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Mr3Putt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:17 pm Wheels has Rutgers @4 . Based on what? Playing #1 Maryland well? The rest of the schedule is ok, but zero top20 wins . At #4? Salisbury & Tufts could beat Hopkins & Michigan, and this is not being smart a$$.

I know the preseason media poll and the ACC Network told you the ACC was the best conference in the history of lacrosse, so them beating each other just shows how great the conference is. But what if ACC lacrosse is just like B1G basketball this year?

As for Rutgers, they're big, athletic, and experienced all over the field. Few defenses in the country can handle that offense.

Mr3Putt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:17 pm Wheels has Rutgers @4 . Based on what? Playing #1 Maryland well? The rest of the schedule is ok, but zero top20 wins . At #4? Salisbury & Tufts could beat Hopkins & Michigan, and this is not being smart a$$.

they lost by 7 and 4 to maryland. that said, wheels can have anyone he wants wherever he wants. they'll still have to play the games.

Mr3Putt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:17 pm Wheels has Rutgers @4 . Based on what? Playing #1 Maryland well? The rest of the schedule is ok, but zero top20 wins . At #4? Salisbury & Tufts could beat Hopkins & Michigan, and this is not being smart a$$.

It’s humorous....... Maryland is very good but they are going to have a very difficult time when they finally play other teams in the Tournament with equal or better athletes. This year, No team stands high above the rest. I think their Big 10 schedule hasn’t prepared them very well for what they will face, perhaps starting in the quarterfinals. Any of the ACC teams have the talent to beat them on any given day. I would include Denver in that group as well. They will likely have to beat several if they make it to Memorial Day. Odds are they get beat along the way.

Echoing the sentiment of several before me, I don't see RU as Top 4. Not echoing a sentiment of several before me, as a consequence, I don't see UMD as #1. if beating RU twice are their best Ws, their best Ws aren't so impressive. Kudos for their undefeated status but... Wins, and who those wins are against, matter a lot. I agree with the FanLax Computer, UMD should be at #3 and I wouldn't flinch if they dropped to #4.

With a glaring lack of OCC comparisons (even with the ACC beating up on the SoCon) it is really hard to judge where to position the top teams in a poll. I agree that the ACC internecine battles are likely to have prepared their top four (and perhaps even Syracuse) for what lies ahead. But that being said I watched the Terps dismember OSU Sunday and feel they definitely passed the eye test as far as being a realistic contender for the title, and that along with meeting all the challenges this mess of a season has presented them left me quite comfortable putting them at #1 until somebody beats them. I too have my doubts about Rutgers, feeling for various reasons that they will be vulnerable in whatever BIG games remain for them to play, but if they make it through the BIG only losing to Maryland, an appearance in the final four wouldn't surprise me either. Denver's poor showing at FOGO against Georgetown really shocked me as I thought they were coalescing into a viable contender with that aspect of the game pretty well buttoned down. Georgetown has been showing well the past couple of years in the BIgEast tourney and now doing it in the regular season as well. A breakthrough NCAA tourney by them wouldn't surprise me. I have my doubts that Lehigh is seasoned enough to make it past the quaterfinals at the big dance, but a strong finish with winning the PL tourney leaving them undefeated may show me enough team mental fortitude to change my mind. Army seems like it has too many holes to make a deep run. I think if one or the other between Delaware and Drexel wins the CAA tourney they will present a challenge to whomever they meet. Syracuse is a wildcard, but I think if they don't win one of the two ACC games remaining to them they don't deserve an invite even if they are able to schedule a 6th victory patsy.

My two cents, the top 3 are essentially a "tie" using the old eye ball test. There is justification for all of them to be ranked #1, Maryland just getting the nod because they are undefeated. It is not the athletes or the coaches fault the conference restricted their play, I am sure it would have been helpful to schedule some out of conference games from their perspective of readiness, but they didn't have the option. All of the teams have covid challenges, this is actually an additional challenge for Md and Rutgers (OSU?). If they do come out of this on top, it would be more remarkable considering the circumstances of restricted play.

Kikin wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:30 am My two cents, the top 3 are essentially a "tie"... it would be more remarkable considering the circumstances of restricted play.

Agreed and... i don't think this is a matter of fault. of course this isn't MD's fault but... I think this is a matter of consistency. The top team(s) should be the team(s) who *have demonstrated* that they are top teams. And while eyeball tests matter, the demonstration needs to be tangible. Currently, from where I'm sitting, MD beating RU twice (and OSU) hasn't demonstrated they're #1.

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:09 am Agreed and... i don't think this is a matter of fault. of course this isn't MD's fault but... I think this is a matter of consistency. The top team(s) should be the team(s) who *have demonstrated* that they are top teams. And while eyeball tests matter, the demonstration needs to be tangible. Currently, from where I'm sitting, MD beating RU twice (and OSU) hasn't demonstrated they're #1.

Yes, they should have hammered High Point a couple of times and thrown in Jacksonville for a good one, too. Just be sure not to schedule Army at home so they don't get smoked.

When you talk about consistency, nine straight games of uncorking at least a 6-0 run at some point in the game isn't consistent? Having a 7+ per game goal differential isn't consistent? Shooting 40% isn't consistent? Holding opponents under 10 goals per game isn't consistent?

Ask the ACC people how tough it is to play even a couple of the ACC teams twice in the same season with the certainty of playing at least 2 of them 3 times in a season. Now imagine that's your entire schedule.

The entire argument that the B1G isn't good enough is based on the fact that we didn't get to see Penn State clobber Cleveland State like they get to do each year. Or Rutgers getting a chance this year to beat up Lafayette. Or Hopkins eking a win out over Mount St. Mary's. Or Ohio St beating Notre Dame like they did last season.

Can we also discuss another quirk in how people might perceive some of this? Maryland and Rutgers don't have the benefit of the close ties between the ACC and ESPN to pump how great they are multiple times a week across multiple mediums. As if Quint, Carc, Anish, and the like don't have a vested interest in pumping up the ACC to get eyeballs (or ears on pods and eyes on US Lax Mag or IL articles) on their games? I can blame BTN (and Fox, which partially owns BTN) for not showing more games or having better national carriage to get into more homes because that's all true, too.

I can also blame Hopkins for being a suck-burger because when one of your blue blood programs takes a total dump, it drags down the perception of the conference. That happens in every sport.

the b1g just will not take the loss. and no one's fault but their own, if there is fault.
maybe after the tourney, they'll take it gracefully.

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:33 am Yes... That happens in every sport.

i don't mean UMD's consistency. I mean our ranking consistency. or ranking integrity. While eye tests are important, they're also highly flawed, highly vulnerable to prejudices. In terms of MD earning their #1 spot, MD beating up on more mediocre teams wouldn't help. Even if they beat them by 20 or 30 Points with a 90% shooting percentage. They need to demonstrate by playing and beating better teams. Which, to be fair, OSU, RU, etc. may very well be. Heck, 3 of the Final 4 may be B1G teams. The problem is, currently, we don't know. The B1G is in a vacuum. If a B1G team played even one game against an ACC team we'd have some idea but... That's not where we are. It's like comparing the best HS team in GA to teams in Nassau County. We just don't know. Some would say, Based on my eyeball test, Lambert HS (or whoever) is #7 in the nation! based on Lambert crushing innumerable teams in Georgia. Some would say, Lambert is only as good as the teams they've beaten and the best teams they've beaten are ranked in the 20s, 30s, and 40s so Lambert should be ranked accordingly. Which would be behind half, if not more, of the teams in Nassau County. i.e. The team needs to earn their #7 ranking based on being the team with the 7th best Ws and Ls. I favor the latter. Make them earn it.

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:33 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:09 am Agreed and... i don't think this is a matter of fault. of course this isn't MD's fault but... I think this is a matter of consistency. The top team(s) should be the team(s) who *have demonstrated* that they are top teams. And while eyeball tests matter, the demonstration needs to be tangible. Currently, from where I'm sitting, MD beating RU twice (and OSU) hasn't demonstrated they're #1.

Yes, they should have hammered High Point a couple of times and thrown in Jacksonville for a good one, too. Just be sure not to schedule Army at home so they don't get smoked.

When you talk about consistency, nine straight games of uncorking at least a 6-0 run at some point in the game isn't consistent? Having a 7+ per game goal differential isn't consistent? Shooting 40% isn't consistent? Holding opponents under 10 goals per game isn't consistent?

Ask the ACC people how tough it is to play even a couple of the ACC teams twice in the same season with the certainty of playing at least 2 of them 3 times in a season. Now imagine that's your entire schedule.

The entire argument that the B1G isn't good enough is based on the fact that we didn't get to see Penn State clobber Cleveland State like they get to do each year. Or Rutgers getting a chance this year to beat up Lafayette. Or Hopkins eking a win out over Mount St. Mary's. Or Ohio St beating Notre Dame like they did last season.

Can we also discuss another quirk in how people might perceive some of this? Maryland and Rutgers don't have the benefit of the close ties between the ACC and ESPN to pump how great they are multiple times a week across multiple mediums. As if Quint, Carc, Anish, and the like don't have a vested interest in pumping up the ACC to get eyeballs (or ears on pods and eyes on US Lax Mag or IL articles) on their games? I can blame BTN (and Fox, which partially owns BTN) for not showing more games or having better national carriage to get into more homes because that's all true, too.

I can also blame Hopkins for being a suck-burger because when one of your blue blood programs takes a total dump, it drags down the perception of the conference. That happens in every sport.

Despite your complaints about no Big Ten respect, you do realize that Maryland is currently sitting at #1 in most polls because they have no losses, despite their crappy competition? I also don't see many non big 10 fans who don't agree with that ranking at this particular time, even if they think Maryland could be vulnerable in the Tournament. Please tell me what you are complaining about again?. I wish Cooter were here. Though a staunch Terp fan, at least was fair minded and not a Homer.

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:48 am

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:33 am Yes... That happens in every sport.

i don't mean UMD's consistency. I mean our ranking consistency. or ranking integrity. While eye tests are important, they're also highly flawed, highly vulnerable to prejudices. In terms of MD earning their #1 spot, MD beating up on more mediocre teams wouldn't help. Even if they beat them by 20 or 30 Points with a 90% shooting percentage. They need to demonstrate by playing and beating better teams. Which, to be fair, OSU, RU, etc. may very well be. Heck, 3 of the Final 4 may be B1G teams. The problem is, currently, we don't know. The B1G is in a vacuum. If a B1G team played even one game against an ACC team we'd have some idea but... That's not where we are. It's like comparing the best HS team in GA to teams in Nassau County. We just don't know. Some would say, Based on my eyeball test, Lambert HS (or whoever) is #7 in the nation! based on Lambert crushing innumerable teams in Georgia. Some would say, Lambert is only as good as the teams they've beaten and the best teams they've beaten are ranked in the 20s, 30s, and 40s so Lambert should be ranked accordingly. Which would be behind half, if not more, of the teams in Nassau County. i.e. The team needs to earn their #7 ranking based on being the team with the 7th best Ws and Ls. I favor the latter. Make them earn it.

So the ACC gets out of the vacuum because they played a bunch of SoCon teams with the random PL teams thrown in? Or that game against Utah? Because the B1G and Ivy are out of the out-of-conference schedules, almost all of college lacrosse is in a vacuum right now. No one knows how good the ACC is, either.

blue angels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:49 am
Despite your complaints about no Big Ten respect, you do realize that Maryland is currently sitting at #1 in most polls because they have no losses, despite their crappy competition? I also don't see many non big 10 fans who don't agree with that ranking at this particular time, even if they think Maryland could be vulnerable in the Tournament. Please tell me what you are complaining about again?. I wish Cooter were here. Though a staunch Terp fan, at least was fair minded and not a Homer.

I know it's hard to follow along some times, but this started with talk about Rutgers. I know how good Maryland is.

As for Cooter, he's pretty pro-B1G on the Maryland site he still posts on. Pretty sure he'd be saying that RU is a really good, Final 4-type team, too.

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:58 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:48 am

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:33 am Yes... That happens in every sport.

i don't mean UMD's consistency. I mean our ranking consistency. or ranking integrity. While eye tests are important, they're also highly flawed, highly vulnerable to prejudices. In terms of MD earning their #1 spot, MD beating up on more mediocre teams wouldn't help. Even if they beat them by 20 or 30 Points with a 90% shooting percentage. They need to demonstrate by playing and beating better teams. Which, to be fair, OSU, RU, etc. may very well be. Heck, 3 of the Final 4 may be B1G teams. The problem is, currently, we don't know. The B1G is in a vacuum. If a B1G team played even one game against an ACC team we'd have some idea but... That's not where we are. It's like comparing the best HS team in GA to teams in Nassau County. We just don't know. Some would say, Based on my eyeball test, Lambert HS (or whoever) is #7 in the nation! based on Lambert crushing innumerable teams in Georgia. Some would say, Lambert is only as good as the teams they've beaten and the best teams they've beaten are ranked in the 20s, 30s, and 40s so Lambert should be ranked accordingly. Which would be behind half, if not more, of the teams in Nassau County. i.e. The team needs to earn their #7 ranking based on being the team with the 7th best Ws and Ls. I favor the latter. Make them earn it.

So the ACC gets out of the vacuum because they played a bunch of SoCon teams with the random PL teams thrown in? Or that game against Utah? Because the B1G and Ivy are out of the out-of-conference schedules, almost all of college lacrosse is in a vacuum right now. No one knows how good the ACC is, either.

the best we have on the b1g is 2020 record. outside of umd, that's 18-15. hey, at least they were over .500!!

acc has lost one game ooc. by the end, may have beaten the top team in ae, patriot, big east and socon.

so now you want to put the b1g's insular call on them and everyone else? take the loss. if things were done like they've been done in other years (which has benefited b1g teams more than occasionally) rutgers good chance would be outside looking in.

rutty will have their chance to win 2 games and be in the "top 4". like they all will.

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:58 am So the ACC gets out of the vacuum because they played a bunch of SoCon teams with the random PL teams thrown in? Or that game against Utah?...

Yes.

From where you're sitting, if RU played UVA 100 times, how many would they win?

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:27 am From where you're sitting, if RU played UVA 100 times, how many would they win?

That's a great question, and I'm sure your computer can run a Monte Carlo on it. Neutral field? Home-away?

Both teams like to push transition, so they're be a lot of fun games there.

Home-away games...it'd be 50-50. Neutral field? Can't wait for the tournament.

If your question was RU-Cuse...that's a much easier prediction to make.

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:55 amHome-away games...it'd be 50-50...

That's a non-answer... Someone has to get 51 to the others 49...

Wheels wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:33 am

Matnum PI wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:09 am Agreed and... i don't think this is a matter of fault. of course this isn't MD's fault but... I think this is a matter of consistency. The top team(s) should be the team(s) who *have demonstrated* that they are top teams. And while eyeball tests matter, the demonstration needs to be tangible. Currently, from where I'm sitting, MD beating RU twice (and OSU) hasn't demonstrated they're #1.

Yes, they should have hammered High Point a couple of times and thrown in Jacksonville for a good one, too. Just be sure not to schedule Army at home so they don't get smoked.

When you talk about consistency, nine straight games of uncorking at least a 6-0 run at some point in the game isn't consistent? Having a 7+ per game goal differential isn't consistent? Shooting 40% isn't consistent? Holding opponents under 10 goals per game isn't consistent?

Ask the ACC people how tough it is to play even a couple of the ACC teams twice in the same season with the certainty of playing at least 2 of them 3 times in a season. Now imagine that's your entire schedule.

The entire argument that the B1G isn't good enough is based on the fact that we didn't get to see Penn State clobber Cleveland State like they get to do each year. Or Rutgers getting a chance this year to beat up Lafayette. Or Hopkins eking a win out over Mount St. Mary's. Or Ohio St beating Notre Dame like they did last season.

Can we also discuss another quirk in how people might perceive some of this? Maryland and Rutgers don't have the benefit of the close ties between the ACC and ESPN to pump how great they are multiple times a week across multiple mediums. As if Quint, Carc, Anish, and the like don't have a vested interest in pumping up the ACC to get eyeballs (or ears on pods and eyes on US Lax Mag or IL articles) on their games? I can blame BTN (and Fox, which partially owns BTN) for not showing more games or having better national carriage to get into more homes because that's all true, too.

I can also blame Hopkins for being a suck-burger because when one of your blue blood programs takes a total dump, it drags down the perception of the conference. That happens in every sport.

Should post that last section on the hop Thread and really accelerate the page count.

Only 2015, I’m not letting MD off the hook for blowing up their relationship with the ACC over $. Maybe after they’ve had more than a decade or so, but given they are net takers when they come to the revenue generating sports they would appear to be grifters on the backs of BigTen football as much as Hop as hanging in only to have an AQ shot (because Desko was actually right).

wgdsr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:41 am the b1g just will not take the loss. and no one's fault but their own, if there is fault.
maybe after the tourney, they'll take it gracefully.

Gordon Gee-reflective of the mentality and conference culture. All while complaining about how much the SEC cares about football...