NCAA Tournament

[watcherinthewoods]

As the parent of a D1 defender, I can report that one of the biggest adjustments to her game in college was to lose the discipline she had around not dropping her stick to parallel. In our region the moment a defender dropped her stick from vertical to horizontal, it was a foul, if not a YC.

Regardless of what the rule states, college defenders are taught to drop their stick and make contact. The proof is in bruises on the upper arms of the attack.

The upside of this is that she absolutely has to learn to play defense with her feet.

[@inthe8m]

As the parent of a D1 defender, I can report that one of the biggest adjustments to her game in college was to lose the discipline she had around not dropping her stick to parallel. In our region the moment a defender dropped her stick from vertical to horizontal, it was a foul, if not a YC.

Regardless of what the rule states, college defenders are taught to drop their stick and make contact. The proof is in bruises on the arms, torso, and hips of the attack.

The upside of this is that she absolutely has to learn to play defense with her feet.

Corrected.

[wlaxphan20]

As the parent of a D1 defender, I can report that one of the biggest adjustments to her game in college was to lose the discipline she had around not dropping her stick to parallel. In our region the moment a defender dropped her stick from vertical to horizontal, it was a foul, if not a YC.

Regardless of what the rule states, college defenders are taught to drop their stick and make contact. The proof is in bruises on the upper arms of the attack.

The upside of this is that she absolutely has to learn to play defense with her feet.

I thought it was quite amusing when the rules committee made it a point of emphasis to call fouls on parallel sticks

[wlaxphan20]

Is it a cross check if your arms are not extended?

From the Rule book. Rule 6, Section 1, d:

Cross Check: Initiating stick-to-body contact and using the shaft of the stick
to hit, push or displace an opponent.

I would say that she is pushing or displacing an opponent with the shaft of her stick. There is no reference to arm extension.

This is a by-product of announcers mentioning the extension of arms because the "extension" just makes it that much more obvious on the cross check.

I agree. Extension of the arms after contact displaces your opponent, which is why it's probably used so much by announcers. It's the easiest way for watchers to identify it. You can absolutely push or displace your opponent without arm extension, especially when you see the defender approach the attacker and make contact. Also, the photo looks like it's from 2021, when the game was played at UNC.

I also agree with Sunnylax. We don't know exactly what was going on in the photo. This could be well after contact was made on a re-dodge or it could be the initial contact. Either way, I'm still not really sure what the point of the photo was

Does it matter? Does it matter when in the dodge the contact is made if it is made with the shaft of the stick? We can only go from what the photo shows. It clearly shows contact made with the shaft of the stick to hit, push or displace an opponent. If this was a charge I would think the angle of contact would be different as @8m indicated.

This being said, I believe this is a manifestation of how big and strong and skilled the offensive players have become. Even a defender as good as 23 is with feet and lateral movement as good as she has uses the shaft of the stick to help defend the attackers. Should it be called more often? If the rule is not changed then I would say yes but the game is evolving to accept this type of defense as long as it is not too egregious.

Yes, exactly, we can only go off what the photo is showing us. We have no idea where either player was directly before or after this photo was taken, what direction they were moving, etc. All I'm saying is we don't know if Trenchard is intentionally basically launching herself at her opponent to initiate contact or if this is mid-redodge and a change of direction threw Trenchard off balance or if it's something else entirely. Trenchard could just be holding her line against a much taller opponent, the very next frame could show that she has her feet back under her, and so on and son on. Yeah, I know exactly how the photo looks, but a lot happens in a 3-5 second play. It doesn't have to just be either a charge or a cross check.

So the way the rule is written........in the photo in question.....is this a cross check?

Not what may or may not be happening before or after. Does the picture depict the definition of a cross check?

Bart, I'd still say I don't have enough information to say for sure. Picture this: the JMU player is crease rolling. Trenchard has her positioning on the 8m line and arms extended, not completely, but maybe at the typical 140-ish degrees. The JMU player initiates contact and is strong enough that Trenchard is not able to maintain her arms at their current extension and they flex back towards her body. Trenchard digs her heels in to hold her line, because that's all she can really do. The JMU player never gets shoved/displaced/etc. From my POV that scenario is just as likely as any other.

We will have to agree to disagree but even in your description above you are talking about extension. That is not in the rule books. If she is making contact with the shaft of the stick at all....as the rule is stated, imo that is a cross check because why else would you have contact with the attacker if not to "to hit, push or displace an opponent". Unless in your scenario when the JMU player initiates contact it miraculously causes her hands to fly apart initiating the contact of the shaft of the stick to the body of the attacker.

It is all good. We just disagree.

The extension I’m talking about is where her arms start, before the attacker has initiated contact, while she’s “set”. They are (theoretically) “extended” at roughly 140 degrees. If you hold out both arms in front of you, slightly bent, that is the same thing. The defender is allowed to try and maintain the extension that exists at contact but cannot further extend, after contact is made, to displace her opponent. There are times the defender cannot maintain that extension, and the elbows bend as the stick moves closer to the defenders body. Shoving back to regain the space she conceded as her elbows bent would be a cross check.

I can definitely agree to disagree, I just wanted to clarify. All good here too

One last clarification please….thanks

So you’re of the opinion that the contact can occur with the shaft of the stick?

I am of the opinion that the contact can not occur with the shaft of the stick. To do so is cross checking. This is why when we teach defense to kids we put tape a few inches up the stick and have the kids keep their hands on the tape and butt of their stick. Contact initiates with the hands and not the shaft.

I have noticed that as players move up in age/skill level the distance between hands increases. Culminating in what I would call a cross check at the college level.

Yes that's my opinion. I know what you're talking about and remember similar teachings as well, holding the stick much closer to vertical and making contact with the knuckles.

From what I've seen, how the contact is made is extremely important. If it is the defender taking a step (or steps) toward the attacker to initiate contact, that is a cross check, especially if the force of the contact displaces or shoves the attacker. I think officials let a lot go. But I don't think all contact between an opponents body and a defenders shaft is a cross check at the college level

[laxagainsthumanity]

I am of the opinion that the contact can not occur with the shaft of the stick. To do so is cross checking. This is why when we teach defense to kids we put tape a few inches up the stick and have the kids keep their hands on the tape and butt of their stick. Contact initiates with the hands and not the shaft.

I have noticed that as players move up in age/skill level the distance between hands increases. Culminating in what I would call a cross check at the college level.

It's pretty impossible to play defense at a high level with your hands close together. Attacker will simply dip her shoulder and your hands will be behind her and you're done, only chance is a Hail Mary backcheck. As far as the angle, it's tough to keep the stick above about 45 degrees and be able to keep up with attackers. You need a larger horizontal window to make contact. This really is just necessary to compete.

I don't consider it a crosscheck unless the stick is totally horizontal - doesn't really matter if contact is initiated with the hands or the shaft. Wasn't even aware that's not how the rule is written

[8meterPA]

As the parent of a D1 defender, I can report that one of the biggest adjustments to her game in college was to lose the discipline she had around not dropping her stick to parallel. In our region the moment a defender dropped her stick from vertical to horizontal, it was a foul, if not a YC.

Regardless of what the rule states, college defenders are taught to drop their stick and make contact. The proof is in bruises on the arms, torso, and hips of the attack.

The upside of this is that she absolutely has to learn to play defense with her feet.

Corrected.

The proof is in bruises on the arms, torso, and hips of the attack - THIS +1000

[TNLAX]

With good foot work and positioning the defender can draw the charge, actually saw a lot of charges called in games I watched this season.

[runrussellrun]

In the end Emma Trenchard and the Tar Heels were mightier in '22.

The point of this photo is..........?????

compostition

gonna paint this one, the contrast of the brick wall background, green field.....naturally occuring contrasting colours.

guache drys to fast, perhaps.

thoughts?

Then oil is should be.

who IS in for a plein air event at the Womens worlds?

[BallDown]

PSA - Was just tuning into some baseball and BIG10 is showing 2005 NW vs. UVA. Different play on the field, familiar crew in the press box. Interesting to watch.

**Can someone explain the no out of bounds behind the goal, even though there appear to be lines?

[wlaxphan20]

PSA - Was just tuning into some baseball and BIG10 is showing 2005 NW vs. UVA. Different play on the field, familiar crew in the press box. Interesting to watch.

**Can someone explain the no out of bounds behind the goal, even though there appear to be lines?

The B1G Network aired that game last summer too! I wish they aired more games from the archive instead of just repeating that one, but it’s a great game with some big names.

As for the “soft boundaries”, here’s an old thread (that explains it better than I could) from Inside Lacrosse with the press release about NCAA adding hard boundaries for women’s lacrosse in 2006 and explaining a bit how the current (in 2005) soft boundaries worked:
https://forums.insidelacrosse.com/threa ... sse.28544/

[njbill]

BallDown, thanks for the PSA. What fun this game was to watch. Oh, the names in the game.

Soft boundaries sure seem startling now.

Wlaxphan, thanks for that link. Too funny. People wringing their hands about how, oh how, are we ever going to learn to understand this new “hard boundaries” rule.

And the first generation goggles. Without checking, I think this was the second (maybe first?) year for goggles.

Love the Jen Adams hairdos.

It’s hard to think back to this game now and really appreciate its significance. Northwestern, the upstart, who had never been there. UVA, lacrosse royalty. The defending champ.

Great stuff.

And last, but not least, our Joe. I think he did a real good job in his game. And nary a mention of the shot clock.

[DMac]

A very impressive '05 KAH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ2chirhX-k

[Seacoaster(1)]

I rewatched the semis (UNC-NU, and BC-Maryland) last week, during the heat wave that made going outside untenable. I am convinced that the NU coaching staff should be apologizing to every one of the players for not helping them win that game. 14-7 with 10:00 or so to go. Coach leaves the timeout in her pocket until it is 14-14, and her team is absolutely rattled and fatigued beyond recognition. Just remarkable. The announcers note that it was NU's last timeout.

Contrast BC in its semi against Maryland. BC uses its last timeout with about 7:00 to go (this is a lifetime in a women's lacrosse game, just ask Northwestern), and coach tells them you just gotta play hard and play smart the rest of the way. She calmed her players, invested them with her own confidence, a couple of breaks went BC's way, and next thing you know, Weeks makes that remarkable handle and shot and they are getting ready for the Final.

Just cannot get over the difference.

[@inthe8m]

I rewatched the semis (UNC-NU, and BC-Maryland) last week, during the heat wave that made going outside untenable. I am convinced that the NU coaching staff should be apologizing to every one of the players for not helping them win that game. 14-7 with 10:00 or so to go. Coach leaves the timeout in her pocket until it is 14-14, and her team is absolutely rattled and fatigued beyond recognition. Just remarkable. The announcers note that it was NU's last timeout.

Contrast BC in its semi against Maryland. BC uses its last timeout with about 7:00 to go (this is a lifetime in a women's lacrosse game, just ask Northwestern), and coach tells them you just gotta play hard and play smart the rest of the way. She calmed her players, invested them with her own confidence, a couple of breaks went BC's way, and next thing you know, Weeks makes that remarkable handle and shot and they are getting ready for the Final.

Just cannot get over the difference.

That was a head scratcher at the time and will remain a head scratcher for all of eternity.

But, I have heard that KAH is the greatest coach in the history of lacrosse?

[Seacoaster(1)]

I rewatched the semis (UNC-NU, and BC-Maryland) last week, during the heat wave that made going outside untenable. I am convinced that the NU coaching staff should be apologizing to every one of the players for not helping them win that game. 14-7 with 10:00 or so to go. Coach leaves the timeout in her pocket until it is 14-14, and her team is absolutely rattled and fatigued beyond recognition. Just remarkable. The announcers note that it was NU's last timeout.

Contrast BC in its semi against Maryland. BC uses its last timeout with about 7:00 to go (this is a lifetime in a women's lacrosse game, just ask Northwestern), and coach tells them you just gotta play hard and play smart the rest of the way. She calmed her players, invested them with her own confidence, a couple of breaks went BC's way, and next thing you know, Weeks makes that remarkable handle and shot and they are getting ready for the Final.

Just cannot get over the difference.

That was a head scratcher at the time and will remain a head scratcher for all of eternity.

But, I have heard that KAH is the greatest coach in the history of lacrosse?

That is what is perplexing: she's a very good coach.

[tothedraw]

I rewatched the semis (UNC-NU, and BC-Maryland) last week, during the heat wave that made going outside untenable. I am convinced that the NU coaching staff should be apologizing to every one of the players for not helping them win that game. 14-7 with 10:00 or so to go. Coach leaves the timeout in her pocket until it is 14-14, and her team is absolutely rattled and fatigued beyond recognition. Just remarkable. The announcers note that it was NU's last timeout.

Contrast BC in its semi against Maryland. BC uses its last timeout with about 7:00 to go (this is a lifetime in a women's lacrosse game, just ask Northwestern), and coach tells them you just gotta play hard and play smart the rest of the way. She calmed her players, invested them with her own confidence, a couple of breaks went BC's way, and next thing you know, Weeks makes that remarkable handle and shot and they are getting ready for the Final.

Just cannot get over the difference.

That was a head scratcher at the time and will remain a head scratcher for all of eternity.

But, I have heard that KAH is the greatest coach in the history of lacrosse?

That is what is perplexing: she's a very good coach.

I would say she is an excellent preparation and scheme coach. Once her initial plan starts faltering, I don't think she adjusts well.

[Seacoaster(1)]

I rewatched the semis (UNC-NU, and BC-Maryland) last week, during the heat wave that made going outside untenable. I am convinced that the NU coaching staff should be apologizing to every one of the players for not helping them win that game. 14-7 with 10:00 or so to go. Coach leaves the timeout in her pocket until it is 14-14, and her team is absolutely rattled and fatigued beyond recognition. Just remarkable. The announcers note that it was NU's last timeout.

Contrast BC in its semi against Maryland. BC uses its last timeout with about 7:00 to go (this is a lifetime in a women's lacrosse game, just ask Northwestern), and coach tells them you just gotta play hard and play smart the rest of the way. She calmed her players, invested them with her own confidence, a couple of breaks went BC's way, and next thing you know, Weeks makes that remarkable handle and shot and they are getting ready for the Final.

Just cannot get over the difference.

That was a head scratcher at the time and will remain a head scratcher for all of eternity.

But, I have heard that KAH is the greatest coach in the history of lacrosse?

That is what is perplexing: she's a very good coach.

I would say she is an excellent preparation and scheme coach. Once her initial plan starts faltering, I don't think she adjusts well.

Yes, nicely said. Her skills at player development are well known and among the best, because, in the past, they had to be.