy."

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1413148288367267841
It does not matter what I think. IMO both parties are a couple sammiches short of a full pick inick basket.
Paraphrasing what Warren Rudman once said, you have a constitutional right to be wrong. And you seem to exercise it a lot.
:lol: :lol: :lol: You win the Internet today.
Winning the internet is like kissing your sister... What is the point? :D

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:31 pm
by cradleandshoot
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:06 pm
youthathletics wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:31 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:46 am
ToastDunk wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:45 am
seacoaster wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:09 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:50 am I'm tired of being called an alarmist on this topic.

As Trump won the 2016 primaries, I warned that he was/is an enormously corrupt human being with clear authoritarian aspirations, utilizing all the tools fascists have employed across history. I did not think he would prevail in the general, though I was concerned that Clinton was so flawed as a candidate that it could be close. As a protest, neither got my vote in a state where it was clear that Clinton would win.

I thought that most of my fellow Republicans were merely buffaloed by his braggadocio and overt "patriotism", with others definitely finding his nativist language appealing in a world in which demography had been declared to be destiny. I thought the first group was the dominant group and the latter merely fringe.

I was surprised that his appeal was so broad, though the wide overall differential in popular vote contrasted with the wide margin in the Electoral College exposed a key anti-democratic flaw in our system under stress. That was worrisome.

The attempted "Muslim ban" out of the gate as POTUS was explicit "Otherism" as had been the "Mexican rapist" etc language. Fascist playbook stuff. Charlottesville. Winks and nods, dog whistles, white supremacists emboldened and suburbanized.

Normalized lying. Active misinformation and disinformation campaigns. "Flood the zone". And, yes, even outside interference in such. Embrace of such 'help'.

Demands of "loyalty" of party members, not to ideology but to individual "strong man". Driving out of party and office any who transgressed hard line loyalty.

The midterm seemed heartening that there was an effective pushback against this.

But meanwhile, the loyalty purges continued and the active weaponization of the DOJ and other instruments of executive power accelerated.

The lying and red meat dog whistles went on at ever higher levels, given that it was rewarded within the party.

Q

Covid in an election year...the pressurized world of information and disinformation exposed to anyone with open eyes the gross incompetence and self-serving of the POTUS. But for those who had bound themselves to the lens of the world of right wing disinformation, the pandemic was a 'hoax' , an exaggeration, something to blame on the "Other" (whether China or Gates and Fauci or...) , that collective public health action was a threat to "freedom"...

George Floyd and other police killings suddenly on film, largest civil rights protests in history, across the world, some rioting. Attempts by POTUS to employ the military against the protests, first step to martial law, rejected (thank god and this time) by the military.

And then the GOP, with Trump as always the loudest bull horn, lying about election integrity, predicting that millions of illegal votes would be cast (just as had been fraudulently claimed in 2016), that the election was "rigged" against Republicans.

And yet we then had massive turnout in reaction to all the corruption, incompetence, and lies...and Trump lost (but had massive turnout too)...but would not accept the loss, forced fellow Republicans to not accept the loss, demanded the election be overturned, called his supporters to a massive rally in DC on Jan 6 and exhorted them to march on the Capitol to "Stop the Steal"; INSURRECTION.

Ok, Republicans initially reacted, by and large, appropriately, in horror at what they'd enabled; I thought we were at a breaking point where the GOP could finally separate themselves from the hard right "populism" embodied in "Trumpism"...but now here we are and the actions are being denied as ever being a serious threat, not really the fault of Trump and his enablers (including themselves), a momentary aberration...and oh yeah, "Trump won"...

Continued purges for loyalty to the Big Lie and kowtowing to Trump. Acceptance of the most egregious hard right behavior.

So, my conclusion is that the GOP has normalized the Big Lie, has normalized a power at any cost mentality. There's no commitment to the actual principles of democracy.

I don't think there are any lines they are not willing to cross.
Great post. +1,000,000.

The issue, YA, boils down to respect for and adherence to the rule of law. I think about it like this:

The events encompassed within the time period of the video compilation included (1) an election; (2) numerous observed recounts; (3) dozens of litigation alleging irregularities and fraud, uniformly dismissed by judges nominated by both parties, including several recent Trump appointees; and (4) certifications of the votes by the several States) are all things about which all of the speakers did not care.

Their statements -- and these are effectively GOP leadership in form and substance -- can only be described as brazen and lawless disregard for all of these things. Their statements, in the face of all of these elements of the candidate's "due process," badly and perhaps permanently damaged confidence in the vote and in the institutions that allow voting to happen. Respectfully, if that's not scary, you don't understand what happened here.
Yes, well put! Hard to dispute the facts as MDlax has rolled them out here (although many would). And I agree that the past four years has lead us to uncertain, and yes, frightening times.

To answer YA's question above regarding why I'm frightened by a GOP ticket, I'd say because there's little evidence of a GOP candidate who's shown a modicum of integrity. My goodness, even J.D. Vance recently sold his soul. That said, there certainly are Republicans who I could see at the top of a Presidential ticket that wouldn't "scare" me. Romney, Kasich, Hogan, Duncan (GA's Lt. Gov). Mind you, there's plenty I wouldn't be happy with regarding policy direction, but no, these candidates wouldn't frighten me. The problem is none of them are embraced by the Party, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. What kind of administration would they be able to hobble together? And I'm not talking about getting past the Dem's, they'd have their hands full trying to please the current GOP. That's what concerns me, a GOP Party with no platform running rudderless, it's only mission to win.
... in my opinion Cheney and the various other anti-Trump republicans in the House are the canaries in the mine shaft. Their futures will tell us just how far out of their minds the republican base really is.
I took the liberty of adding jhu's comment in to this thread, hope that is okay with everyone.

Really appreciate the dialogue felllas. Seems that it all started w/Trump as the pivot point, THEN, he dragged the rest of (for the most part)the party through the gutter with him leaving them with few choices as their POTUS. It puts anyone not for the ideals of the Democratic Party and to their left as a Trumpist...which is wrong and the reason for 90% of the back and forth around here. I can be a non-trump supporter and still be a conservative. Someone like me, who wanted and voted for Kasich and is pushing for Hogan...both are what the R party needs, thrown in Cheney as JHU mentioned, and there is solid starting point.

Again, appreciate the back and forth.
...no one has said there aren't some sane republicans, you just named half of them. ;) The problem is they aren't the party majority. Not by a long shot.
Why is it that all those "sane" Republicans have the backbone of a jellyfish? Everyone of those "sane Republicans" would get butts kicked in a run for POTUS. I like how the Democrats want to tell the Republican party who they like and who they should run for POTUS. :D

Re: January 6, 2021: Insurrection or “normal tourist” visitation?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:40 pm
by youthathletics
That is their kryptonite cradle. No one likes to be told what to do or how to think....and yet, their political side tells them all the time what to do and what to think.