SCOTUS

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Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23271
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Farfromgeneva »

ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New London, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)

Edited as I truly did mean New London not New Haven, know that area fairly well, got married over in Waterford basically next door to Mystic.
Last edited by Farfromgeneva on Sun May 08, 2022 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23271
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Farfromgeneva »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26408
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23271
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26408
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23271
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
I realize it’s different but having read enough economic impact sturdier that never came close to delivering in reality as their made to the needs of the client I don’t trust the public value argument ever and it this case the property was being transferred to another private entity which was going reap benefits.

My grandfather had a 100ac farm in Savona NY he worked as a second job because that’s what he knew from his parents (was coroner for the Va hospital nearby as day job). They cut it in half more or less off the old exit 41 on Rte 17, now 86. Used to build another road and access point into Bath and the bigger municipal area from the rural areas in the 1950s or 60s so while that area is basically dead I know what a public good is. Contiguous land there has more value today and would even have more it NY adopted PA laws around gas drilling and that was the main inheritance for my dad and his three siblings who grew up upper lower or lower middle class when my grandfather passed. None of it really touched me financially when my father passed, helped my broke sister a little but between my CRE finance background and this matter I’ve paid a lot of attention to gift forces asset transfers over the years.

Know a guy who bought over a thousand row hosue in grubby Balt for pennies in the mid 2000s as well and did very well. It’s freebies.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26408
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

yes, public benefit can be quite overstated, and payment for any eminent domain transfer sometimes quite inadequate.

I'm not a fan of eminent domain, but I do see its value in limited situations.
User avatar
cradleandshoot
Posts: 14551
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32934
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

cradleandshoot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
Some States have springing bans that will make abortions illegal if R v W is overturned. Already baked. Nothing to do with the “will of the people”….it’s just like the VRA being undone….you can see how legislation has changed….pretty much all one direction and by one controlling party. It scores political points.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23271
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:51 am yes, public benefit can be quite overstated, and payment for any eminent domain transfer sometimes quite inadequate.

I'm not a fan of eminent domain, but I do see its value in limited situations.
Sure, highly limited.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 32934
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/ ... rom-itself

Hippocrates condemned abortion; Aristotle thought it less cruel than exposing unwanted infants to the elements. The West has been arguing about this hard moral problem for over 2,000 years. Most Western democracies have found a compromise between the liberal position, held by this newspaper, that the state should not control women’s bodies; and the most conservative position, that any abortion is murder. In Australia, Britain, Canada, France, Germany and Japan, legislatures have allowed abortion early in pregnancy and made it illegal later. Most Americans agree with that, but their country stands apart.

A leaked draft of a majority opinion from America’s Supreme Court obtained by Politico, a news organisation, suggests that the court will overturn Roe v Wade, the 50-year-old decision that makes abortion legal until the fetus becomes viable. If so, state law would take precedence. Most abortions look set to become illegal in half of states; some bans would include cases of rape or incest. Better-off women can take time off work and travel to legal clinics, so the burden would fall mainly on poorer women. Banning abortion would increase the number of pregnancy-related deaths, by over 20%, according to one study.

Perhaps the judges will change their mind or temper their arguments before the final opinion is issued. Even so, with a 6-3 conservative majority, not the 5-4 split that has held for the past half-century, the court is poised to reopen some of the most contentious questions in American public life. In this, it risks damaging itself and accelerating the division of the country into two mutually hostile blocs.

The outsize power wielded by the court in 2022 derives from a political system that struggles to strike compromises. Lining up a majority in the House, 60 votes in the Senate (to override a filibuster) and a presidential signature is too hard. It is easier for politicians to fundraise off controversy rather than solve problems. Time and again on the thorniest questions—carbon-dioxide emissions, gay marriage, guns, abortion—Congress has failed to reflect public opinion.

By their dereliction, legislators dump big decisions on the justices. As a result Supreme Court confirmations have become trials of strength where the Senate majority holds sway. Donald Trump, who ran on a promise to pick judges explicitly to overturn Roe, further dissolved the idea of judicial independence. All this politicking heaps intolerable pressure on the court.

Conservative Americans, who may not have liked Mr Trump but admire his judges, may retort: so what? Liberals, they argue, broke the court in the 1950s and 1960s, pursuing a programme they could not get past Congress. Roe was shoddily argued and a correction is long overdue. Even if most Americans favour a compromise between a libertarian view and the belief that life begins at conception, judges are supposed to rule on the law, they say, not bend to public opinion.

That is surely right. However, the solution to one activist court 70 years ago is not another activist court today. When the legislature cannot pass laws on the big questions of the age, the courts bear a special responsibility, lest justice itself is poisoned. The court must indeed feel that it can go against public opinion. But in whatever it does it should weigh tradition and precedent and exercise restraint. If the justices take it upon themselves to cut through legislative knots, using their power maximally, they will transform themselves into the lifelong members of an all-powerful unelected third chamber.

Three bad outcomes may follow. The justices might find their judgments ignored. An America where the rule of law was weakened would be less free and more dysfunctional. If the court loses its ability to be the decider of last resort, the role asked of it in the presidential election in 2000—and again in 2020—it could lose its ability to settle disputes peacefully.

Second, if in the name of conservatism the justices start tearing up precedents that have stood for half a century, there will be growing political pressure to remake the court. Packing it is a terrible idea, and currently a fringe position in the Democratic Party. But if the court swings hard to the right, every Democratic presidential candidate in 2024 will be asked what they would do to tame a body in which a third of the justices were nominated and confirmed by a president and senators who represented a minority of Americans. Such proposals could be at issue even while the court had to rule on the outcome of the vote.

Third, America’s divisions into red and blue camps would deepen. The United States is a federal system where states enjoy discretion to write many of their own laws. But unlike the European Union it is also a nation. If state laws became so divergent that nobody in California could own a gun and gay people in Texas could not marry, that would lead to a trampling of the rights of minorities in those states. The only solution would be to move. But an America where almost everyone in one state was Republican and almost everyone in a neighbouring state was Democratic could hardly be expected to come together in any national endeavour. States bound in such an arrangement would hardly be united at all.

The ideal way to avoid this would be for the legislature to rediscover the art of compromise, so that the court could act as the arbiter it was meant to be. Political questions are best solved by politicians, not judges. That possibility looks awfully distant today, but Ireland managed to find a compromise on abortion by creating a citizens’ assembly which issued recommendations to the government. If only America could rediscover the spirit of institutional innovation and participatory democracy, some of the questions that now seem untouchable could be opened.

Until then the court should save itself by acting with restraint. It should also seek to bolster its own legitimacy. Congress is debating an ethics code, prompted in part by the discovery that Clarence Thomas’s wife, a Republican activist, was angling to overturn the election result. Rather than wait, the justices should impose a code on themselves. And, while they are at it, they should announce term limits. Some new members of the court could still be around in 2050. That is asking a lot of them, but unless justices act wisely now, the court will be a different place by then—and America a different country.
“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Good article, TLD; thanks for posting it.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
Some States have springing bans that will make abortions illegal if R v W is overturned. Already baked. Nothing to do with the “will of the people”….it’s just like the VRA being undone….you can see how legislation has changed….pretty much all one direction and by one controlling party. It scores political points.
cradle:

Nearly half of the states, all red majorities, have already passed some form of greater restriction on access to abortion, and some of those which had only somewhat reduced are scrambling now to pass legislation that competes for the most draconian position. This includes not simply 'banning' but rather criminalizing abortions, including making anyone, the woman, the doctor, the family member, the friend...a criminal...anyone involved in any way, even simply comforting the woman becomes criminal. Moreover, some are making it criminal to go out of state to do so...even to the point of making someone a criminal if they merely conceived during a stay over in the state while traveling but then returned to their home only to learn of the pregnancy. Even to the point of deputizing their own citizens, one's neighbors to use the state courts to sue their neighbor whom they suspect, enabling them to pursue "discovery" of the most private of health concerns...

yup, millions of women, especially those without the substantial economic means and freedom to travel out of state, will find it nearly impossible to have an abortion...in some situations despite rape or incest.

Minority and individual rights be damned.

Gilead.

BTW, the Bible doesn't mention abortion at all. Bans all sorts of things, but not abortion.
jhu72
Posts: 14153
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by jhu72 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:33 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
Some States have springing bans that will make abortions illegal if R v W is overturned. Already baked. Nothing to do with the “will of the people”….it’s just like the VRA being undone….you can see how legislation has changed….pretty much all one direction and by one controlling party. It scores political points.
cradle:

Nearly half of the states, all red majorities, have already passed some form of greater restriction on access to abortion, and some of those which had only somewhat reduced are scrambling now to pass legislation that competes for the most draconian position. This includes not simply 'banning' but rather criminalizing abortions, including making anyone, the woman, the doctor, the family member, the friend...a criminal...anyone involved in any way, even simply comforting the woman becomes criminal. Moreover, some are making it criminal to go out of state to do so...even to the point of making someone a criminal if they merely conceived during a stay over in the state while traveling but then returned to their home only to learn of the pregnancy. Even to the point of deputizing their own citizens, one's neighbors to use the state courts to sue their neighbor whom they suspect, enabling them to pursue "discovery" of the most private of health concerns...

yup, millions of women, especially those without the substantial economic means and freedom to travel out of state, will find it nearly impossible to have an abortion...in some situations despite rape or incest.

Minority and individual rights be damned.

Gilead.

BTW, the Bible doesn't mention abortion at all. Bans all sorts of things, but not abortion.
... but what would Patton do?
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ggait
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by ggait »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:10 pm Good article, TLD; thanks for posting it.
Definitely a good take. The fundamental reason why reason SCOTUS is so messed up is because too many hard cases get dumped on them because Congress is non-functional. And so stacking the Court becomes so important. Much more important than it should be.

The Shelby/VRA case was a very dumb decision and highly damaging to the country. But it really should not have mattered that much. CJ Roberts, naively, thought that Congress would promptly make some changes to the VRA and re-enact/extend it. As Congress had done multiple times before.

It has been 9 years, and there's no Congressional action in sight. I really doubt that Roberts would write that same opinion today.
Boycott stupid. If you ignore the gator troll, eventually he'll just go back under his bridge.
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cradleandshoot
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:33 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
Some States have springing bans that will make abortions illegal if R v W is overturned. Already baked. Nothing to do with the “will of the people”….it’s just like the VRA being undone….you can see how legislation has changed….pretty much all one direction and by one controlling party. It scores political points.
cradle:

Nearly half of the states, all red majorities, have already passed some form of greater restriction on access to abortion, and some of those which had only somewhat reduced are scrambling now to pass legislation that competes for the most draconian position. This includes not simply 'banning' but rather criminalizing abortions, including making anyone, the woman, the doctor, the family member, the friend...a criminal...anyone involved in any way, even simply comforting the woman becomes criminal. Moreover, some are making it criminal to go out of state to do so...even to the point of making someone a criminal if they merely conceived during a stay over in the state while traveling but then returned to their home only to learn of the pregnancy. Even to the point of deputizing their own citizens, one's neighbors to use the state courts to sue their neighbor whom they suspect, enabling them to pursue "discovery" of the most private of health concerns...

yup, millions of women, especially those without the substantial economic means and freedom to travel out of state, will find it nearly impossible to have an abortion...in some situations despite rape or incest.

Minority and individual rights be damned.

Gilead.

BTW, the Bible doesn't mention abortion at all. Bans all sorts of things, but not abortion.
those would be "millions" of women who can also vote. What your doing is advocating fear mongering. If they live in a red state and want to protect their right to an abortion.. go out and vote. There is a reason for the saying there is strength in numbers. If "millions" of womens reproductive rights are being threatened, then millions of women voting in red states will change that. You don't seem to be very accepting of the fact that the people in each state should have the power to decide this issue themselves. IMO that is how a representative republic should work, the people get to decide who represents them and their wishes. This is how IMO the SCOTUS fouled this up in 1973. Justice Rehnquist tried to explain this in his dissent. The SCOTUS bounces cases back to the states to figure out all of the time. They chose not to do so in R v W. Today those chickens may be coming home to roost. It is an old cliche but it is still true... there is no right way to do a wrong thing. FTR, this probably will not be the last SCOTUS decision to be over ruled by a SCOTUS with a different political point of view. I don't think for a single minute that a SCOTUS with a more progressive majority will not have a few axes to grind with decisions they disagree with. So much for the concept of stare decisis, that ship has sailed.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
User avatar
MDlaxfan76
Posts: 26408
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:56 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:33 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
Some States have springing bans that will make abortions illegal if R v W is overturned. Already baked. Nothing to do with the “will of the people”….it’s just like the VRA being undone….you can see how legislation has changed….pretty much all one direction and by one controlling party. It scores political points.
cradle:

Nearly half of the states, all red majorities, have already passed some form of greater restriction on access to abortion, and some of those which had only somewhat reduced are scrambling now to pass legislation that competes for the most draconian position. This includes not simply 'banning' but rather criminalizing abortions, including making anyone, the woman, the doctor, the family member, the friend...a criminal...anyone involved in any way, even simply comforting the woman becomes criminal. Moreover, some are making it criminal to go out of state to do so...even to the point of making someone a criminal if they merely conceived during a stay over in the state while traveling but then returned to their home only to learn of the pregnancy. Even to the point of deputizing their own citizens, one's neighbors to use the state courts to sue their neighbor whom they suspect, enabling them to pursue "discovery" of the most private of health concerns...

yup, millions of women, especially those without the substantial economic means and freedom to travel out of state, will find it nearly impossible to have an abortion...in some situations despite rape or incest.

Minority and individual rights be damned.

Gilead.

BTW, the Bible doesn't mention abortion at all. Bans all sorts of things, but not abortion.
those would be "millions" of women who can also vote. What your doing is advocating fear mongering. If they live in a red state and want to protect their right to an abortion.. go out and vote. There is a reason for the saying there is strength in numbers. If "millions" of womens reproductive rights are being threatened, then millions of women voting in red states will change that. You don't seem to be very accepting of the fact that the people in each state should have the power to decide this issue themselves. IMO that is how a representative republic should work, the people get to decide who represents them and their wishes. This is how IMO the SCOTUS fouled this up in 1973. Justice Rehnquist tried to explain this in his dissent. The SCOTUS bounces cases back to the states to figure out all of the time. They chose not to do so in R v W. Today those chickens may be coming home to roost. It is an old cliche but it is still true... there is no right way to do a wrong thing. FTR, this probably will not be the last SCOTUS decision to be over ruled by a SCOTUS with a different political point of view. I don't think for a single minute that a SCOTUS with a more progressive majority will not have a few axes to grind with decisions they disagree with. So much for the concept of stare decisis, that ship has sailed.
I repeat, Gilead.
Rule of the mob, in this case a religious mob and those who benefit from the rancor caused.
Peter Brown
Posts: 12878
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:19 am

Re: SCOTUS

Post by Peter Brown »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:38 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 6:56 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:33 pm
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:06 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 10:15 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:43 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 8:46 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:19 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:18 pm
ggait wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:45 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: ↑Sun May 08, 2022 10:32 am
How old is Citizens?

It’s long but only 1/3 of the way in they point out that’s it’s also a function of social norms. Has citizens created more social stability? Is it half a century old with a subsequent supporting decision 20 years later?
Dems need to stop whining about stare decisis. Just get off the couch and go vote already.

My Mount Rushmore for badly decided cases in my lifetime are Roe, Citizens, Heller, and Shelby County. Shelby, IMO, is the worst and the most damaging for our country.

I'd be thrilled if they all get overturned and stay that way.
Didn’t the New Haven, CT eminent domain case that was a pretty egregious state taking go to SCOTUS? Don’t recall the details but recall it feeling like a miscarriage of justice but maybe it’s been too long and too many foreign substances to my brain.

But as I stated just the other day I never felt like the idea of precedents were all that important and overrated. But I do like the concept of stability in rule of law and the legal system in the sense of muting regulatory and civil volatility for citizens on a day to day basis. That was what I was focusing on from SCs post of the discussion (isn’t Kara swisher a Silicon Valley tech reporter?)
Found it real quick. The plaintiff was Kelo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v. ... New_London
re precedents, this suggests that it didn't overturn a precedent, it extended.

Kelo v. City of New London did not establish entirely new law concerning eminent domain. Although the decision was controversial, it was not the first time "public use" had been interpreted by the Supreme Court as "public purpose." In the majority opinion, Justice Stevens wrote the "Court long ago rejected any literal requirement that condemned property be put into use for the general public" (545 U.S. 469). Thus precedent played an important role in the 5–4 decision of the Supreme Court. The Fifth Amendment was interpreted the same way as in Midkiff (467 U.S. 229) and other earlier eminent domain cases.

Since then, 45, instead of 7, states modified their state laws to limit usages of eminent domain.
I didn’t mean overturning precedent was curious more on the decision under the comments of “badly decided cases”.

I had followed that one a little a while back and it was antithetical to private property rights to me. Apparently the whole thing blew up after Pfizer shut down their Groton campus post merger w Wyeth and the developers couldn’t get funding (the last couple of years which outside of 4-6 Covid months was about as easy as anything for any viable project). A state SCOTUS judge who ruled against homeowners apologized tot jen for their ruling, everyone knew that was a bad move by the people in power in New London.

I should add that in the context of overturning precedent by confirming eminent domain the prior case it upheld was a good while earlier so consistent with the idea of time since prior review and stability of rule of law was consistent.
it definitely stirred the public against such takings!

Not so sure it was 'badly decided' though, given that the takings clause and eminent domain had the history it does. They trump private property rights, as long as there's equitable compensation. But, of course, what's fair in one person's eyes is not always what's fair to another. And it certainly shouldn't just be whatever the bureaucrat says...so, there's a process for the courts, not the bureaucrats or politicians, to decide if there's a dispute.

But the public sentiment, in 45 states, has certainly been that the eminent domain provisions granting adverse power to local jurisdictions and states should be curtailed somewhat, at the state and local level, protecting the individual more...not that such wouldn't be federally constitutional, but simply against the public's democratically expressed wishes.

In abortion, we have the Supreme Court deciding to overrule the individual's rights they'd previously found to be constitutional, in multiple precedents, and relied upon by many millions of women for 5 decades...simply by declaring that no such rights of the individual ever existed...so, granting the state the authority to take away these rights entirely...with no 'compensation' at all.
If the SCOTUS over rules R v W abortion will not become illegal. It will be bounced back for each and every one of our 50 states to decide. That is WHAT should have been done 50 years ago. That is the appropriate measure Justice Rehnquist said in his dissent. Justice delayed is not justice denied. NYS, where I live has already chosen to protect a woman's right to an abortion and is considering a state amendment that protects it... AS A STATE RIGHT. In the end, after all of the whining and b****ing nothing will change except that the abortion rights issue will be decided by the people of each state. Why or how is that a problem?? We can't trust the people to decide this issue themselves??
Some States have springing bans that will make abortions illegal if R v W is overturned. Already baked. Nothing to do with the “will of the people”….it’s just like the VRA being undone….you can see how legislation has changed….pretty much all one direction and by one controlling party. It scores political points.
cradle:

Nearly half of the states, all red majorities, have already passed some form of greater restriction on access to abortion, and some of those which had only somewhat reduced are scrambling now to pass legislation that competes for the most draconian position. This includes not simply 'banning' but rather criminalizing abortions, including making anyone, the woman, the doctor, the family member, the friend...a criminal...anyone involved in any way, even simply comforting the woman becomes criminal. Moreover, some are making it criminal to go out of state to do so...even to the point of making someone a criminal if they merely conceived during a stay over in the state while traveling but then returned to their home only to learn of the pregnancy. Even to the point of deputizing their own citizens, one's neighbors to use the state courts to sue their neighbor whom they suspect, enabling them to pursue "discovery" of the most private of health concerns...

yup, millions of women, especially those without the substantial economic means and freedom to travel out of state, will find it nearly impossible to have an abortion...in some situations despite rape or incest.

Minority and individual rights be damned.

Gilead.

BTW, the Bible doesn't mention abortion at all. Bans all sorts of things, but not abortion.
those would be "millions" of women who can also vote. What your doing is advocating fear mongering. If they live in a red state and want to protect their right to an abortion.. go out and vote. There is a reason for the saying there is strength in numbers. If "millions" of womens reproductive rights are being threatened, then millions of women voting in red states will change that. You don't seem to be very accepting of the fact that the people in each state should have the power to decide this issue themselves. IMO that is how a representative republic should work, the people get to decide who represents them and their wishes. This is how IMO the SCOTUS fouled this up in 1973. Justice Rehnquist tried to explain this in his dissent. The SCOTUS bounces cases back to the states to figure out all of the time. They chose not to do so in R v W. Today those chickens may be coming home to roost. It is an old cliche but it is still true... there is no right way to do a wrong thing. FTR, this probably will not be the last SCOTUS decision to be over ruled by a SCOTUS with a different political point of view. I don't think for a single minute that a SCOTUS with a more progressive majority will not have a few axes to grind with decisions they disagree with. So much for the concept of stare decisis, that ship has sailed.
I repeat, Gilead.
Rule of the mob, in this case a religious mob and those who benefit from the rancor caused.



When democracy rules against you, it’s ‘the rule of the mob’.

When democracy rules for you, the voters got it right.


:roll: :roll: Amazing stuff, folks.
jhu72
Posts: 14153
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:52 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by jhu72 »

Right Wing Hypocrisy Over Abortion Civility

Image STAND AGAINST FASCISM
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cradleandshoot
Posts: 14551
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/handm ... 602db52741

Anyone else notice there were more MSM people covering these idiots than there were idiots?? The one dumbass lady was not even aware ACB has given birth to 5 children. Anyone else notice the dumbass ladies were all wearing masks and the MSM groupies were not?? ;)
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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