JUST the Stolen Documents/Mar-A-Lago/"Judge" Cannon Trial

[MDlaxfan76]

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑
If I'm not mistaken, West Point was taken quite off guard by Trump's pronouncement, not consulted in the slightest. With Annapolis having made the call not to do a ceremony yet.

Have you spoken to a SA student this year? or for that matter any one that has graduated and asked them how they'd feel missing commissioning week? I personally know many that are upset and want them to figure it out.

Any chance Trump knows how important this is for them?....I know, know, no way, he just wants to prop up little girl and boy soldiers. And yet, people are upset little johnny can't run out the tunnel another year for his lax team and we have write letters to to argue why we owe them this.

Yes MDLF76 you are mistaken. This is one of the options USMA planned out & recommended.

I hope USNA follows the lead of USAFA & USMA. It could be done safely in Bancroft Hall, marching into NMCMS for the ceremony.
Limit attendance. Vulnerable faculty & family members need not attend.

Butt out & let the Service Academies decide.

Can you link some reporting indicating they weren't quite surprised by Trump's announcement?

However, it would not surprise me in the least if they had worked through various scenarios.
Contingency Planning 101.

Like I said, I think this could be pulled off without much risk to the young folks. Not so simple for everyone else.
But sure, no parents over 50 or with other health conditions, no faculty same, no staff same.

But don't need Trump for any of that.

As to "let the Service Academies decide" crack, do you really think that when Trump says to do it, they don't salute and say yes sir? You really think this is their independent call?

[old salt]

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑
If I'm not mistaken, West Point was taken quite off guard by Trump's pronouncement, not consulted in the slightest. With Annapolis having made the call not to do a ceremony yet.

Have you spoken to a SA student this year? or for that matter any one that has graduated and asked them how they'd feel missing commissioning week? I personally know many that are upset and want them to figure it out.

Any chance Trump knows how important this is for them?....I know, know, no way, he just wants to prop up little girl and boy soldiers. And yet, people are upset little johnny can't run out the tunnel another year for his lax team and we have write letters to to argue why we owe them this.

Yes MDLF76 you are mistaken. This is one of the options USMA planned out & recommended.

I hope USNA follows the lead of USAFA & USMA. It could be done safely in Bancroft Hall, marching into NMCMS for the ceremony.
Limit attendance. Vulnerable faculty & family members need not attend.

Butt out & let the Service Academies decide.

Can you link some reporting indicating they weren't quite surprised by Trump's announcement?

However, it would not surprise me in the least if they had worked through various scenarios.
Contingency Planning 101.

Like I said, I think this could be pulled off without much risk to the young folks. Not so simple for everyone else.
But sure, no parents over 50 or with other health conditions, no faculty same, no staff same.

But don't need Trump for any of that.

As to "let the Service Academies decide" crack, do you really think that when Trump says to do it, they don't salute and say yes sir? You really think this is their independent call?

The NYT reported that delaying until mid-June for a ceremony was one of the contingencies USMA leadership was considering as part of their summer "battle plan".

[Kismet]

MOH recipient and USMA faculty member Col. Jack Jacobs (ret.) thinks its a bad idea and does not benefit the cadets to have them return and endure quarantine and testing near the area with the largest outbreak in the entire country when there is ample precedent to assign commissions/assignments without cadets being on campus. He asks cui bono? Views it as DOPUS' ego/being in front of a camera and center of attention taking precedent over doing what is right for the cadets, faculty and staff at West Point.

So I guess OS thinks Col. Jacobs is full of it as well.

[MDlaxfan76]

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑
If I'm not mistaken, West Point was taken quite off guard by Trump's pronouncement, not consulted in the slightest. With Annapolis having made the call not to do a ceremony yet.

Have you spoken to a SA student this year? or for that matter any one that has graduated and asked them how they'd feel missing commissioning week? I personally know many that are upset and want them to figure it out.

Any chance Trump knows how important this is for them?....I know, know, no way, he just wants to prop up little girl and boy soldiers. And yet, people are upset little johnny can't run out the tunnel another year for his lax team and we have write letters to to argue why we owe them this.

Yes MDLF76 you are mistaken. This is one of the options USMA planned out & recommended.

I hope USNA follows the lead of USAFA & USMA. It could be done safely in Bancroft Hall, marching into NMCMS for the ceremony.
Limit attendance. Vulnerable faculty & family members need not attend.

Butt out & let the Service Academies decide.

Can you link some reporting indicating they weren't quite surprised by Trump's announcement?

However, it would not surprise me in the least if they had worked through various scenarios.
Contingency Planning 101.

Like I said, I think this could be pulled off without much risk to the young folks. Not so simple for everyone else.
But sure, no parents over 50 or with other health conditions, no faculty same, no staff same.

But don't need Trump for any of that.

As to "let the Service Academies decide" crack, do you really think that when Trump says to do it, they don't salute and say yes sir? You really think this is their independent call?

The NYT reported that delaying until mid-June for a ceremony was one of the contingencies USMA leadership was considering as part of their summer "battle plan".

Yes, I'd seen that as well.
Like I said, Contingency Planning 101.

I also saw how the Commandant said that they'd be following guidance from the State regardless of what they would otherwise want to do. Obviously that all clear has not yet happened. We're still in 'it all depends' mode.

My point wasn't whether they'd done contingency planning (of course they would) but rather that Trump tweeted without consultation or coordination as soon as he heard that Pence was going forward with AFA. USMA indicated surprise and no prior coordination. Didn't know when.

But I'm not sweating the USMA. They like everyone else being responsible are doing the best they can to manage these processes to keep their constituents safe and sound, no extraneous activities, no unnecessary exposures.

But then they get the word from Trump.
so, I'd expect them to make the best of the situation.

Trump's the issue, not the USMA.

[old salt]

MOH recipient and USMA faculty member Col. Jack Jacobs (ret.) thinks its a bad idea and does not benefit the cadets to have them return and endure quarantine and testing near the area with the largest outbreak in the entire country when there is ample precedent to assign commissions/assignments without cadets being on campus. He asks cui bono? Views it as DOPUS' ego/being in front of a camera and center of attention taking precedent over doing what is right for the cadets, faculty and staff at West Point.

So I guess OS thinks Col. Jacobs is full of it as well.

...& I bet you heard that on MSNBC. Faculty & staff don't need to attend. They didn't attend at USAFA.

USAFA housed their 1/c for 59 days & had a graduation/commissioning ceremony. They did not become a COVID hotspot ?

The confirmation gave USMA 2 mos to prepare.

[Kismet]

What difference does it make where he said what he said? He is a retired officer and MoH recipient and has a relevant position at the Academy and within military circles. His reputation is quite impeccable.

He wasn't speaking for himself as a faculty member but was giving his opinion with regard to the benefits (or lack thereof) to the cadet class which can go forward with assignment/commission without any ceremony.

He asked Cui bono? and you flunked the answer (as you always do when it comes to excusing stupid and infantile behavior from occupant of the WH.

[old salt]

What difference does it make where he said what he said? He is a retired officer and MoH recipient and has a relevant position at the Academy and within military circles. His reputation is quite impeccable.

He wasn't speaking for himself as a faculty member but was giving his opinion with regard to the benefits (or lack thereof) to the cadet class which can go forward with assignment/commission without any ceremony.

He asked Cui bono? and you flunked the answer (as you always do when it comes to excusing stupid and infantile behavior from occupant of the WH.

Cuo bono ? So you & Col Jack speak for the entire USMA Class of 2020 ?

You can bet that USMA leadership has consulted with their USAFA counterparts on how to do this safely.

Things will be less risky in 2 mos.

[Kismet]

What difference does it make where he said what he said? He is a retired officer and MoH recipient and has a relevant position at the Academy and within military circles. His reputation is quite impeccable.

He wasn't speaking for himself as a faculty member but was giving his opinion with regard to the benefits (or lack thereof) to the cadet class which can go forward with assignment/commission without any ceremony.

He asked Cui bono? and you flunked the answer (as you always do when it comes to excusing stupid and infantile behavior from occupant of the WH.

Cuo bono ? So you & Col Jack speak for the entire USMA Class of 2020 ?

You can bet that USMA leadership has consulted with their USAFA counterparts on how to do this safely.

Things will be less risky in 2 mos.

No. But this is America where we are entitled to an informed opinion different from you. You can second guess naval leadership almost daily here but anyone else with a opinion is an amateur including a MoH recipient and combat leader.

I'm also in total agreement with farfromgeneva's opinion of how you often roll around here.

But your reply here is more emotional than 250 posts on issues you’ve vehemently held your ground on. How’s you get so uptight about this and play the semantics games I see you play in defending a specific side so frequently?

[old salt]

What difference does it make where he said what he said? He is a retired officer and MoH recipient and has a relevant position at the Academy and within military circles. His reputation is quite impeccable.

He wasn't speaking for himself as a faculty member but was giving his opinion with regard to the benefits (or lack thereof) to the cadet class which can go forward with assignment/commission without any ceremony.

He asked Cui bono? and you flunked the answer (as you always do when it comes to excusing stupid and infantile behavior from occupant of the WH.

Cuo bono ? So you & Col Jack speak for the entire USMA Class of 2020 ?

You can bet that USMA leadership has consulted with their USAFA counterparts on how to do this safely.

Things will be less risky in 2 mos.

No. But this is America where we are entitled to an informed opinion different from you. You can second guess naval leadership almost daily here but anyone else with a opinion is an amateur including a MoH recipient and combat leader.

I'm also in total agreement with farfromgeneva's opinion of how you often roll around here.

But your reply here is more emotional than 250 posts on issues you’ve vehemently held your ground on. How’s you get so uptight about this and play the semantics games I see you play in defending a specific side so frequently?

FYI -- Sec Modly was " Naval leadership", as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough for Capt Crozier (based on his isolated perspective). In the Gallagher case, I was willing to wait for the results of the Court Martial & I supported their verdict. I presume you condone undue command influence by Navy leadership & prefer that an innocent man spend his life in prison -- just to spite Trump.

...& I ask you -- since when is it emotional to ask "excuse me" ?

[Kismet]

as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough

The same guys you threw under the bus this week after deciding you'd defer to Milley/Esper rather than uniformed Naval leadership who recommended that Captain Crozier be restored to command of the T.R. and that they were acting too fast.....

[Typical Lax Dad]

MOH recipient and USMA faculty member Col. Jack Jacobs (ret.) thinks its a bad idea and does not benefit the cadets to have them return and endure quarantine and testing near the area with the largest outbreak in the entire country when there is ample precedent to assign commissions/assignments without cadets being on campus. He asks cui bono? Views it as DOPUS' ego/being in front of a camera and center of attention taking precedent over doing what is right for the cadets, faculty and staff at West Point.

So I guess OS thinks Col. Jacobs is full of it as well.

He’s mad that Hillary lost.... dude “don’t” realize Trump was duly elected.

[Typical Lax Dad]

as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough

The same guys you threw under the bus this week after deciding you'd defer to Milley/Esper rather than uniformed Naval leadership who recommended that Captain Crozier be restored to command of the T.R. and that they were acting too fast.....

Perfect example of no credibility....

[old salt]

as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough

The same guys you threw under the bus this week after deciding you'd defer to Milley/Esper rather than uniformed Naval leadership who recommended that Captain Crozier be restored to command of the T.R. and that they were acting too fast.....

What ??? ...show us my words where I'm throwing Navy leadership under the bus & deciding I'd defer to Milley/Esper.
I'm still waiting to see what the inquiry & investigation reveal.
No need to defer to Milley/Esper. We're going to learn more regardless.

Your keyboard's stuck or you passed out pressing it.

[old salt]

as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough

The same guys you threw under the bus this week after deciding you'd defer to Milley/Esper rather than uniformed Naval leadership who recommended that Captain Crozier be restored to command of the T.R. and that they were acting too fast.....

Perfect example of no credibility....

No surprise. He makes unfounded accusations like that all the time.

[Kismet]

as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough

The same guys you threw under the bus this week after deciding you'd defer to Milley/Esper rather than uniformed Naval leadership who recommended that Captain Crozier be restored to command of the T.R. and that they were acting too fast.....

What ??? ...show us my words where I'm throwing Navy leadership under the bus & deciding I'd defer to Milley/Esper.
I'm still waiting to see what the inquiry & investigation reveal.
No need to defer to Milley/Esper. We're going to learn more regardless.

Your keyboard's stuck or you passed out pressing it.

Your words not my keyboard - keep reinventing history and denying what you said just like the DOPUS you rode in with

Navy leadership is anxious to restore Crozier to command of the TR. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (this one's an Army General), is saying -- not so fast. If you're going to take an unprecedented step like that, it needs to be based upon a thorough formal investigation, not a rushed informal inquiry conducted electronically from DC. I'm betting Esper sides with Milley & we get a formal investigation, unless Trump urges otherwise.

[old salt]

as was the rest of the uniformed CoC, who were apparently not acting fast enough

The same guys you threw under the bus this week after deciding you'd defer to Milley/Esper rather than uniformed Naval leadership who recommended that Captain Crozier be restored to command of the T.R. and that they were acting too fast.....

What ??? ...show us my words where I'm throwing Navy leadership under the bus & deciding I'd defer to Milley/Esper.
I'm still waiting to see what the inquiry & investigation reveal.
No need to defer to Milley/Esper. We're going to learn more regardless.

Your keyboard's stuck or you passed out pressing it.

Your words not my keyboard - keep reinventing history and denying what you said just like the DOPUS you rode in with

Navy leadership is anxious to restore Crozier to command of the TR. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (this one's an Army General), is saying -- not so fast. If you're going to take an unprecedented step like that, it needs to be based upon a thorough formal investigation, not a rushed informal inquiry conducted electronically from DC. I'm betting Esper sides with Milley & we get a formal investigation, unless Trump urges otherwise.

That's not throwing anyone under the bus. It's an accurate summary of the reporting to date which I've linked.

More on the TR inquiry :

https://www.defenseone.com/politics/202 ... e_today_nl

The decision now rests with Esper, who received the recommendation verbally and will wait to make a decision until he reviews the written report, according to a statement from top Pentagon spokesman Jonathan Hoffman.

“The Navy’s inquiry covered a complex timeline of communications between Naval officers, as well as response efforts spanning a dozen time zones and multiple commands,” said one senior defense official who was not authorized to speak on the record during an ongoing and sensitive inquiry. “Although many in the media are focused on one aspect of the initial inquiry, it is in fact about more than one person. The Secretary wants to ensure that the report is thorough and can stand up under the rightful scrutiny of Congress, the media, the families and the crew of the Theodore Roosevelt, and the American people.”

The recommendation represents yet another dramatic turn in the saga surrounding the Roosevelt. Crozier’s removal by then-Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly earlier this month sparked a tumultuous series of events that culminated in Modly’s resignation.

“[Esper]’s going into this with an open mind and he’s generally inclined to support Navy leadership and their positions,” Hoffman told reporters in a morning briefing, before the defense secretary had received the Navy’s recommendation.

I saw a previous report that the VCNO & his staff conducted their inquiry via phone. I was surprised that the investigating officer did not travel to Guam, via Pearl Harbor, to personally interview the CoC members between Modly & the Crozier. The above quote indicates that message traffic & other electrionic communications were also examined. Apparently, Sec Esper feels a JAG investigation, or ar least something more thorough than this inquiry, is necessary to withstand Congressional scrutiny.

Without having seen the inquiry, who are we to second guess Esper, for requiring more documentation upon which to base what will be a controversial decision, no matter what he decides. If Esper reinstates Crozier, without a thorough investigation & a solid basis for his decision, he can be accused of going along with the Navy CoC, just to make a bad PR issue go away or to shield the Navy CoC from scrutiny of what they were not doing or recommending to adequately deal with the outbreak on the TR.

[Typical Lax Dad]

MOH recipient and USMA faculty member Col. Jack Jacobs (ret.) thinks its a bad idea and does not benefit the cadets to have them return and endure quarantine and testing near the area with the largest outbreak in the entire country when there is ample precedent to assign commissions/assignments without cadets being on campus. He asks cui bono? Views it as DOPUS' ego/being in front of a camera and center of attention taking precedent over doing what is right for the cadets, faculty and staff at West Point.

So I guess OS thinks Col. Jacobs is full of it as well.

...& I bet you heard that on MSNBC. Faculty & staff don't need to attend. They didn't attend at USAFA.

USAFA housed their 1/c for 59 days & had a graduation/commissioning ceremony. They did not become a COVID hotspot ?

The confirmation gave USMA 2 mos to prepare.

More sloppy seconds for your CinC

[LandM]

MD,
Prior to this post to the best of my knowledge you did not weigh in on graduation at an Academy. But you did in a round about way state that some Academy graduates are egotistical and have their heads up a channel. Which I agree with you, we call those guys ring knockers. I like them as much as you do. My point was I am not one of them but I will defend the institution to the surprise of anyone who knows my travels of the academy experience. Thankfully I played a game that is very important for all the service academies - bragging rights.

Further, it has been customary that the President rotates and speaks at a service academy and the VP does the same. Had I not been given my "sabbatical" I would never had the opportunity to shake Reagan's hand - yes, he stayed out there for all of us which was atypical - first 20 cadets get the shake and he exists right. My old man retired E-9 had a 40x40 hanging in the living room when my parents were alive. That was the proudest day of his life.

At the academy, even athletes go through the same O-course, SERE, jump school, hell week, ring night, T-41 school, and for me over 100 confinements and over 100 tours, I am proud to say that I am one of the few to accomplish this . I never took my experiences at the academy seriously but when I was sworn in as an LT and when I was given my assignment and now it become real. Just for kicks because I had a few run-ins with the academy police (enlisted folks ranging from an E-3 to E-5, who are great guys) i drove through the gate and got saluted so I did that about 10 times and yes that set me back over $200 but it was fun and they had fun.

Graduates of an academy are not props for a President that you and others cannot stand. They went through way more cra$ then the average college student. The academy is not college. It exists going all the way back to USMA's founding to train future leaders of the military full stop.

[cradleandshoot]

MD,
Prior to this post to the best of my knowledge you did not weigh in on graduation at an Academy. But you did in a round about way state that some Academy graduates are egotistical and have their heads up a channel. Which I agree with you, we call those guys ring knockers. I like them as much as you do. My point was I am not one of them but I will defend the institution to the surprise of anyone who knows my travels of the academy experience. Thankfully I played a game that is very important for all the service academies - bragging rights.

Further, it has been customary that the President rotates and speaks at a service academy and the VP does the same. Had I not been given my "sabbatical" I would never had the opportunity to shake Reagan's hand - yes, he stayed out there for all of us which was atypical - first 20 cadets get the shake and he exists right. My old man retired E-9 had a 40x40 hanging in the living room when my parents were alive. That was the proudest day of his life.

At the academy, even athletes go through the same O-course, SERE, jump school, hell week, ring night, T-41 school, and for me over 100 confinements and over 100 tours, I am proud to say that I am one of the few to accomplish this . I never took my experiences at the academy seriously but when I was sworn in as an LT and when I was given my assignment and now it become real. Just for kicks because I had a few run-ins with the academy police (enlisted folks ranging from an E-3 to E-5, who are great guys) i drove through the gate and got saluted so I did that about 10 times and yes that set me back over $200 but it was fun and they had fun.

Graduates of an academy are not props for a President that you and others cannot stand. They went through way more cra$ then the average college student. The academy is not college. It exists going all the way back to USMA's founding to train future leaders of the military full stop.

There are a few FLP cumquats around here who I would love to see have to endure SEER. We had a brief version while serving at Ft Bragg. I loved the interrogation part. Blindfolded, hogtied and forced to kneel on gravel while interrogated, punched in the head and urinated on. I eventually lost 2 teeth to the training we went through. It gave you a harsh reality on what to expect if you were captured by the bad guys. I remember being asked 100 times... what's your unit, what's your mission, who is your commanding officer, over and over. This even more extreme training for you fly boys. The intell you possess is a thousand times more important than anything I ever knew.

[MDlaxfan76]

MD,
Prior to this post to the best of my knowledge you did not weigh in on graduation at an Academy. But you did in a round about way state that some Academy graduates are egotistical and have their heads up a channel. Which I agree with you, we call those guys ring knockers. I like them as much as you do. My point was I am not one of them but I will defend the institution to the surprise of anyone who knows my travels of the academy experience. Thankfully I played a game that is very important for all the service academies - bragging rights.

Further, it has been customary that the President rotates and speaks at a service academy and the VP does the same. Had I not been given my "sabbatical" I would never had the opportunity to shake Reagan's hand - yes, he stayed out there for all of us which was atypical - first 20 cadets get the shake and he exists right. My old man retired E-9 had a 40x40 hanging in the living room when my parents were alive. That was the proudest day of his life.

At the academy, even athletes go through the same O-course, SERE, jump school, hell week, ring night, T-41 school, and for me over 100 confinements and over 100 tours, I am proud to say that I am one of the few to accomplish this . I never took my experiences at the academy seriously but when I was sworn in as an LT and when I was given my assignment and now it become real. Just for kicks because I had a few run-ins with the academy police (enlisted folks ranging from an E-3 to E-5, who are great guys) i drove through the gate and got saluted so I did that about 10 times and yes that set me back over $200 but it was fun and they had fun.

Graduates of an academy are not props for a President that you and others cannot stand. They went through way more cra$ then the average college student. The academy is not college. It exists going all the way back to USMA's founding to train future leaders of the military full stop.

Again, I think you may have mixed me up or my views up with someone else.

I guess that if I've critiqued someone who happens to have also been a USMA grad that would meet the criteria of "some" as in "some Academy graduates are egotistical and have their heads up a channel." Perhaps fitting your term "ring knocker".

But I'm not so sure that my critique of any such individual ever actually had anything to do with where they went to school, USMA or otherwise. If I've critiqued a USMA alum, it was because he (don't recall critiquing any female grads, but could have) did something I thought deserved such critique.

I do think I've separately pushed back on the notion that military service or SA automatically confers infallibility, nobility, or other exceptional quality. Not automatically, and certainly not to the exclusion of others without the same backgrounds.

Which isn't to say that I don't have a positive bias about SA grads and their likelihood of numerous positive qualities well above average relative to the overall population. Likewise, I'm quite aware of the challenges present in an SA experience that are unlike the typical college experience. I have two SA alums in my family, and quite a few friends and colleagues. One friend of my dad's, now deceased, former Commandant at USMA. My son very seriously considered USMA, had recruiting interest from there, and I was pleased that he was so serious in that consideration and would certainly have been proud of that choice had that been where he came down.

All of which is to say that these young people and their institutions should definitely NOT be viewed as mere props for a politician.

I believe that's how TRUMP views them. He should not.