Orange Duce

[Typical Lax Dad]

You both keep expanding the conversation to take us away from the topic Mr. Owens "SPECIFICALLY" speaks of...which is Urban cities and black people. A significant difference with both you and TLD's argument is there are much fewer places of employment in WV, Alabama, Mississippi, East Tennesee, Kentucky, Missouri.Getting people of the gov't teet in those states means curtains for them. Which is why we often see those states throw so much pork in bills. Why places like SC fight so hard for gov't contracted industrial/manufacturing plants....an attempt to bring the work to them, as opposed to the work being their back yard for urban locales.

Thanks for the engaging conversation. Gotta go & pick up my MID and spend a few hours with him before he is off again.

People on the Govt’s teet where the jobs are, are on and off. Look at the stats. They get off because they have a change to gain employment. All those kids you see on bikes in Baltimore year after year are not the same kids every year. Some are, MOST, aren’t. But no doubt, it’s mostly poor people, because that’s where poor people live. Baltimore isn’t going to become Bethesda anytime soon...

[Typical Lax Dad]

You both keep expanding the conversation to take us away from the topic Mr. Owens "SPECIFICALLY" speaks of...which is Urban cities and black people.

Of course I am. He is trying to make an argument that government assistance is why black people in inner cities are not moving forward.

He's wrong. And I told you why. If you believe that government assistance is the problem, focus on that variable.

Hell, if you prefer, pull all government assistance from non-black citizens in inner cities.

What you and Mr. Owens thinks will happen is: those citizens will flourish as a result of having no government help, right? Do I have that straight? I'd love to give that a go, and watch my taxes plummet.

A significant difference with both you and TLD's argument is there are much fewer places of employment in WV, Alabama, Mississippi, East Tennesee, Kentucky, Missouri.Getting people of the gov't teet in those states means curtains for them. Which is why we often see those states throw so much pork in bills. Why places like SC fight so hard for gov't contracted industrial/manufacturing plants....an attempt to bring the work to them, as opposed to the work being their back yard for urban locales.

That's absurd. So your suggestion is: all out government subsidies for those in rural America, and the unfettered F*** you that is the free market for those in cities?

I will admit that this is the unspoken pitch for the Republican party. Socialism for me, and free market for you.

But that's YOUR pitch? Nice cushy subsidized life for whites in rural America, and blacks in Baltimore get to compete with Chinese factory workers for jobs?

Yeah, I'm gonna pass on that.

Thanks for the engaging conversation.

Always enjoy it! Thanks to you, too.

Mr. Owens is a fool..... if football had not been integrated, nobody would care what he had to say today. Too stupid to see the connection. People who want to make sure the government protects his rights for an equal opportunity were hamstrung by “Dems”.

[MDlaxfan76]

Much like all those cities run by deploarables in SanFran, Chicago, DC. NYC, etc, etc. Burgess Owens can explain it for us all.

The ol' Rush/Hannity game of hoping people are so dumb that they conflate the Dem party of pre-1950 with liberals.

Show of hands: who thinks that liberals were the group behind things like segregation? And who thinks that conservatives were the group behind things like segregation?

Either Burgess Owens is too stupid to understand this....or he gets it, and hopes the viewers are too stupid to understand this. Pick one.



More to the point: what, exactly, are conservatives trying to conserve? Take your time and think about it.

The topic of this thread within the thread was identifying and name calling those that support Trump as "deplorables" (deserving strong condemnation and shockingly bad in quality)The point of his story and my post is not pre-1950 segregation, it is the ongoing and current state of affair for cities run by D's for umpteen years. Who can also be labeled, by definition as deplorable,

Hmmm, I didn't understand that you were just posting about another "deplorable" knucklehead saying dumb, right-wing things.

He's the one attacking the current Democratic Party for the segregationist past. It's a dumb argument. One of several misguided arguments he makes. The segregationists and their children switched to the GOP during the late 60's, 70's, and 80's.

I do think there are "deplorable" people within cities who are out for their own power and wealth rather than the benefit of the people they serve. Many of these are Democrats. Some are African Americans. One party domination breeds corruption. I also think that racist redlining (and even worse) are the progenitors of persistent poverty in cities. But not the only factors.

If you want to validly critique the Dem party and "liberal" policies, it's fair to suggest that no matter how well-intentioned an intervention may be, it often has unforeseen, unintended consequences.

A true 'conservative', (as distinguished from a right-wing racist hater), wants to go slow in intervening in social constructs so as to avoid such unintended consequences. They put more, though not total, weight in the 'wisdom' of historical norms and values. (Interestingly, from an historical perspective, this also meant a confidence in governmental institutions, federal power etc, contrasted with the 'liberal' emphasis on individual rights and the prevention of the government abridging such rights, a preference for distributed power)

There is a very valid tension between the 'liberal' or 'progressive', (as distinguished from the radical anarchist), who put more weight on action now to address the evident ills of society, and the 'conservative' who simply wishes to take care in the process not to disrupt positive aspects of society.

We want this tension. Both emphases are important.

But let's be clear, the Trumpist is not in the slightest 'conservative'. Trumpism has co-opted the GOP, leaving no room for actual 'conservative' views and people.

Trump spoke to some themes initially appealing to conservatives, ala MAGA, but it was quickly revealed to be based in the most bigoted aspects of America's past and played to the most immediate fears of poor, uneducated white America. Mexicans as rapists. Muslims as terrorists. Democrats as enemies, not partners in democracy. The free press as Enemies of the State.

Trumpism is far more akin to Fascism than any other ideology. It is focused on immediate 'disruption' of the status quo, it is authoritarian in nature with power concentrated only in the hands of loyalists, it attacks democratic norms, rules, and constitutional organization and protections, it baldfacedly utilizes 'propaganda' (outright lies), it demonizes the "Other"... etc, etc.

That's not traditional conservatism. It's fascist. It's corrupt.

I agree with most of your post. What I do not agree with is your comment in red. There is no need to go slow or worry about unintended consequences if the change is in favor of making lives better, helping to pull them up and NOT enabling continued unfavorable behaviors. Quite often the best policy is to simply make the change and then deal with the changes that take place....IF the goal is making lives better. Will there be collateral damage? heck yea. People need pivot points in their lives in order to make significant change...be it rock bottom in addition, infidelity, spending habits, etc,etc.

We can go back and forth on ideas all day long. Pain and despair are often the root of change that cause those pivot points. And from my viewpoint, those in the urban cities chose a path to sulk and work the system because those social policies allowed a status quo of low income mediocrity that got them hooked. Mayor Berry in DC was the master at this, he did do his best to find work by creating jobs, but he did have the luxury of being in Washington DC where work was often plentiful and every member in the gov't was privy to their surroundings.

I believe Mr. Owens speaks the truth about the above mentioned topic at hand, and frankly the truth hurts but is needed in order heal and move on.

I wasn't arguing in favor of conservative vs liberal. I was simply saying that rapid change is not conservative.

I think Owens may well speak some "truth", but he's so full of right wing nonsense, much of it really, really ignorant and flat out false, that what he has to say that may reasonable is corrupted by the partisan hate of Democrats.

[OCanada]

The reality is people are moving to the cities because that is where the jobs are.

The reality is states like AL, MS, LA etc are failed economies that are highly dependent on federal transfer payments of all kinds. 50% of total revenues in Mississippi are federal government in origin and come courtesy of the state’s that are the economic engines of the country like N.Y., CA, NJ, MA, MD etc. The net users of federal taxes don’t invest enough in their own future but are more than happy to leach off states that do. They are dependencies. Dependent on things like the DOD budget to provide jobs.

There ability to compete for jobs is highly dependent on making sure their citizens don’t have a high standard of living because they compete for the Boeing’s of the world on the promise of low labor costs.

They are not desirable places to locate the businesses of the future for the most part. Meanwhile their failures are a drag on GDP, economic mobility, and the middle class or what is left of it

[Typical Lax Dad]

The reality is people are moving to the cities because that is where the jobs are.

The reality is states like AL, MS, LA etc are failed economies that are highly dependent on federal transfer payments of all kinds. 50% of total revenues in Mississippi are federal government in origin and come courtesy of the state’s that are the economic engines of the country like N.Y., CA, NJ, MA, MD etc. The net users of federal taxes don’t invest enough in their own future but are more than happy to leach off states that do. They are dependencies. Dependent on things like the DOD budget to provide jobs.

There ability to compete for jobs is highly dependent on making sure their citizens don’t have a high standard of living because they compete for the Boeing’s of the world on the promise of low labor costs.

They are not desirable places to locate the businesses of the future for the most part. Meanwhile their failures are a drag on GDP, economic mobility, and the middle class or what is left of it

That Owens fellow is free to be "conservative" or vote Republican. It's a free country. His logic is idiotic. By his logic, the US Govt would have forced folks to take their foot off of his people's necks out of the goodness of their hearts.....you know, I know people who lost all of the equity in their homes back in the 70s due to fires when the only insurance they could buy was a policy that just covered up to the value of the bank loan...... 50-60% equity wiped out..... told where they could live and told what insurance they could buy..... but, those folks were just lazy....that wasn't to long ago.

[a fan]

That Owens fellow is free to be "conservative" or vote Republican. It's a free country. His logic is idiotic. By his logic, the US Govt would have forced folks to take their foot off of his people's necks out of the goodness of their hearts.....you know, I know people who lost all of the equity in their homes back in the 70s due to fires when the only insurance they could buy was a policy that just covered up to the value of the bank loan...... 50-60% equity wiped out..... told where they could live and told what insurance they could buy..... but, those folks were just lazy....that wasn't to long ago.

I've been saying for decades that sooner or later, libs are going to wise up to this game, and call fake conservative Americans bluff, and simply cut these people off.

You don't want help from the government? Fantastic news, we're going to gut FEMA and the Farm Bill, and use that money to fund health care and college tuition.

This issue is further exacerbated because in urban liberal's eyes, rural conservative Americans are doing everything they can to strip rights away from those that live in the cities. Libs are catching on, and are starting to ask themselves: why are we sending money to these people who clearly despise us?

Tick tock.

Spent 30 minutes listening to Colorado Public Radio discussing Kaiser pulling out of rural Colorado. Why? No profits to be had. Newsflash to rural Americans: this is not a good time to be picking a fight with urban libs. Proceed at great risk.

[CU77]

Very few are actually catching on. The vast majority are still bleeding hearts who want to help everybody.

Me, I want California to secede. We have to take Washington with us though (and OK Oregon too so we can have a contiguous country) because we need those nuke subs in Bangor to provide a deterrent until we can get Livermore to build us some of our own nukes.

[youthathletics]

That Owens fellow is free to be "conservative" or vote Republican. It's a free country. His logic is idiotic. By his logic, the US Govt would have forced folks to take their foot off of his people's necks out of the goodness of their hearts.....you know, I know people who lost all of the equity in their homes back in the 70s due to fires when the only insurance they could buy was a policy that just covered up to the value of the bank loan...... 50-60% equity wiped out..... told where they could live and told what insurance they could buy..... but, those folks were just lazy....that wasn't to long ago.

I've been saying for decades that sooner or later, libs are going to wise up to this game, and call fake conservative Americans bluff, and simply cut these people off.

You don't want help from the government? Fantastic news, we're going to gut FEMA and the Farm Bill, and use that money to fund health care and college tuition.

This issue is further exacerbated because in urban liberal's eyes, rural conservative Americans are doing everything they can to strip rights away from those that live in the cities. Libs are catching on, and are starting to ask themselves: why are we sending money to these people who clearly despise us?

Tick tock.

Spent 30 minutes listening to Colorado Public Radio discussing Kaiser pulling out of rural Colorado. Why? No profits to be had. Newsflash to rural Americans: this is not a good time to be picking a fight with urban libs. Proceed at great risk.

Your paragraph in red is what I am referring to when I say the jobs are in urban settings (not so much in rural settings). Both conservatives AND liberals are attempting to sway business ventures and growth out to the rural areas..(Boeing as one already spoke of). It just takes decades to bare fruit; some are winners and some simply fail. The cost of labor and proximity to an urban area often are the deciding factors. Here in the DMV (DC, Md, Va), Urban sprawl keeps stretching and stretching into the outskirts of what was often called redneck county...Hargerstown, Urbana, Frederick..(Fredneck), Waldorf, Hughsville, Berryville Va, Winchester Va,etc. People have now been moving to WV and Pa and commute 90+ minutes into the cities. Many of these places have now become so congested that they are celled Washington DC N,S,E,and W extended.

Your last comment is interesting, because it speaks to the challenge of large businesses to be profitable in rural american. It's almost as if you need to be on the Gov't teet...defense contracting. I actually thought I heard that one of the large govt' agencies was considering a move out of DC to a flyover state...cannot recall which one it was.

[OCanada]

For decades politicians have been moving jobs and the agencies that have them to the states of powerful pols. No better example than W Va and Sen Byrd.

I lived for a decade on Old Town Alexandria within a few blocks of the Torpedo Factory. People have been using flextime to commute from as far away as Charlottesville Va.

The housing stock within the beltway recovered very quickly after 2008 and lost little value in the first place. Places out in King George still haven’t recovered. Last I looked at it.

To attract the kind of desirable jobs that should be sought you have to have a good education system, a good heanthcare system, good public safety, good infrastructure etc. The kinds of characteristics that you only get by making investments in the future.

Luring Boeing or auto manufacturing based on lower labor costs is essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul. a losing game in the long run, it will be interesting to see how Boeing goes in the long run. Or the BMW Factory in SC. The net user states like those previously mentioned are not likely to be leaders in innovation. They are mostly slow followers fighting yesterdays battles

[youthathletics]

King George/Colonial Beach is booming. A ton of blue collar skilled tradesman looking for cheaper land and solitude from jam packed Waldorf/Charles County. Many of the builders have crossed the Potomac and gobbled upbland.

[MDlaxfan76]

That Owens fellow is free to be "conservative" or vote Republican. It's a free country. His logic is idiotic. By his logic, the US Govt would have forced folks to take their foot off of his people's necks out of the goodness of their hearts.....you know, I know people who lost all of the equity in their homes back in the 70s due to fires when the only insurance they could buy was a policy that just covered up to the value of the bank loan...... 50-60% equity wiped out..... told where they could live and told what insurance they could buy..... but, those folks were just lazy....that wasn't to long ago.

I've been saying for decades that sooner or later, libs are going to wise up to this game, and call fake conservative Americans bluff, and simply cut these people off.

You don't want help from the government? Fantastic news, we're going to gut FEMA and the Farm Bill, and use that money to fund health care and college tuition.

This issue is further exacerbated because in urban liberal's eyes, rural conservative Americans are doing everything they can to strip rights away from those that live in the cities. Libs are catching on, and are starting to ask themselves: why are we sending money to these people who clearly despise us?

Tick tock.

Spent 30 minutes listening to Colorado Public Radio discussing Kaiser pulling out of rural Colorado. Why? No profits to be had. Newsflash to rural Americans: this is not a good time to be picking a fight with urban libs. Proceed at great risk.

Your paragraph in red is what I am referring to when I say the jobs are in urban settings (not so much in rural settings). Both conservatives AND liberals are attempting to sway business ventures and growth out to the rural areas..(Boeing as one already spoke of). It just takes decades to bare fruit; some are winners and some simply fail. The cost of labor and proximity to an urban area often are the deciding factors. Here in the DMV (DC, Md, Va), Urban sprawl keeps stretching and stretching into the outskirts of what was often called redneck county...Hargerstown, Urbana, Frederick..(Fredneck), Waldorf, Hughsville, Berryville Va, Winchester Va,etc. People have now been moving to WV and Pa and commute 90+ minutes into the cities. Many of these places have now become so congested that they are celled Washington DC N,S,E,and W extended.

Your last comment is interesting, because it speaks to the challenge of large businesses to be profitable in rural american. It's almost as if you need to be on the Gov't teet...defense contracting. I actually thought I heard that one of the large govt' agencies was considering a move out of DC to a flyover state...cannot recall which one it was.

Sonny Perdue is trying to move Agriculture out of DC to Kansas City. But it's a ploy to try to sweep out as many of the scientists at the Dept as possible. The climate change deniers want to remove all of those folks, as well as the regulators at USDA etc, folks who administer food stamps, etc. They've been doing everything in their power to gut the Dept. Folks don't want to move to Kansas! So, the scientists are forming a union...

On the other part of the conversation, the offering of low-no taxes and relatively cheap labor to get big businesses to move to rural areas is a longstanding effort. It's a zero-sum game on a national basis, with only the businesses benefiting. The only part I'd disagree slightly with OC about is that Boeing and BMW aren't going to move the jobs of the future, design, R&D, etc to those areas, just some production lines. He's quite correct that those jobs are going to remain where investment in education, healthcare, etc is highest.

[jhu72]

That Owens fellow is free to be "conservative" or vote Republican. It's a free country. His logic is idiotic. By his logic, the US Govt would have forced folks to take their foot off of his people's necks out of the goodness of their hearts.....you know, I know people who lost all of the equity in their homes back in the 70s due to fires when the only insurance they could buy was a policy that just covered up to the value of the bank loan...... 50-60% equity wiped out..... told where they could live and told what insurance they could buy..... but, those folks were just lazy....that wasn't to long ago.

I've been saying for decades that sooner or later, libs are going to wise up to this game, and call fake conservative Americans bluff, and simply cut these people off.

You don't want help from the government? Fantastic news, we're going to gut FEMA and the Farm Bill, and use that money to fund health care and college tuition.

This issue is further exacerbated because in urban liberal's eyes, rural conservative Americans are doing everything they can to strip rights away from those that live in the cities. Libs are catching on, and are starting to ask themselves: why are we sending money to these people who clearly despise us?

Tick tock.

Spent 30 minutes listening to Colorado Public Radio discussing Kaiser pulling out of rural Colorado. Why? No profits to be had. Newsflash to rural Americans: this is not a good time to be picking a fight with urban libs. Proceed at great risk.

In my opinion Kaiser is one of the good guys. They take their healthcare mission seriously and they are willing to bend over backwards, or have in the past, to make their businesses work on very little margin in places that are under served. You have hit bottom when Kaiser pulls out. Just my opinion.

[a fan]

I use Kaiser, and I agree. Rural America is completely F'ed just from the reduction/removal of just this one government perq: subsidized health care. You can't live in a 1st world nation, and not have access to even middling care. People will move. Seniors in particular.....and guess who lives in rural America?

Bye bye American pie. Rural America is on the clock.

[OCanada]

Jared’s Peace Plan

Reference to an article I gather to be published

Jared Kushner’s Middle East peace proposal has been widely panned by international relations experts, and now three Israeli security experts have written a scathing editorial for Politico explaining how the plan could “blow up the Middle East.”

The editorial — which was co-written by Ami Ayalon, former director of the Israeli security agency Shin Bet; Gilead Sher, former chief of staff for Prime Minister Ehud Barak; and Israeli tech entrepreneur Orni Petruschka — argues that Kushner’s peace plan is “immoral” and stands a good chance of producing the opposite of its intended outcome.

[jhu72]

Jared’s Peace Plan

Reference to an article I gather to be published

Jared Kushner’s Middle East peace proposal has been widely panned by international relations experts, and now three Israeli security experts have written a scathing editorial for Politico explaining how the plan could “blow up the Middle East.”

The editorial — which was co-written by Ami Ayalon, former director of the Israeli security agency Shin Bet; Gilead Sher, former chief of staff for Prime Minister Ehud Barak; and Israeli tech entrepreneur Orni Petruschka — argues that Kushner’s peace plan is “immoral” and stands a good chance of producing the opposite of its intended outcome.

I am surprised anyone is taking it seriously. All I have seen / heard is a "happy-feet" economic plan with no indication of who is going to pay for it. The tough part, the political plan is nonexistent. Seems to me it is exactly what you would expect from either a Trump or a Kushner, a plan to spend someone else's money, likely with them seeing some benefit from the expenditure.

[OCanada]

Remember Venezuela? We were going to send troops if necessary. Guess not. Madurao stuck it to Trump with an assist from Russia, China and Cuba. Remember NK. Threats and more threats. Now the VIS is not to upset them and we love their leader. Don’t hear much about them and they’re nukes and their improving their nuclear position.

No we are demanding Iran honor and agreement Trump broke and everyone else believes they have honored.

He accuse Obama several times of trying to have a war to distract from “low” poll numbers. So.....

[jhu72]

I watched some of the Trump re-elect speech from last week. His supporters are no longer applauding for some parts of his performance or getting into it like they did when he first took office. To me it appears even his hardcore is finding it hard to believe that everything he blames on the democrats and/or liberals is true. It really went down hill in terms of audience enthusiasm after the first 10-15 minutes. He needs new material.

It is also being reported that his social media audience has declined by ~50% since he took office.

Saw a interview of a Trump 2016 voter (democrat) who said he won't vote for him in 2020, he is looking for a democrat to support. "I just wish he would shut up!", was his closing remark.

[Brooklyn]

I use Kaiser, and I agree. Rural America is completely F'ed just from the reduction/removal of just this one government perq: subsidized health care. You can't live in a 1st world nation, and not have access to even middling care. People will move. Seniors in particular.....and guess who lives in rural America?

Bye bye American pie. Rural America is on the clock.

case in point:


''Brian Romsdahl said their farm operation is in a perilous position with health insurance costs a major contributor. "The paramount issue we're facing is health care. Last year our family paid $41,000 out of pocket. This is unsustainable. It's bankrupting us."

A farm couple from Waseca County said they were paying $24,000 a year for premiums with a high-deductible plan. Without Obamacare they would have lost all coverage, they said.''


https://www.mankatofreepress.com/news/l ... c69ec.html





Farmers in Lake Wobegone are suffering thanks to the idiocy of the present regime in Washington, DC. But the damn fools voted for him so they have only themselves to blame for the problems.




Other links to the present farm crisis: https://tinyurl.com/y699ra5n

[a fan]

I use Kaiser, and I agree. Rural America is completely F'ed just from the reduction/removal of just this one government perq: subsidized health care. You can't live in a 1st world nation, and not have access to even middling care. People will move. Seniors in particular.....and guess who lives in rural America?

Bye bye American pie. Rural America is on the clock.

case in point:


''Brian Romsdahl said their farm operation is in a perilous position with health insurance costs a major contributor. "The paramount issue we're facing is health care. Last year our family paid $41,000 out of pocket. This is unsustainable. It's bankrupting us."

A farm couple from Waseca County said they were paying $24,000 a year for premiums with a high-deductible plan. Without Obamacare they would have lost all coverage, they said.''

This can't be right, Brookie. FoxNation told us that private business and the free market would lead to lower prices in all cases. What happened?



Can't say these farmers weren't warned by those "stupid liberals"

Oh well. They tried. Maybe next election they'll listen better. Hope springs eternal.

[Brooklyn]

This can't be right, Brookie. FoxNation told us that private business and the free market would lead to lower prices in all cases. What happened?



Can't say these farmers weren't warned by those "stupid liberals"

Oh well. They tried. Maybe next election they'll listen better. Hope springs eternal.

For decades, Reaganites and other delusionals of the far right have given us every assurance that the free market and reduced taxes for the rich would solve every problem under the sun. By now we should be enjoying the end of farm crises, poverty, street crime, and the heartbreak of psoriasis. But we are still waiting: