MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:49 am
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2023 8:12 am
a fan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:55 pm
Given that....why should we be supplying these multi-round rifles to anyone? To what end? We might as well make Bows that fire four arrows at a time, if you ask me.
Those rifles that the "gun-grabbers" want off our streets are basically saying:
I have no skill with this gun, and not only am I going to miss, I don't care what else that I"m not aiming at gets hit.
Why isn't THIS part of the conversation for folks who take their shooting with any seriousness?
Just curious what your thoughts are, because it's baffled me.
A fair question that is deserving of a productive discourse. I can't say I can point to many examples of that happening! It basically comes down to personal choices and our personal liberty regarding making the choices that feel right to ourselves.
There is certainly a different mindset to someone with a revolver that holds 5-8 cartridges and someone with magazines (I won't go there on the standard vs. high capacity here). I have a real problem with what you allude to as "spray and pray" mindset, which today's law enforcement is being taught. If you fire a single shot, you magdump. The training required and screening for being a barista at Starbucks is more rigorous than that of many law enforcement agencies, especially local and county branches. I am not about defunding the police, but instead retraining the mindset regarding when and why a police involved shooting occurs. Deescalation training and alternative approaches to detaining a suspect would seem like public resources well spent. That video clip of some guy without legs in a wheelchair wielding a knife being mag dumped to death instead of detained almost seemed like some sort of fictional "gotcha" Saturday Night Live skit, it is so surreal.
Have a great day, gents. Off for a trail ride.
Enjoy the trail.
I'm not sure you addressed the question beyond law enforcement. The more relevant issue is why any Tom, Dick, Sally can obtain these weapons easily, store them unsecured, carry them wherever, whenever they want, use them without required training and for no purpose other than what, 'fun'?
I get it that "personal liberty" is the argument, but when does 'public safety' trump "personal liberty"? We regulate and restrict all sorts of "personal liberty" in a civilized society, why not these sorts of weapons?
I think the problem for many people is about numbers. What I'll share which I did in my lengthy post before is not intended to raise hackles, nor in my opinion make me deserving of censure along the lines of "JFC, you don't care schoolchildren are being slaughtered?". In terms of Tom, Dick and Sally, there are if we just parcel out AR-15 ownership 25,000,000 Americans, owning 44,000,000 rifles. And while some owners are stupid, and do some less than responsible stuff, the number of AR-15s used
criminally for committing mass murder atrocities total 50 to date in the annals of the approximately 200 Mass Public Shootings in America since 1966. As you have pointed out, there is a trend in the more recent say 20 years of more such rifles being utilized. As I have pointed out there is research that a notable factor of contagion/copycat correlates with this rise, along with new societal factors such as powerful prescription medicines, social changes, and other things. We may need to agree to disagree on the relative lethality of AR-15s versus the other handguns, shotguns and rifles of differing calibers and mechanical capabilities which have been utilized in the commission of these crimes. The article I had posted a link to regarding the AR's lethality confirms what most of us familiar with firearm ballistics know: AR-15 rounds trend toward the lower third-ish end of the power spectrum. Another way to say it is there are tons of OTHER non AR-15 firearms eminently capable of being deployed by monsters to commit horrific criminal atrocities, and they have been in 75% of Mass Public Shootings.
It's certainly been a banner week, with the NYT's ammo article Sunday and ghoulish WaPo article yesterday, for keeping the AR-15 in the crosshairs of anti-gun interests. What anyone who believes ballistic reality understands, the WaPo article could have just as easily been written and printed with posted photographs of "non AR-15 utilized" mass public shootings crime scenes, titled "Look at how non-AR-15 firearms can kill innocent people" and absolutely and of course the heart string tugging and soul sapping reality of the carnage would have been sickeningly similar and sad to any person with a heart, conscience and soul. Here is a commentary by a guy who has a very good podcast. He is pro 2A, but has guests on his show who are anti 2A and in favor of gun bans. He shows how someone can be mature, civil, thoughtful and respectful when "waging arguments". It's a rarity in any discourse - you name the topic - in American life today. His WaPo analysis:
https://thereload.com/analysis-the-wash ... er-photos/
Mass Public Shootings, statistically (again, don't shoot the messenger) are what statisticians might term "Black Swan Events" in terms of criminal homicide in America year in year out. The sensationalist headlines and amount of oxygen Mass Public Shootings "hog up" in press, political, social and lobbying interests arena, are wildly disproportionate to their occurrence. That sounds awful and insensitive to even posit and type, but brings up two valid questions: Why so much oxygen for Mass Public Shootings? Why so little oxygen for the other? The last published year of the FBI Criminal Justice Division (2019 - hey get going FBI and update!) there were 14,000 murders. 10,000 were by firearm. Breakdown by known type: 6,500 by handgun, 1,500 by bladed weapons, 600 by hands, fists, feet, 400 by hammers, and 364 by ALL rifles. With regard to Mass Public Shootings, this does not forgive the perpetrators nor does it help those whose lives are taken, and their loved ones and communities left to pick up pieces and try to move on from something which there is no healing from. It does point to at least the need for conversations regarding why so much oxygen and policy and keenly desired restrictions pointed in one place - where an overwhelming number of owners of a particular weapon type are law-abiding and have never committed a crime - and so little oxygen expended elsewhere where the vast majority of criminal homicidal violence, and violence with a firearm, are being perpetrated? When one side of an issue is wildly and vehemently "passionate" and "emotional" in what I perceive is an "oxygen disproportion" manner, it makes my personal "What is really going on here?" radar start to go beep, beep, beep. I realize even admitting that proves I'm that right wing wing nut conspiracy theory prepper you guys know I really am, but as I've said, I have a curious mind and like to try to think and research about things I'm keenly interested in. You should see my research on truffles!
So where am I endeavoring to end up? With a wish for a call for action strategy which focuses on the root causes and known toolkit which can, has, and will off ramp and intercept these monsters before they are able to pick up...ANYTHING, AR or otherwise. How making criminals out of 25,000,000 law abiding American adults is going to stop monsters from being monsters I do not know. A new documentary, behind a paywall, came out last week. The trailer can be watched on YouTube. Search for "Infringed Promo Parkland" should you care to take a peek. It features a father whose daughter was killed in one of the most egregious cases of "Why the actual F aren't we using the toolkit we have?" mass public shootings of all time.
He is shown popping off his AR-15, and he's angry about - the nearly 100 missed offramp/interception opportunities in the YEARS leading up to that gut wrenching act which took his daughter from him. Unconscionable failures by school administrators, law enforcement, and mental health professionals allowed Parkland to happen. And that same sad and maddening truth exists for the majority of Mass Public Shootings. Maine is already destined to become a sickeningly textbook example of failed intervention opportunities. The offramp toolkit sat gathering dust, while a monster who was telegraphing his intent went unchecked. Military, Law Enforcement, Social Services, Family. All knew. None acted. How many ding, ding, dinging early warning signs should it take until the vigorous utilization of the languishing Anti Mass Public Shooting toolkit becomes the number one focus in the consciousness of the public, policy makers, and press?
Whether I have addressed your question above, I don't know. I just can't get the math to work for a mass infringement when so few rifles are being utilized criminally, and so many tools exist which are gathering dust that could - via post incident assessment research - stop the majority of Mass Public Shootings before ANY caliber shot from ANY type of firearm is ever fired.
Should anyone be interested on "Contagion", this article is one I find to be well reasoned and enlightening:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5296697/