LaxPower Back-Up Stick

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:27 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:22 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:58 pm If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:27 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:22 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:58 pm If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:27 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:22 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:58 pm If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

I disagree.
Putin and the Russian military's retreat from Ukraine is necessary.
No reward for aggression.

I'm in favor of lots and lots of restraint, but ultimately this needs to be accomplished.

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:21 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:27 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:22 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:58 pm If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I think you're full on crispy-crackers if you think Putin is going to leave in defeat. Only chance of that happening is if he's taken out by some former KGB agent...poison or something. Otherwise, he's just going to get more and more aggressive with his targeting.

Otherwise, you gotta give him something. And again, imho, that something is pledged neutrality of Ukraine, and a denial of NATO. That's enough, I think.

Putin can go home claiming victory. And NO ONE will F with Ukraine anymore. And that deal costs NOTHING.

Specifics on the significance of Germany switching to the F-35

https://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-to ... _lead_pos4
Chancellor Olaf Scholz promised last month to spend €100 billion to upgrade Germany’s dilapidated military, proving that nothing focuses the mind like tanks rolling across Europe. And Berlin is already moving fast with a purchase of F-35 fighter jets.

Germany’s defense ministry said this week the country will buy Lockheed Martin’s F-35 as Germany makes down payments on meeting its NATO obligation of spending 2% of its economy on defense, up from roughly 1.5% in recent years. The F-35 would replace Germany’s geriatric Tornado jets, which have been in service since the 1980s and are now largely hangar decorations.

An F-35 buy is a potent message to Vladimir Putin for several reasons. Under NATO, America stores nuclear weapons across Europe, while several countries, including Germany, maintain aircraft capable of delivering the bombs. This arrangement is intended as a deterrent against Russia.

Germany had been thinking of buying F-18s for the nuclear mission, but the F-35 is stealthy and thus better suited for operating in a theater with sophisticated air defenses. The French have wanted the Germans to prop up a European project on a new fighter for the 2040s instead of buying F-35s. But Germany is right to conclude that after Ukraine it needs more air power now. This is a good sign for working more closely with NATO allies that are also buying the F-35.

But buying a Porsche like the F-35 is expensive and the maintenance bills keep coming long after you’ve flown off the lot. Germany will have to accept this reality amid inevitable political complaints about the expense. The plane’s engines are in short supply and have required more maintenance than expected, for example.

The F-35 program has a sorry history of running late and blowing the budget. But the jet is the most formidable option now available for a war against a peer military, and we’ll have to make the most of it. The U.S. also needs more F-35s. The Air Force has been asking for about 48 a year, but defense analyst Mark Cancian notes that at that rate the service won’t reach its goal of 1,763 jets until 2049.

The West is scrambling to improve its defenses, and this will be expensive after decades of neglect. But kudos to Germany for buying the fighter jet it needs immediately to deter aggression. If Europe is forced to confront the Russians in a fight, the hourly cost of the F-35 will not be top of mind.

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:33 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I think you're full on crispy-crackers if you think Putin is going to leave in defeat. Only chance of that happening is if he's taken out by some former KGB agent...poison or something. Otherwise, he's just going to get more and more aggressive with his targeting.

Otherwise, you gotta give him something. And again, imho, that something is pledged neutrality of Ukraine, and a denial of NATO. That's enough, I think.

Putin can go home claiming victory. And NO ONE will F with Ukraine anymore. And that deal costs NOTHING.

Ukraine can declare itself neutral & disavow seeking NATO & EU membership.
That does not restrict it from receiving ongoing economic & even military aid & favorable trade relations with the EU & US.

Any settlement would likely include demilitarization & limits on military capabilities.
...there are ways around that. There's already a large diaspora of Ukrainian refugees in Poland & Romania. Entire Ukrainian military units could be offered dual citizenship, & their Mig-29 & SU-27 units absorbed into the Air Forces of Poland & Romania, respectively. Poland just signed a deal to buy a bunch of Abrams tanks from the US. The Soviet legacy (improved & updated) Polish made tanks they will replace, could be organized into an armored & mechanized infantry division of battle hardened Ukrainian soldiers, rejoining their refugee families in a Kaserne right across the border in Poland. Those bases could be defended by Ukrainian manned Air Defense battalions using their surviving S-300 & Buk missile batteries. They'd be situated to roll back into Ukraine as returning volunteers bringing their Lend-Lease equipment with them, if needed. In the meantime, they'd be a significant standing contribution to the defense of NATO's E flank. Ukraine could be defended by expat forces, just across the border in Poland & Romania.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:21 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:27 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:22 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:58 pm If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

OS and a fan are spot on correct here. And no one is "rewarding his aggression." Even if that were the case, that would be a small price to pay rather than NATO and US becoming directly involved in an expanded war in Europe. The awful events in Ukraine would be dwarfed in comparison.

Negotiate a cease fire and neutrality conditions, let Putin leave, pull back from immediate brink of all-out war. That's the immediate "restraint" needed.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:25 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:33 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I think you're full on crispy-crackers if you think Putin is going to leave in defeat. Only chance of that happening is if he's taken out by some former KGB agent...poison or something. Otherwise, he's just going to get more and more aggressive with his targeting.

Otherwise, you gotta give him something. And again, imho, that something is pledged neutrality of Ukraine, and a denial of NATO. That's enough, I think.

Putin can go home claiming victory. And NO ONE will F with Ukraine anymore. And that deal costs NOTHING.

Ukraine can declare itself neutral & disavow seeking NATO & EU membership.
That does not restrict it from receiving ongoing economic & even military aid & favorable trade relations with the EU & US.

Any settlement would likely include demilitarization & limits on military capabilities.
...there are ways around that.

Bingo.

And once Putin is out? NO WAY are they going back in. Not a chance in the world. Ukraine will be left alone, and for good reason.

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:55 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:30 pm France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:25 pm Ukraine can declare itself neutral & disavow seeking NATO & EU membership.
That does not restrict it from receiving ongoing economic & even military aid & favorable trade relations with the EU & US.

Any settlement would likely include demilitarization & limits on military capabilities ...

Ukraine needs to recognize the declaration of independence of both Donetsk & Luhansk. Kyiv needs to withdraw its forces from that region and it needs to give reparations for the war it started there in 2014. As I posted before, if Ukraine is free to declare its independence and the world recognizes it, then, that same standard applies to the Donbas region.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:37 pm

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:55 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:30 pm France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:58 pm
Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

More emotionalism. Do your homework kid, learn something. Elevate yourself to the level reached by most people here so that we could possibly have a meaningful exchange. Heck even Sussex surpasses you in political knowledge.

Russian gymnast wears Z (victory symbol) at international event:



https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIF.UZ0O65rft ... mgDet&rs=1



The contest was sponsored by FIG and held overseas in Doha. What he did is the same as when NBA players wore American symbols to support Bush's initial invasion into Iraq during the Kuwait crisis. Free speech in action.

Pretty interesting article:

https://theunpopulist.substack.com/p/pu ... dium=email

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:33 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I think you're full on crispy-crackers if you think Putin is going to leave in defeat. Only chance of that happening is if he's taken out by some former KGB agent...poison or something. Otherwise, he's just going to get more and more aggressive with his targeting.

Otherwise, you gotta give him something. And again, imho, that something is pledged neutrality of Ukraine, and a denial of NATO. That's enough, I think.

Putin can go home claiming victory. And NO ONE will F with Ukraine anymore. And that deal costs NOTHING.

Yes, but Putin won't accept that at this point and likely won't until much deeper into this.

Did you read any of his speech yesterday?

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:45 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:25 pm Ukraine can declare itself neutral & disavow seeking NATO & EU membership.
That does not restrict it from receiving ongoing economic & even military aid & favorable trade relations with the EU & US.

Any settlement would likely include demilitarization & limits on military capabilities ...

Ukraine needs to recognize the declaration of independence of both Donetsk & Luhansk. Kyiv needs to withdraw its forces from that region and it needs to give reparations for the war it started there in 2014. As I posted before, if Ukraine is free to declare its independence and the world recognizes it, then, that same standard applies to the Donbas region.

Good lord, you do realize that the "declaration" was not a free election?

You're out of your gourd, Brooklyn, with your eagerness to pretend equivalence with Ukraine's free election and the joint acceptance of such by the former Soviet Union and the West, and this taking of territory by Russian incursion. The separatists in those regions killed those who were not interested in realignment with Russia...then declared "independence". Not free, not a majority of a darn thing. Not accepted by anybody except Russia and its acolytes.

You probably think that the US owes reparations to the plantation/slave owners???

tech37 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 9:38 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:21 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:00 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:27 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:22 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 4:14 pm

old salt wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 3:58 pm If Zelenskyy does not offer an escape route which Putin will accept, the US will eventually go to war in Ukraine, along with some or all of NATO.
That will provide an opportunity to see if the use of tactical nuclear weapons can be limited to the battle space.

I don't think this is the right frame. Zelenskyy needn't offer anything Putin "will accept". Putin's military needs to be defeated. Aggression can't be rewarded.

Your frame of reference will take us to war.

We and the rest of the West are already at war, but by proxy. It's important to win it decisively. There are immense consequences of not doing so.

If Putin decides to attack NATO in any way directly, he'll have made that escalation and his military will be utterly destroyed. If he goes nuclear, we should follow the playbook I suggested, providing an opportunity for the Russian military and people to revolt.

It will be a horror beyond words, but our restraint will pay enormous dividends.

Poland is already asking to send in ground forces...we need to be restrained at each step.

There is no winner or loser. Everyone has lost.
What's important is to end the carnage asap & not get mousetrapped like this again.
Don't give Russia (or China) the leverage to do this again.

+1000

MDLax....you and Doc seem to share the same view. This isn't some game where we need to shame Putin. That ship has sailed---he's already a global joke. But he's dangerous as all get out......get him out of the game, and put him out to pasture, where he can't cause any more trouble. I can assure you this will happen via his own people.

The game now is: end the war asap before it gets out of hand. Every day matters. Give Putin an offramp, and he'll take it.

If Ukraine plays the game you want them to play, who the F knows what Putin will do if backed into a corner like that. I have ZERO interest in finding out.

I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

OS and a fan are spot on correct here. And no one is "rewarding his aggression." Even if that were the case, that would be a small price to pay rather than NATO and US becoming directly involved in an expanded war in Europe. The awful events in Ukraine would be dwarfed in comparison.

Negotiate a cease fire and neutrality conditions, let Putin leave, pull back from immediate brink of all-out war. That's the immediate "restraint" needed.

Wouldn't it be great if that's all it took?

I don't know what you guys are smoking, but Putin's not going to stop anytime soon with such an offer. He's created stakes that are so much larger than what some sort of 'neutrality' would give him.

Not that he shouldn't, but just that he won't...not until more of his military force is spent and decimated in return.

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:58 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 10:37 pm

JoeMauer89 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 7:55 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:30 pm France24 news is reporting tonight that thousands of men are fleeing Russia and crossing into Turkey to avoid the draft. I imagine that this news must be disturbing to those American right wingers who condemned those who fled into Canada to avoid the draft. Amirite?

What are you getting at here? As MD said earlier today, you can't see the picture inside a 1000 yard view. You realize it discredits the opinions you are trying to make because they are so demonstrably hyperbolic. How did someone who was raised and lived in NY for so long become such an extreme member of the left?

Joe

That sure is a stupid question. First of all, opposing conscription is a right wing ideal. Remember the talk about "freedom" from government oppression? That's a conservative view. If you were principled and had so much as half a brain you would have known that. But don't worry, I'll do my best not to over estimate you.

It's time for you to do some homework. Here is a primer on CONSERVATIVE opposition to the draft:

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/fe ... n-slavery/


Barry Goldwater
Ronald Reagan
Ron Paul
Russell Kirk

and there were many others.


As always, those of you from the radical far right are so limited in your intelligence, so unprincipled, so uninformed re historical truths, that it is just impossible to engage in a meaningful debate with people like you. Please, DO YOUR HOMEWORK before posting and showing the world how limited you are.

Read the information on the link. Thereafter, re-phrase your question and then I'll possibly answer it.

Useless to even engage with your histrionic hyperbolism. Here's a hint, spend a little less time in the many you forums you frequent and maybe find some other hobbies. Plenty of things to do up there in Lake Woebegone, I'm sure of it.

Joe

Welcome back Joe, I hope you stick around for awhile. That is not to say that i always agree with you but I respect all differences of opinions. Your opinion is unique.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:27 am

a fan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:33 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 8:29 pm I don't believe that there's an off ramp remotely palatable to Putin at present that doesn't reward his aggression, and that would be a huge mistake. He and his military are going to need to take many more losses before he's ready to turn tail, much less be subject to removal by his people...gonna take awhile, awful as that is.

Well, it's obviously just my opinion, but I think you're full on crispy-crackers if you think Putin is going to leave in defeat. Only chance of that happening is if he's taken out by some former KGB agent...poison or something. Otherwise, he's just going to get more and more aggressive with his targeting.

Otherwise, you gotta give him something. And again, imho, that something is pledged neutrality of Ukraine, and a denial of NATO. That's enough, I think.

Putin can go home claiming victory. And NO ONE will F with Ukraine anymore. And that deal costs NOTHING.

Yes, but Putin won't accept that at this point and likely won't until much deeper into this.

Did you read any of his speech yesterday?

A fourth Russian general has reportedly been killed.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky says another Russian general has been killed during fighting.
He didn't name the officer, but an adviser to Ukraine's interior ministry said Maj Gen Oleg Mityaev had been killed by the far-right Azov regiment.

Gen Mityaev was killed near Mariupol, Ukrainian media said.
He is the fourth general reportedly killed, leading some to ask why such senior members of the Russian military are so close to the front line.

Analysts believe that around 20 generals are leading Russian operations in Ukraine, meaning that if all the reported deaths are confirmed, one fifth of Russia's generals have been killed in action.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60767664

In addition, “conservative” U.S. intelligence estimates put the Russian military death toll at around 7,000 in only a few weeks of war … more than the combined total of U.S. deaths in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars over two decades.

WASHINGTON — In 36 days of fighting on Iwo Jima during World War II, nearly 7,000 Marines were killed. Now, 20 days after President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia invaded Ukraine, his military has already lost more soldiers, according to American intelligence estimates.

The conservative side of the estimate, at more than 7,000 Russian troop deaths, is greater than the number of American troops killed over 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan combined.

It is a staggering number amassed in just three weeks of fighting, American officials say, with implications for the combat effectiveness of Russian units, including soldiers in tank formations. Pentagon officials say a 10 percent casualty rate, including dead and wounded, for a single unit renders it unable to carry out combat-related tasks.

With more than 150,000 Russian troops now involved in the war in Ukraine, Russian casualties, when including the estimated 14,000 to 21,000 injured, are near that level. And the Russian military has also lost at least three generals in the fight, according to Ukrainian, NATO and Russian officials.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/p ... eaths.html

With Ukrainians showing no signs that they are about to give up, even with Russia committing horrendous war crimes, and the United States and NATO providing massive amounts of military assistance, the previously unthinkable may become the inevitable … a Russian military defeat in Ukraine.

In several months, Russia may not even be able to financially afford this atrocious war.

DocBarrister