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Gretchen wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:51 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:49 pmOver the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.

Brooklyn, religious Jews vote with their feet. i.e. 99+% of religious Jews adamantly refute what the Neturei Karta believe by living in Israel, visiting Israel, supporting Israel, etc. And the reason why is... Jews can live anywhere they want. They cannot rebuild the Bais HaMikdash (Temple) until Moshiach (the Messiah) comes. That's the big no-no, rebuilding the Bais HaMikdash. Having a Jewish State is not a no-no. And if you want to say, Yes! But you still haven't refuted what they say!, my response is, I can't refute lots of things. You can say that The World According to Garp is a book about the destruction of the American Steel Industry but 99.9999% of people do not read it that way and... Some things cannot be refuted. People see what they see. But that doesn't mean they're right.

Now go ahead and let them know.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:49 pmA privileged drunk? Okay, you do you.

No dog in the fight as, over and over, you go after the Jews. And, I'm still confused, you said "and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland." Who is this dubious company that you're comparing the Jewish Israelis to?...

MDLaxFan,

... the Shoah {Holocaust}, and thus impetus, for the creation of the current State of Israel.

Though a popular opinion, it is not based on fact.

The Zionist movement goes back to the 1800s and has a socialist base:

http://sapardanis.org/2017/09/20/the-fi ... us%20roots.


True, the horrid actions taken by the brutal Nazis galvanized the movement but it cannot truly be said that it is the actual impetus for it.

njbill wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:21 pm

Gretchen wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:10 pm

njbill wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:48 pm While it is too late to undo the past, with the benefit of hindsight, it is pretty clear now that it was a bad decision, at least from a geopolitical world peace and safety perspective, to create a Jewish state in 1948, given all the wars and violence that have ensued.

Post-World War II, there were millions of Jews in Europe with no home, nowhere to go. Countries around the world were accepting Jews but in relatively small numbers. Tens of thousands here, tens of thousands there, etc. And, while the world dragged their feet, Jews were dying. NJ, i don't disagree with you but the "Jewish Problem" I spoke to above (What to do with the Jews?) was screaming loudly and... What to do? England was turning ships from Europe back to where they came from and... The Jews took their futures into their own hands. You're not wrong about what you're saying but it can't be looked at in a vacuum.

Granted I didn't go into the detail you did (and of course there is no way these issues can be adequately discussed on a lacrosse message board), but I would include the quite accurate points you mention in my "guilted into" comment. I was primarily referring to the Holocaust, but the post-war refugee problems certainly entered into the equation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_po ... by_country

Two countries, the United States (51%), and Israel (30%), including the West Bank (2%), account for 81% of those recognised as Jews or of sufficient Jewish ancestry to be eligible for citizenship in Israel under its Law of Return.

I am proud that the USA has the largest Jewish diaspora in the world. It has made us a far better country (imho).
Since we are thinking outside the box -- If I could rewrite history (which this thread is doing), post WW-II, I would have welcomed all Jews into the US with open arms, after also having done so in the 1930's, for those who wished to emigrate. It would have made us an even greater, stronger, nation & saved the world a great deal of suffering.
We could have worked through the UN to maintain the Holy sites in Palestine for access to all faiths.
I'm open to that idea, even now, especially if the Israelis bring their military with them.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:50 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 9:39 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:49 pm

Gretchen wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 2:56 pm

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 10:51 am Jewish Torah practitioners who condemn Zionist evils...

the Neturei Karta are a fringe group. obviously they exist so there are some Jews who think like them. But this is a very small group. Less than 1% of 1% of religious Jews. the vast majority of religious jews understand why Israel exists.

Over the years I have seen considerable amounts of criticism levelled at the Neturei Karta and other true Torah Jews. Lots of criticism, but not a shred of refutation. Not one doctrinal point they make has ever been successfully refuted by the haters.

Brooklyn,

"true Torah"???

I'm perplexed about where you're coming on this topic.
Do you subscribe to this version of Jewish faith and practice yourself?

Not for nuthin' but you are sounding a bit like the evangelical sorts in my faith who believe there is only one true, literal reading acceptable to God. Any variation and one is condemned to eternal damnation. But perhaps I'm mistaking your point.

Do you really understand any of this?

True Torah (more commonly known as Orthodox) adherents go by a strict interpretation of the "Tanakh" or what Christians call Old Testament. Over the years they have challenged Zionists to refute what they teach. Zionists have failed to refute any of their teachings. If you think you know the Bible better than they do, then by all means go ahead and accept their open challenge. I guarantee they will make you look awfully dumb.

I recall having mentioned in LP that my own ancestry is Sefardic and that my ancestors succumbed to the brutalities of the Inquisition by becoming what are called "conversos". As for the Bible, just go ahead and believe what you want to believe. Since I do not know Hebrew I sure as heck cannot debate the Old Testament's actual meaning with anyone. But I can certainly debate the New Testament as it is fully translated as shown in Strong's Concordance. Over the years I have debated it with many delusional far right types who think they know the book but don't actually know squat.



Believe what you want. Just don't criticize. Especially remember the immortal words of Bob Dylan ~ never criticize what you don't understand.

Thanks for the explanation...interesting background as well.

I will repeat. You sound like evangelical Christians who believe there is only one correct interpretation of the Bible. They can quote chapter and verse, weaving together disparate pieces of scripture to make their claims as to meaning; they claim special and singular meanings to words and phrases, etc...and brook no actual debate. Which I find wholly unpersuasive, for all sorts of reasons. The least of these is my disagreement with their conclusions in particular hot button social topics.

In fact, I much prefer the concept of midrash as a construct for considering text. And I prefer (and believe) that both Old and New Testaments are best read poetically, with meaning to be found in the words as present and not there, sounds where there are no words.

As I have quite a few friends, fellow BD members, and former business partners who are Orthodox, I'm familiar with the diversity within what we call 'Orthodox' as well as other flavors of Jewish faith and practice, as well as more 'cultural' understandings of Judaism. As a longtime broad member (currently on hiatus) of the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies (www.ICJS.org) I'm also quite familiar with text analysis in each of these faiths.

But would certainly not claim expertise, nor would try to debate texts with those who are.

As to "refute", I don't think one can successfully "refute" another's interpretation of their scripture. One can point out alternative understandings and scripture, but there's no overcoming fundamentalist or orthodox beliefs that theirs is the sole interpretation delivered from God.

So, it is unsurprising that you think "Zionists" have never "refuted" "any of their teachings". However, I'm also pretty confident other Orthodox Jews quite disagree with them, yet are no less studious in their understandings of scripture. Other Jews may not be as bound to the scripture in their beliefs, but I'm not going to suggest they are "wrong" in their beliefs simply because scraps of scripture call them to certain practices of beliefs of ancient times.

Again, I'm not remotely in the camp that thinks using scripture to justify one faith's or people's claims to this particular land is more valid than another's claims. Indeed, I think that's a path that inevitably leads to hard line positions contrary to peace, which at least in my own interpretation of God's will is what we should strive towards, however imperfectly.

The 'reason' for the creation of a Jewish State was and remains based in addressing the challenge outlined by Gretchen.

Was it the best answer? Was it the best process for arriving at that answer?
Well, it certainly has proven to be problematic, not the least of which because there was never an appropriate answer for Palestinians, acceptable to them as well.

Of course, none of that addresses what to do going forward, given the realities of today.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:36 pmTrue, the horrid actions taken by the brutal Nazis galvanized the movement but it cannot truly be said that it is the actual impetus for it.

The true impetus is the bible. The story of the Jews is G-d taking Moses and the Jews out of Egypt, bringing the to Mount Sinai to receive the Torah, and then bringing them to their homeland, Israel. The greatest story ever told and one of the oldest stories ever told. Both Zionism and the Shoah were just an idea and an event that happened many, many years later. Bottomline, Israel is the epitome of a cake with an infinite number of ingredients, innumerable moving parts, and an extremely long baking time.

old salt wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 4:37 amI am proud that the USA has the largest Jewish diaspora in the world. It has made us a far better country (imho)... I would have welcomed all Jews into the US with open arms, after also having done so in the 1930's, for those who wished to emigrate. It would have made us an even greater, stronger, nation & saved the world a great deal of suffering.

The numbers towards the bottom of the wiki page are more accurate. Israel is just over 6 million Jews, US is just under.

Where would these 6 million Israeli Jews go? Or, I believe the better question, where would the millions of Jews have gone in the US in the 1940s? They won't all fit in Brooklyn, Manhattan, Philly, etc. In a post-Digital age, Living in Iowa makes substantially more sense. But in the 1940s, this option wasn't so obvious. And, though a pleasant thought, the level of antisemitism in the world at this time, including the US, was pretty darn high. Just so we don't lose sight of reality. The kind of antisemitism that leads a person to say, Freakin' Jews! They're these passive victims! and then when the Jews take up guns and defend themselves the same person, the same antisemite says, Freakin' Jews! They're as bad as the Nazis!

Interesting that the term "orthodox" is used for True Torah Jews whose views square with historic beliefs they have cherished and practiced since time immemorial. Since that is the term directed at them, it might be said that those who stray from those beliefs are "heterodox". As such, it is a concession on their part it is they who have dissented from long accepted viewpoints.

Re I much prefer the concept of midrash as a construct for considering text. You have to wonder how a biblical concept or interpretation can suddenly change its meaning after 2,000 years. Certain right wingers teach a thing called "Christian Zionism" meaning that it is their duty to advance the notion of Christians creating and supporting the Zionist state. Unlike these evangelists (and contrary to your mythic belief that I am like them) I acknowledge that the Bible teaches that only the Messiah can reestablish Israel. While this message is repeated in the Old Testament, it is mentioned only once in the New Testament. In Acts 1:6 the Apostles asked Jesus/Yahshuah "will you now restore the Kingdom?" Ask yourself, how can this teaching suddenly be wrong after all this time? Well, the answer is that it is not, never has been, nor ever will be wrong. The Kingdom can only be restored by the Messiah, not be human agency. Thus, this teaching which refutes the mythic beliefs of evangelists is Orthodox, True Torah, and refutes the heretical teachings of the heterodox believers.

Gretchen wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 8:51 am

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 11:36 pmTrue, the horrid actions taken by the brutal Nazis galvanized the movement but it cannot truly be said that it is the actual impetus for it.

The true impetus is the bible. The story of the Jews is G-d taking Moses and the Jews out of Egypt, bringing the to Mount Sinai to receive the Torah, and then bringing them to their homeland, Israel. The greatest story ever told and one of the oldest stories ever told. Both Zionism and the Shoah were just an idea and an event that happened many, many years later. Bottomline, Israel is the epitome of a cake with an infinite number of ingredients, innumerable moving parts, and an extremely long baking time.

According to Deuteronomy 33:1, Moses blessed the Children of Israel meaning all 12 tribes, not just Judeans.

History shows that the pundits who started the Zionist movement were socialists as shown in the link previously provided.

Gretchen wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:57 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 10:49 pmA privileged drunk? Okay, you do you.

No dog in the fight as, over and over, you go after the Jews. And, I'm still confused, you said "and second it places them in various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland." Who is this dubious company that you're comparing the Jewish Israelis to?...

I “go after” those whose actions warrant it. A more than cursory reading of my comments will show I “go after” the Palestinian leadership as well.

Pretty much all peoples have practiced these techniques, among them the United States.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 7:25 amWas it the best answer? Was it the best process for arriving at that answer?
Well, it certainly has proven to be problematic, not the least of which because there was never an appropriate answer for Palestinians, acceptable to them as well.

Of course, none of that addresses what to do going forward, given the realities of today.

Given the ability to rewrite history, I think if England was to maintain control of Israel and let the Jews from Europe (and the surrounding Arab nations) dock and enter the land, we'd be looking at a very different situation. To me, using a thousands year-old bible as a legal document to grant the land to the Jews seems odd but recognizing that Israel is the Jews homeland is not. it's only when the British starting setting immigration limits that were unreasonable that the Jews started taking the bull by the horns.

One more thing, I think what people are deluding themselves about is that if we did A, B, or C, this would've avoided a lot of pain, harm, and death. This simply is not true. Historically, wherever the largest Jewish population is living, within 100 years, often far less, those Jews are attacked. Currently, this Jewish population is in Israel. If the Jews all went to the US, history says that the fighting would be in the US. The difference being, if we were in the US, that the Jews would, once again, be the victims. what happened in the 40s was the Jews made the decision to no longer be the victims. And, as stated above, this will inevitably result in the anti-Semitic trope of, They're as bad as the Nazis! and... Whatever. These people are fools, anti-Semitic fools, and, if you look at history, look at reality, one can hardly blame the Jews for doing what they are doing. MD, the Jews mistakes. Undeniably. Much like *every* country. But... Israel is held to a higher standard. dare i say it, to an even higher standard than the US. And this is OK. But we must be careful to not confuse a higher standard with a double standard. e.g. The US can pretend that they haven't killed civilians, let alone civilian children since Vietnam. But we all know this is not true. If NYC was being bombed endlessly from residential areas in Toronto (by "military personnel" and residents), there'd be civilian deaths. And any talk of "But America provoked this" would be out the window. Look at 9/11. Where are the people saying, But America provoked this! But it's Israel so... Is it a higher standard or a double standard?

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 amAccording to Deuteronomy 33:1, Moses blessed the Children of Israel meaning all 12 tribes, not just Judeans.

Yes. 12 sons. One was Yehuda and the 11 other sons of Yaakov (Jacob). All Jews. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 amHistory shows that the pundits who started the Zionist movement were socialists as shown in the link previously provided.

Yes. And then religious Jews joined the non-religious in this venture: religious Zionists or Mizrachi. and then the Shoah and then etc.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 amI acknowledge that the Bible teaches that only the Messiah can reestablish Israel. While this message is repeated in the Old Testament...

The five books of Moses never mentions a messiah let alone that only the messiah can reestablish Israel. (The Messiah is spoken to in Kings, Prophets, and other later writings. And even then, poetically, with allusions.) In other words, the bible is full of Jewish laws. 2 of the 5 books are basically nothing but Jewish Law, 40-50% of the 5 books are literally laws and explanations of laws for the Jews. And, not once is there a mention of the Messiah nor only the Messiah can reestablish Israel. Not once let alone repeatedly. Brooklyn, you're a good man and... There's a reason why 99.99% of all religious Jews, the people who know the bible the best, see the Nuteuri Karta as insane.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:22 amA more than cursory reading of my comments will show I “go after” the Palestinian leadership as well.

Do you compare them to the "various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland." Pizza, why the mystery? Who are you comparing the Israelis to?

Gretchen wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:42 am

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 amAccording to Deuteronomy 33:1, Moses blessed the Children of Israel meaning all 12 tribes, not just Judeans.

Yes. 12 sons. One was Yehuda and the 11 other sons of Yaakov (Jacob). All Jews. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 amHistory shows that the pundits who started the Zionist movement were socialists as shown in the link previously provided.

Yes. And then religious Jews joined the non-religious in this venture: religious Zionists or Mizrachi. and then the Shoah and then etc.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 amI acknowledge that the Bible teaches that only the Messiah can reestablish Israel. While this message is repeated in the Old Testament...

The five books of Moses never mentions a messiah let alone that only the messiah can reestablish Israel. (The Messiah is spoken to in Kings, Prophets, and other later writings. And even then, poetically, with allusions.) In other words, the bible is full of Jewish laws. 2 of the 5 books are basically nothing but Jewish Law, 40-50% of the 5 books are literally laws and explanations of laws for the Jews. And, not once is there a mention of the Messiah nor only the Messiah can reestablish Israel. Not once let alone repeatedly. Brooklyn, you're a good man and... There's a reason why 99.99% of all religious Jews, the people who know the bible the best, see the Nuteuri Karta as insane.

If anything, you sound far more like a television evangelist than I can ever hope to be. I wonder if MDLax thinks so.






As for your post, like I said before, try convincing those True Torah Jews that the Bible is wrong.

Good luck.

Gretchen wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:45 am

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:22 amA more than cursory reading of my comments will show I “go after” the Palestinian leadership as well.

Do you compare them to the "various dubious company — ethnic suppression and diminishment to secure a homeland." Pizza, why the mystery? Who are you comparing the Israelis to?

Ah, I see. Anyone who criticizes the actions of Israel is anti-semetic. Is that it? Is that what you are dancing around?

Re-read my last post. Repetition may help your comprehension. I clearly compare the actions to those of the US. Want some more? Modern China.

But just say what you are trying to say.

Incidentally, are you a JDL advocate as well? There’s a pleasant bunch. Or do you only agree with the SPLC and FBI when its suits your obvious bias?

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:50 amIf anything, you sound far more like a television evangelist than I can ever hope to be. I wonder if MDLax thinks so.

Not sure why you're attacking me. And I'm far from a television evangelist. Just sharing what was shared with me.

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:50 amAs for your post, like I said before, try convincing those True Torah Jews that the Bible is wrong. Good luck.

Though I could be wrong, I don't think so many of them are big lacrosse fans. let alone hang out at FanLax. Which is why I'm talking to you. And, Brooklyn, I have to say, they are not "true Torah Jews" nor is the bible wrong. Certainly not based on this discussion.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:12 amAh, I see. Anyone who criticizes the actions of Israel is anti-semetic. Is that it? Is that what you are dancing around?

says the guy who repeatedly avoids my repeated question. who is this "dubious company" that you're comparing the Israeli Jews to? Pizaa, you wrote it. Why continue to dance around it? Why not just say it? or, maybe, do you not want to say it because it's that inappropriate...

And, no, criticizing the actions of Israel does not make you an anti-Semite. Not all people who criticize Israel are anti-Semites. But a lot of anti-Semites criticize Israel.

Gretchen wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:18 am

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:12 amAh, I see. Anyone who criticizes the actions of Israel is anti-semetic. Is that it? Is that what you are dancing around?

says the guy who repeatedly avoids my repeated question. who is this "dubious company" that you're comparing the Israeli Jews to? Pizaa, you wrote it. Why continue to dance around it? Why not just say it? or, maybe, do you not want to say it because it's that inappropriate...

And, no, criticizing the actions of Israel does not make you an anti-Semite. Not all people who criticize Israel are anti-Semites. But a lot of anti-Semites criticize Israel.

Initially I identified the US and most recently recently China. Your reading comprehension needs improvement.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 10:28 amInitially I identified the US and most recently recently China. Your reading comprehension needs improvement.

Not how I read it. My fault...

Brooklyn wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:11 am Interesting that the term "orthodox" is used for True Torah Jews whose views square with historic beliefs they have cherished and practiced since time immemorial. Since that is the term directed at them, it might be said that those who stray from those beliefs are "heterodox". As such, it is a concession on their part it is they who have dissented from long accepted viewpoints.

Re I much prefer the concept of midrash as a construct for considering text. You have to wonder how a biblical concept or interpretation can suddenly change its meaning after 2,000 years. Certain right wingers teach a thing called "Christian Zionism" meaning that it is their duty to advance the notion of Christians creating and supporting the Zionist state. Unlike these evangelists (and contrary to your mythic belief that I am like them) I acknowledge that the Bible teaches that only the Messiah can reestablish Israel. While this message is repeated in the Old Testament, it is mentioned only once in the New Testament. In Acts 1:6 the Apostles asked Jesus/Yahshuah "will you now restore the Kingdom?" Ask yourself, how can this teaching suddenly be wrong after all this time? Well, the answer is that it is not, never has been, nor ever will be wrong. The Kingdom can only be restored by the Messiah, not be human agency. Thus, this teaching which refutes the mythic beliefs of evangelists is Orthodox, True Torah, and refutes the heretical teachings of the heterodox believers.

Well, you and I "read" these textual, scriptural messages very differently. For me the "Kingdom" is not a physical land, it is spiritual. And, I also don't buy into the notion that there is only one, singular path to God and that "Kingdom" as I believe that path is available through many faiths; not in their orthodoxy but in their spirit...but, hey, it's fine to disagree.

As to "True Torah" and "Orthodox", there is quite a bit of diversity of views and interpretation between these sects, no singular one IMO has sole possession of the 'answer' to any question of interpretation. And they've been arguing about these interpretations for millennia...

of course some 'faithful' believe in stoning...