LaxPower Back-Up Stick

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:55 am Come on, stop pulling my leg. The most high profile FLP legislation to come down the pike in decades. Your trying to tell me the Democrats are going to hand that policy decision over to the Republicans? that's a good one. What next, the Democrats will let the Republicans take over planned parenthood next. your quite the comedian there Holmes.

The funny thing is that you're right because you believe it to be. Right wing branding has turned a center-right, corporatist party into the "Far Left" in the eyes of many. A piece of legislation, based off of Romneycare, forcing taxpayers to purchase a private product is somehow "Far Left Progressive".

Imagine if they actually went for a lefty, progressive piece of health care legislation. Unfortunately if they did, we might be paying half as much for the same or better healthcare

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:47 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:29 am What was hapless here is how the democrats cobbled together a dysfunctional poorly written and implemented program. Maybe the dumbasses should have read it first before they passed it?

I suppose that's what you get when you go with a Republican idea in the first place, then give away hundreds of concessions and deals to Republicans to try to get them on board, but they still hold their nose and say "we don't want to be a part of this".

As a small business owner, I've been on the ACA since 2014. Aside from spending a few minutes figuring out the application the first time, it's been smooth sailing as far as getting coverage every year since then. The private coverage itself is another issue...

Yup, Obama made a huge tactical mistake, placing way too much importance on trying to win over senate republicans, allowing them to delay and delay and delay, playing rope a dope, until time was nearly up. Thank Grassley for a lot of the problem with ACA. Still, it has served some good and is now majority popular. Obama did not listen to Pelosi or Schumer on how to deal with the republicans. This is the one thing I fear with Biden. He could repeat Obama's mistake.

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:34 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:55 am Come on, stop pulling my leg. The most high profile FLP legislation to come down the pike in decades. Your trying to tell me the Democrats are going to hand that policy decision over to the Republicans? that's a good one. What next, the Democrats will let the Republicans take over planned parenthood next. your quite the comedian there Holmes.

The funny thing is that you're right because you believe it to be. Right wing branding has turned a center-right, corporatist party into the "Far Left" in the eyes of many. A piece of legislation, based off of Romneycare, forcing taxpayers to purchase a private product is somehow "Far Left Progressive".

Imagine if they actually went for a lefty, progressive piece of health care legislation. Unfortunately if they did, we might be paying half as much for the same or better healthcare

No I am correct because not a single republican voted for their own aca plan. you really need need to try and con other people with this brand of FLP horse dung. To

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:39 pm No I am correct because not a single republican voted for their own aca plan. you really need need to try and con other people with this brand of FLP horse dung. To

Well of course R's didn't vote for it - they couldn't let the Dem's have a win. They could have brought out the best plan in the history of healthcare and R's would have all voted against it.

As far as the horses, I can lead a horse to water...

jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:50 am Yup, Obama made a huge tactical mistake, placing way too much importance on trying to win over senate republicans, allowing them to delay and delay and delay, playing rope a dope, until time was nearly up. Thank Grassley for a lot of the problem with ACA. Still, it has served some good and is now majority popular. Obama did not listen to Pelosi or Schumer on how to deal with the republicans. This is the one thing I fear with Biden. He could repeat Obama's mistake.

With all the low blows going on regarding Biden's son, along with having an up front seat to the scorched Earth policies of the Republicans from 2008-2016 on every major item, I would imagine Joe is going to be a bit different than Obama.

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:12 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:39 pm No I am correct because not a single republican voted for their own aca plan. you really need need to try and con other people with this brand of FLP horse dung. To

Well of course R's didn't vote for it - they couldn't let the Dem's have a win. They could have brought out the best plan in the history of healthcare and R's would have all voted against it.

As far as the horses, I can lead a horse to water...

They could not let the Dems have a win??? The Dems were trying to put forth the health care solution the Republicans allegedly invented in the first place. Hello... Duhhhh, would it not have been a win for the republicans. I know the Republicans are dumb, but even they are not that dumb. Silly me, maybe both parties should have taken the time to read the bill before they voted on it.

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:29 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:50 am Yup, Obama made a huge tactical mistake, placing way too much importance on trying to win over senate republicans, allowing them to delay and delay and delay, playing rope a dope, until time was nearly up. Thank Grassley for a lot of the problem with ACA. Still, it has served some good and is now majority popular. Obama did not listen to Pelosi or Schumer on how to deal with the republicans. This is the one thing I fear with Biden. He could repeat Obama's mistake.

With all the low blows going on regarding Biden's son, along with having an up front seat to the scorched Earth policies of the Republicans from 2008-2016 on every major item, I would imagine Joe is going to be a bit different than Obama.

Keep telling yourself that.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:00 pm

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:12 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:39 pm No I am correct because not a single republican voted for their own aca plan. you really need need to try and con other people with this brand of FLP horse dung. To

Well of course R's didn't vote for it - they couldn't let the Dem's have a win. They could have brought out the best plan in the history of healthcare and R's would have all voted against it.

As far as the horses, I can lead a horse to water...

They could not let the Dems have a win??? The Dems were trying to put forth the health care solution the Republicans allegedly invented in the first place. Hello... Duhhhh, would it not have been a win for the republicans. I know the Republicans are dumb, but even they are not that dumb. Silly me, maybe both parties should have taken the time to read the bill before they voted on it.

No, because the D's drew up the legislation, so it's their win, regardless of whose policy it was. It's the same with welfare for farmers that R's like so much. Socialist welfare is more a lefty idea, but it's a win for Republicans.

If the Republicans went along with the healthcare bill, they also would not have that hill to die on in 2010 to wrestle back control of congress. It was a calculated risk, and it worked out great for them for 8 years. Americans then started to realize what was actually in the ACA and a majority support it now.



Oh, and after Republicans regained control, they put forth a great healthcare bill of their own. Right? Bueller?

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:29 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:50 am Yup, Obama made a huge tactical mistake, placing way too much importance on trying to win over senate republicans, allowing them to delay and delay and delay, playing rope a dope, until time was nearly up. Thank Grassley for a lot of the problem with ACA. Still, it has served some good and is now majority popular. Obama did not listen to Pelosi or Schumer on how to deal with the republicans. This is the one thing I fear with Biden. He could repeat Obama's mistake.

With all the low blows going on regarding Biden's son, along with having an up front seat to the scorched Earth policies of the Republicans from 2008-2016 on every major item, I would imagine Joe is going to be a bit different than Obama.

Perhaps, I hope you are right. I have to wonder if Joe was not part of the reason that Obama was so patient (stupidly so).

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:02 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:00 pm

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:12 pm

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:39 pm No I am correct because not a single republican voted for their own aca plan. you really need need to try and con other people with this brand of FLP horse dung. To

Well of course R's didn't vote for it - they couldn't let the Dem's have a win. They could have brought out the best plan in the history of healthcare and R's would have all voted against it.

As far as the horses, I can lead a horse to water...

They could not let the Dems have a win??? The Dems were trying to put forth the health care solution the Republicans allegedly invented in the first place. Hello... Duhhhh, would it not have been a win for the republicans. I know the Republicans are dumb, but even they are not that dumb. Silly me, maybe both parties should have taken the time to read the bill before they voted on it.

No, because the D's drew up the legislation, so it's their win, regardless of whose policy it was. It's the same with welfare for farmers that R's like so much. Socialist welfare is more a lefty idea, but it's a win for Republicans.

If the Republicans went along with the healthcare bill, they also would not have that hill to die on in 2010 to wrestle back control of congress. It was a calculated risk, and it worked out great for them for 8 years. Americans then started to realize what was actually in the ACA and a majority support it now.



Oh, and after Republicans regained control, they put forth a great healthcare bill of their own. Right? Bueller?

Welfare for farmers, hmmmm would those include the dairy farmers going broke because the federal government mandates how much they can get for a gallon of milk they produce. The government f***s over American farmers from jump street. You get all pissy when they do something to alleviate the damage they created. DEPLORABLE you FLP types are. Try becoming a farmer there scooter. Try working 16 hour days 7 days a week 365 days a year. Then you will have earned your right to complain.

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:34 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:55 am Come on, stop pulling my leg. The most high profile FLP legislation to come down the pike in decades. Your trying to tell me the Democrats are going to hand that policy decision over to the Republicans? that's a good one. What next, the Democrats will let the Republicans take over planned parenthood next. your quite the comedian there Holmes.

The funny thing is that you're right because you believe it to be. Right wing branding has turned a center-right, corporatist party into the "Far Left" in the eyes of many. A piece of legislation, based off of Romneycare, forcing taxpayers to purchase a private product is somehow "Far Left Progressive".

Imagine if they actually went for a lefty, progressive piece of health care legislation. Unfortunately if they did, we might be paying half as much for the same or better healthcare

Let's just cut to the chase here. Fast forward to single payer healthcare. 320 million Americans, how do you make that happen? We are not talking about Sweden here a country with almost no unemployment. The US at best has 50 percent of our population that actually pays taxes. How do you pay for it slick? I have looked around a bit on the interweb. I have read all kinds of glorious articles about how wonderful it would be. FLP pie in the sky. The first problem you have to overcome is the cost. The second problem is the cold hard reality you can't cover every american for every condition under the sun. The reality is the government will have to choose who lives and who dies. You know that as that dreaded death panel issue. The only difference the government takes the place of health insurance companies when making life and death decisions. Nothing really changes, the beancounters work for different entities. You might want to really blow smoke up my ass and tell me the government can do it better.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:24 pm

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:34 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:55 am Come on, stop pulling my leg. The most high profile FLP legislation to come down the pike in decades. Your trying to tell me the Democrats are going to hand that policy decision over to the Republicans? that's a good one. What next, the Democrats will let the Republicans take over planned parenthood next. your quite the comedian there Holmes.

The funny thing is that you're right because you believe it to be. Right wing branding has turned a center-right, corporatist party into the "Far Left" in the eyes of many. A piece of legislation, based off of Romneycare, forcing taxpayers to purchase a private product is somehow "Far Left Progressive".

Imagine if they actually went for a lefty, progressive piece of health care legislation. Unfortunately if they did, we might be paying half as much for the same or better healthcare

Let's just cut to the chase here. Fast forward to single payer healthcare. 320 million Americans, how do you make that happen? We are not talking about Sweden here a country with almost no unemployment. The US at best has 50 percent of our population that actually pays taxes. How do you pay for it slick? I have looked around a bit on the interweb. I have read all kinds of glorious articles about how wonderful it would be. FLP pie in the sky. The first problem you have to overcome is the cost. The second problem is the cold hard reality you can't cover every american for every condition under the sun. The reality is the government will have to choose who lives and who dies. You know that as that dreaded death panel issue. The only difference the government takes the place of health insurance companies when making life and death decisions. Nothing really changes, the beancounters work for different entities. You might want to really blow smoke up my ass and tell me the government can do it better.

First - your 50% figure is not correct for paying taxes - it might be for paying federal income taxes. But everyone with a salary pays social security, etc. And local sales taxes, usually property taxes.

We as a country pay double for our medical care per person than a lot of those "socialist" countries - and they do not have the kind of "death panels" you refer to, which is more of a scare tactic than reality.

It is doable - but there are tradeoffs. Wealthy people will have to pay more (basically because they can more than anything else). Hospitals and drug companies may have to change their business models, and their expectations of profits. People will have to get over the idea that allowing some poor people to have nearly free medical care is a problem. Doctors might see the salaries of some of the specialties limited.

And yes - the government CAN do it better, because the goal would be to provide health care reasonably to all Americans, rather than to insure a bunch of private company profits. But it takes a LOT of political WILL to do it.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:24 pm Let's just cut to the chase here. Fast forward to single payer healthcare. 320 million Americans, how do you make that happen? We are not talking about Sweden here a country with almost no unemployment. The US at best has 50 percent of our population that actually pays taxes. How do you pay for it slick? I have looked around a bit on the interweb. I have read all kinds of glorious articles about how wonderful it would be. FLP pie in the sky. The first problem you have to overcome is the cost. The second problem is the cold hard reality you can't cover every american for every condition under the sun. The reality is the government will have to choose who lives and who dies. You know that as that dreaded death panel issue. The only difference the government takes the place of health insurance companies when making life and death decisions. Nothing really changes, the beancounters work for different entities. You might want to really blow smoke up my ass and tell me the government can do it better.

On top of Red's response, we ALREADY pay for healthcare for anyone who walks into an ER. We have free healthcare for every person who can't pay for it. And it's insanely expensive since we're treating the end case for free, and not the preventative measures months before they get very sick. It's more expensive than every other country in the world.

As far as your death panels? What do you think insurance companies do? The VA does? Medicare / Medicaid does? We already have scary "death panels" in this country, both public and private.

I'm not asking government to take over healthcare. I'm asking government to kick out the middle man insurance industry. Saving taxpayers money every year directly and indirectly.

And on top of that, I want, and support, private insurance on TOP of a government Medicare for all type for anyone who wants to pay extra for extra coverage.

The ratios of debt to GDP seem insurmountable at present by country and the world combined. Spending into oblivion.

Jim Malone wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:54 pm The ratios of debt to GDP seem insurmountable at present by country and the world combined. Spending into oblivion.

Interesting comment. So you mean it is not just a red or blue issue here in the U.S., it is a financial global pandemic. What do you suppose this implies? To me, it means everyone has gotten so far out over their skis, that there is really not as much to do anymore. We've continually increased the cost of everything far faster than we have anything to show for it.

This is where the tinfoil, cynical thinking creeps in...there needs to be a reset button, something to slow everything down, change perspectives, minimize, and a viral pandemic may just be the thing to do it.

Effective interest costs are below zero at this time for a lot of borrowing - so we actually should be increasing our debt to:

1. Overcome the economic effects of the pandemic.
2. Actually do needed infrastructure, including transitioning to a renewable/electric economy.

Fix some of these issues and the economic expansion can actually change that ratio of debt to GDP.

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:16 am Effective interest costs are below zero at this time for a lot of borrowing - so we actually should be increasing our debt to:

1. Overcome the economic effects of the pandemic.
2. Actually do needed infrastructure, including transitioning to a renewable/electric economy.

Fix some of these issues and the economic expansion can actually change that ratio of debt to GDP.

I think that's exactly correct, though perhaps not obvious to those who've been sold on the idea that if a country spends more than you take in in any given year it's all a loss. Under that view, no spending is 'investment', it's all gone.

And right now, the cost of 'investment' is very, very low, so now's the optimal time for such to be made.

jhu72 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:50 am

holmes435 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:47 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:29 am What was hapless here is how the democrats cobbled together a dysfunctional poorly written and implemented program. Maybe the dumbasses should have read it first before they passed it?

I suppose that's what you get when you go with a Republican idea in the first place, then give away hundreds of concessions and deals to Republicans to try to get them on board, but they still hold their nose and say "we don't want to be a part of this".

As a small business owner, I've been on the ACA since 2014. Aside from spending a few minutes figuring out the application the first time, it's been smooth sailing as far as getting coverage every year since then. The private coverage itself is another issue...

Yup, Obama made a huge tactical mistake, placing way too much importance on trying to win over senate republicans, allowing them to delay and delay and delay, playing rope a dope, until time was nearly up. Thank Grassley for a lot of the problem with ACA. Still, it has served some good and is now majority popular. Obama did not listen to Pelosi or Schumer on how to deal with the republicans. This is the one thing I fear with Biden. He could repeat Obama's mistake.

Come on, the only problem with the ACA is that nobody read it before they passed it... the dems should have had you proof read it for them doc. Maybe you and mittens could have ironed out all the problems with his plan. Face it doc your folks screwed the pooch on the ACA. Maybe if the dumb fudgebars had actually read the damn bill they may have figured that out. Now you want to blame the republicans for your own partys screwup. If you had asked i would have loaned the democrats my reading glasses.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:24 am

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:16 am Effective interest costs are below zero at this time for a lot of borrowing - so we actually should be increasing our debt to:

1. Overcome the economic effects of the pandemic.
2. Actually do needed infrastructure, including transitioning to a renewable/electric economy.

Fix some of these issues and the economic expansion can actually change that ratio of debt to GDP.

I think that's exactly correct, though perhaps not obvious to those who've been sold on the idea that if a country spends more than you take in in any given year it's all a loss. Under that view, no spending is 'investment', it's all gone.

And right now, the cost of 'investment' is very, very low, so now's the optimal time for such to be made.

Now you sound like a republican...I knew you had it in you. Hope you had a great day.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:29 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:24 am

RedFromMI wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:16 am Effective interest costs are below zero at this time for a lot of borrowing - so we actually should be increasing our debt to:

1. Overcome the economic effects of the pandemic.
2. Actually do needed infrastructure, including transitioning to a renewable/electric economy.

Fix some of these issues and the economic expansion can actually change that ratio of debt to GDP.

I think that's exactly correct, though perhaps not obvious to those who've been sold on the idea that if a country spends more than you take in in any given year it's all a loss. Under that view, no spending is 'investment', it's all gone.

And right now, the cost of 'investment' is very, very low, so now's the optimal time for such to be made.

Now you sound like a republican...I knew you had it in you. Hope you had a great day.

Yup, just want smarter, more honest and transparent government, not incompetent, corrupt, or ideologically driven decisions.

That needn't be D or R, it's what we should all want. And in that zone, D's and R's can disagree, but the negotiation of such can lead to consensus and compromise overall much better than division and discord.

Wonderful day yesterday. Son, wife and I took a bike ride down on Kent Island, ending with an sunset dinner on the end of the dock at the Jetty, fried oyster appetizer, burger with crab dip and bacon, rockfish and fries basket, and soft crab BLT were shared around over a pitcher of beer. Boats, band playing, sunset...discussion about life...