Re: The Politics of National Security
Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:04 am
Same Party, Different House
https://fanlax.com/forum/
If that's accurate, it's clear that either Capt Crozier or RAdm Baker had to go. They could not function together. Modly chose Crozier to go.
Know it all DOC.....DocBarrister wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:42 am Sadly, a sailor from the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died from coronavirus. Nearly 600 others are infected.
BREAKING: A sailor assigned to the USS Theodore Roosevelt died of complications from the novel coronavirus, the Navy said. There have been at least 585 confirmed infections among the crew of the ship, whose commander was removed after raising alarm about the Navy’s handling of the outbreak.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... test-news/
We can end the debate now. Capt. Crozier did the right thing. Even a few more days delay and we could have been looking at catastrophic casualties.
DocBarrister
I simply read what they said in the press conference, Salty.old salt wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:56 pmYou have no basis for those assertions. It's pure speculation on your part. You have no idea what efforts were underway.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:17 pm Very few in this saga in various positions of actual authority acted as swiftly as they should have, in retrospect. The degree of the slow responses, at various levels, however does very considerably. From simply too slow, to downright grossly slow.
In this matter, seems to me that they listened to the captain once he sent up the 'flare'. As they should have. Should they have reacted more swiftly from the outset? sure, but I'd bet they thought they were doing enough, fast enough. This most likely wasn't some sort of cover-up or denial of reality.
I'm willing to wait for the investigation to learn what the plans & preparations were before Crozier's email.
Listen to SecDef Esper @ 7:00 & 8:45 where he refutes your false narrative : https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/202 ... r-full.cnn
You spouted the same unfounded opinion about the "fiddling" in getting the Comfort underway.
We later learned that the DoN had a plan in place to expedite the preps to get underway & did just that as soon as they got the go signal.
They got to NYC before the city was prepared to host them or use their capabilities.
I'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.
That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.
It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.
My cousin is 61, not like 28. Lives in York Pa has five kids of his own and raised on that was the daughter of an ex girlfriend who was a dangerous alcoholic. Also started a small non profit for displaced veterans in his area (York PA). Great human being, also has a mullet and runs a commercial welding shop (business) and works from 5am to 4-5pm, owns two rental houses and does ok overall. But I know he was heck around when he enlisted, college wasn’t even a thought back then eventually got an AA. He was in San Diego for his service not sure if he finished two years before being blown out. He never served anywhere hot and likely wouldn’t of back then unless the Cold War got hot.LandM wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:59 pm Far/MD - last post here,
Far if you think your relative is blowing smoke up skirts, ask him a few questions, you will find out pretty quickly if he claims he did or is what he claims. Second it is not uncommon for the lower pay-grade enlisted folks to have 2nd jobs. The reality is they do not get paid allot of money. Selling weed now that is a no, no. Finally if your relative is embellishing he will get called on it eventually. I have seen embellishment on resumes and in job interviews in the business world. Unfortunately that happens but I like to think most people are good and honorable people.
MD,
You talk about leadership, battle and taking care of his men. I applaud that. No one is arguing that. What has been debated (the lens) is the coc and what was the mission. That is the forest, you are looking at a big redwood but it is still a tree. There is was no reason why classified information went out in an unsecured setting nor the coc was not followed nor the SF Chronicle got wind of this. He is worried about his crew. But his ship is an invaluable asset both as a deterrent and for air power and probably off the top of my head put about 20,000 sailors, soldiers, marines and airmen in jeopardy. The Chinese and Russians (they share with the Iranians) have tin cans flying in geo-orbit, seeing what is going on, but what was going on the ship and in the group has now been publicly announced. There were better ways to communicate and handle the situation, slip over to Guam and keep them guessing and the military is like any bureaucracy, it does not move at the speed of light. On top of that the whole left has to be filled and you have all kinds of folks at the Pentagon, NORAD, and a few others creating action plans. That is what people are thinking about, it is not just the crew. IMHO 99% of people who had their hands in this cared about the crew. As to Trump, every thread out here is is nothing but rants on the guy. I did not vote for him and believe many of the things people have written about him but based on just your rants, you should be thanking Modley because he tried keeping Trump OUT of the Navy's business. Finally, again your observation about my feelings on the virus are totally misplaced.
Enjoy Easter
Man, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:56 pmI'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.
That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.
It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.
If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.
Are you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pmMan, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:56 pmI'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.
That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.
It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.
If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.
If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.
However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.
That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.
On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.
Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.
Tweets and all?
You looked confused as always. It ain't that hard to figure out skippy. You need to ask your brother in law in the basement.
I really don't know (nor do you) whether Modly was letting his perceptions about Trump's dismissiveness about COVID-19 impact his judgment as to urgency. Maybe, maybe not. Clearly Crozier thought the process was moving too slowly, not urgently enough. Enough so that he sent up the 'flare'.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:19 pmAre you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pmMan, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:56 pmI'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.
That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.
It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.
If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.
If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.
However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.
That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.
On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.
Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.
Tweets and all?
Sounds like Gen Keane is telling us the same you have been telling us OS. Captain Crozier wrote this letter knowing it was going to possibly end his naval career. i am sure that there are folks at CNN willing to pay him a kings ransom to become their expert military analyst. Captain Crozier will land on his feet and do just fine when this is all said and done.
Unless your ship is sinking there is no need for the flares is there? Captain Crozier had not even seen the iceberg yet before he decided to send up the flares. For the record IMO Modly was a pure weed. He should have and could have waited for a report from the navy brass. i was not aware of his flight to and idiotic speech to the crew of the TR. What a dumb ass move that was.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:58 pmI really don't know (nor do you) whether Modly was letting his perceptions about Trump's dismissiveness about COVID-19 impact his judgment as to urgency. Maybe, maybe not. Clearly Crozier thought the process was moving too slowly, not urgently enough. Enough so that he sent up the 'flare'.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:19 pmAre you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pmMan, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:56 pmI'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.
That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.
It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.
If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.
If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.
However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.
That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.
On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.
Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.
Tweets and all?
What we do know about Modly's mindset is what he subsequently admitted to Ignatius and then his statements to the crew. Beyond that is supposition about the possible.
OK. You admit you don't know if Trump influenced the urgency with which Modly was getting help to the TR, just that Trump influenced Modly's decision to relieve Crozier. Is that accurate ?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:58 pmI really don't know (nor do you) whether Modly was letting his perceptions about Trump's dismissiveness about COVID-19 impact his judgment as to urgency. Maybe, maybe not. Clearly Crozier thought the process was moving too slowly, not urgently enough. Enough so that he sent up the 'flare'.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:19 pmAre you asserting that Modly, or anyone else in the CoC, was " foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it " because they were concerned about Trump ? Yes or No ?MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pmMan, you just can't stand to have me agree with you on something...I really wish you would read what I write with some consideration that I might well agree on at least some aspects.old salt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:56 pmI'm grinding because you're making sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command, without basis.MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am Not sure why you are grinding on this so hard, I was simply comparing Crozier and Modly as leaders others would want to follow, including in the most dangerous and challenging of situations. Not a close call in my book.
That said, some have actively attempted to slow the response, whether out of stupidity or venality.
It doesn't surprise me that some in the Navy, like everywhere else in our society, would have been taking their cues from the POTUS. And those cues were disastrously wrong.
If anyone was influenced by Trump, it would only have been Modly & he wold have been acting to keep Trump out of the process.
SecDef, CNO & CJCS recommended waiting for the investigation but they backed Modly if he had lost confidence in one of his carrier COs.
Modly & Crozier occupy different levels in the CoC. One's an operational leader, the other's a organizational leader. Crozier had a lot less to be concerned with than Modly. Crozier was concerned with one crew, Modly - the entire Navy. It's easy to play to the crew in Crozier's position.
I doubt that anyone in the CoC was thinking they needed to keep the crew onboard or were slow getting help to the TR because of Trump.
If the sailor who died was the one found unresponsive in his room & there was a significant delay in getting him medical help, it calls into question the rush to isolate so much of the crew. If they're only checked twice a day, he could have gone 12 hrs or longer without a status check.
If I made any 'sweeping assertions about the entire chain of command" (which I did not) it was leaning to the positive that lots of folks cared, wanted to do the right thing.
However the cues from above, outside the military, and apparently in Modley's mind were far less urgent.
That's where the foot dragging or dithering or fiddling or whatever someone wants to call it appears to have been happening. The military folks appear to have been attempting to do their jobs, albeit almost no one in authority (and I mean outside the military) was responding to the virus sufficiently urgently. As I said, some of this was just slow, some was grossly slow. It does matter.
On Modly, it's just not a close call, IMO.
He was taking his cues from above.
He got embarrassed and worried about Trump.
He admitted as much to Ignatius on the latter, the embarrassment is my reading into it.
Now, whether this actually came down from the White House through Esper to Modly, I dunno, but as far as you guys are concerned, whatever the Commander in Chief says, it's an order. And orders must be followed. Right away.
Tweets and all?
What we do know about Modly's mindset is what he subsequently admitted to Ignatius and then his statements to the crew. Beyond that is supposition about the possible.