~46~ Lame Duck Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
a fan
Posts: 19545
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by a fan »

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:42 am
a fan wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:16 pm
HooDat wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:00 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:00 pm Yeah, we all want Texas and various little town alderman and councilors and select boards making policy for us.
I am saying the opposite. LA, NY, Chicago, Houston & Atlanta shouldn't be setting laws for Des Moines.
I interpret this to mean you don't believe in Civil Rights and the Constitution. Because that's what you're saying here, whether you realize it or not.

Segregation was the result of small town America calling the shots, HooDat. The Constitution said "yeah, sorry mate, you can't do that".

I don't want to go back that....yet that's what our Court is doing.

Our Constitution isn't supposed to be up for a popular vote. And I have ZERO interest in finding out what the people of Des Moines want to tell me I can't do as an American.
I have absolutely no idea how you can come the conclusion that because I support pushing decision making to the most local level practicable that I don't believe in Civil Rights or the Constitution. It is most definitely NOT what I am saying, nor is it even implied in what I said (or think for that matter).

Just as much as I don't want LA deciding how folks in Des Moines have to live, I don't want the people in Des Moines telling the people in LA how to live.
I say this because the ONLY way that what you are proposing works, is if you get rid of the Constitution. Why do you think the looney tune right packed the Court, HooDat?

Look at our history: the Federal Government is the only thing standing between slavery, segregation, allowing women to get loans & attend the school of their choice, gay marriage, and on and on and on. At every turn, Conservative White Americans have tried to make it so that only THEY get the protections of the Constitution....and this is played out locally when the Feds aren't there, ensuring Civil Rights and the rest of the Constitution.

You're forgetting your American history------Conservative Americans have the same relationship with the Constitution that they have with the Bible....they use it as a sword, not a shield.

In other words, they use it to take rights away from "others". The Constitution is for THEM, not for "others". And the ONLY thing keeping those people in Des Moines from making, for example, gay marriage illegal is the Constitution.

And if you ask the people in Des Moine? They'll tell you that Washington is making them run Des Moines in a way that they don't want.

You're ASSUMING Americans don't want to take rights away from their fellow Americans that they themselves enjoy. They have been doing just that for well over 200 years.


HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:42 am We have a political framework that started as a pure republic of united States. Post civil war and even more under FDR the pendulum was swung heavily toward centralized power. I have been very clear on my belief that decision making should be made as locally as practical. We have a Constitution that I believe in very strongly. We have methods for establishing national laws rather than state or local. I don't think ANY process is perfect, because people aren't perfect. The best you can do is set up a framework that you think positions you for the best outcomes over time and observe, learn from your mistakes and hope to convince others of your way of thinking. I like local, I see value in the decision makers having a real chance of having to look the people impacted by their decisions in the eye.
That's what you got! When was the last time you were arrested for a Federal Crime? The Federal Government has almost zero impact on your day to day life by way of comparison to the State and local governments. You got what you wanted, and it's not even a close call.

The only place that's a major exception is when we're dealing with issues that affect us all...that's where the EPA, FDA, et. al. come in. And yep, you can complain about that if you want. But get rid of the EPA or FDA...what do you think would happen to most of America? 2nd world status would arrive at light speed. American Federal regulations are a nothingburger compared with every other 1st world nation.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23812
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:42 am
a fan wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:16 pm
HooDat wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:00 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:00 pm Yeah, we all want Texas and various little town alderman and councilors and select boards making policy for us.
I am saying the opposite. LA, NY, Chicago, Houston & Atlanta shouldn't be setting laws for Des Moines.
I interpret this to mean you don't believe in Civil Rights and the Constitution. Because that's what you're saying here, whether you realize it or not.

Segregation was the result of small town America calling the shots, HooDat. The Constitution said "yeah, sorry mate, you can't do that".

I don't want to go back that....yet that's what our Court is doing.

Our Constitution isn't supposed to be up for a popular vote. And I have ZERO interest in finding out what the people of Des Moines want to tell me I can't do as an American.
I have absolutely no idea how you can come the conclusion that because I support pushing decision making to the most local level practicable that I don't believe in Civil Rights or the Constitution. It is most definitely NOT what I am saying, nor is it even implied in what I said (or think for that matter).

Just as much as I don't want LA deciding how folks in Des Moines have to live, I don't want the people in Des Moines telling the people in LA how to live.

We have a political framework that started as a pure republic of united States. Post civil war and even more under FDR the pendulum was swung heavily toward centralized power. I have been very clear on my belief that decision making should be made as locally as practical. We have a Constitution that I believe in very strongly. We have methods for establishing national laws rather than state or local. I don't think ANY process is perfect, because people aren't perfect. The best you can do is set up a framework that you think positions you for the best outcomes over time and observe, learn from your mistakes and hope to convince others of your way of thinking. I like local, I see value in the decision makers having a real chance of having to look the people impacted by their decisions in the eye.

All that said, I don't get how you make the leap to me saying I want the Constitution up for a popular vote. I don't like the outcome of every decision this court is making, but I do like the fact that the SCOTUS is telling Congress - do your F'ing job and quit asking us to make up laws for you.Their penchant for over-turning longstanding precedent is obviously disruptive, but our system has all the pieces to let us get to the right answers - through honest debate and by following the rules set out in the Constitution.
Posted this previously but I suspect if you can find the time that you'll love this discussion.

https://www.econtalk.org/nassim-nichola ... and-scale/
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23812
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:48 am All these problems started post civil war and got worse under FDR and the next logical step is that the 1960’s resulted in this country becoming so far removed from what was started that we need to get back to it…. That’s what it seems to be implied. The feds need to let each state decide what laws it wants.

I don’t want to go back to that.
Then vote accordingly and make logical arguments for not going back.

I get that a lot of very good things have happened over the time period we are discussing. A lot of wrongs were righted. And I can't argue against the fact that we are all better off for them having been righted sooner rather than later - nor do I have an interest in making that argument.

But I also think there are some unintended negatives that stowed away on those good intentions.

Everything isn't an absolute. I am not making an argument for one extreme over another - extremes are ... well.... extreme. People and societies are very, very complex. A country as large, wealthy and powerful as the US is very complex. I am arguing that the pendulum swung too far to Centralized Power and that we would benefit from a shift toward the middle.

Just because great things were accomplished in the swing to centralized power (if you want to call acknowledging basic human decency "great") doesn't mean we wouldn't benefit from a bit more localized power. I resent the implications that I am calling for a return to slavery if I say I think decisions are best made as close to the problem as practical.

Are you really that scared that Des Moines might have a different drinking age than LA?
BASICS
10 Cognitive Distortions Identified in CBT
By Elizabeth Hartney, BSc, MSc, MA, PhD
Updated on November 13, 2021
Medically reviewed by Steven Gans, MD
Print
Depressed young man
Li Kim Goh / Getty Images

Table of Contents
All-or-Nothing Thinking
Overgeneralization
Mental Filters
Discounting the Positive
Jumping to Conclusions
Magnification
Emotional Reasoning
"Should" Statements
Labeling
Personalization and Blame
Cognitive distortions are negative or irrational patterns of thinking. These negative thought patterns can play a role in diminishing your motivation, lowering your self-esteem, and contributing to problems like anxiety, depression, and substance use.

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is an approach that helps people recognize these cognitive distortions and replace them with more helpful, realistic thoughts.1

This article discusses different types of cognitive distortions including defining what they are, how they work, and offering hypothetical examples to show how this kind of thinking affects behavior.

All-or-Nothing Thinking
All-or-nothing thinking is also known as black and white thinking or polarized thinking. This type of thinking involves viewing things in absolute terms: Situations are always black or white, everything or nothing, good or bad, success or failure.2
All-or-nothing thinking is associated with certain mental health conditions, including narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) and borderline personality disorder (BPD).3

For example, Joan feels like a failure at school. Every time she makes a mistake, instead of acknowledging the error and trying to move past it, she gives up and assumes that she'll never be able to do well.

The problem with this type of thinking is that it doesn't allow any room to acknowledge anything between the two extremes. It can impair your motivation and confidence and make it hard to stick to long-term goals.

For example, instead of sticking to a healthy eating plan, you might throw up your hands and call yourself a failure every time you deviate from your plan. Or you might feel like starting a new workout plan is hopeless because you think that if you can't stick to it 100%, then you are a failure.

CBT works to overcome this type of cognitive distortion by helping you recognize that success and progress are not all-or-nothing concepts. By addressing this type of thinking and replacing self-defeating thoughts, you can feel better about your progress and recognize your strengths.


Overgeneralization
Overgeneralization happens when you make a rule after a single event or a series of coincidences.4 The words "always" or "never" frequently appear in the sentence. Because you have experience with one event playing out a certain way, you assume that all future events will have the same outcome.

For example, Ben has inferred from a series of coincidences that seven is his lucky number and has overgeneralized this to gambling situations involving the number seven, no matter how many times he loses.

The problem with this type of thinking is that it doesn't account for differences between situations as well as the role that chance or luck can play. This thinking can have a number of consequences on how people think and act in different situations.

Overgeneralization is associated with the development and maintenance of different anxiety disorders. When people have a bad experience in one situation, they assume that the same thing will happen again in the future.
Research also suggests that this type of cognitive distortion is common in people who have post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).5 Generalizing fear from one situation to future events can create feelings of anxiety, which often leads to avoidance of those situations.

Mental Filters
A mental filter is the opposite of overgeneralization, but with the same negative outcome.6 Instead of taking one small event and generalizing it inappropriately, the mental filter takes one small event and focuses on it exclusively, filtering out anything else.

This type of cognitive distortion can contribute to problems including addiction, anxiety, poor self-belief, and interpersonal problems, among other issues.

For example, Nathan focuses on all of the negative or hurtful things that his partner has said or done in their relationship, but he filters all the kind and thoughtful things his partner does. This thinking contributes to feelings of negativity about his partner and their relationship.

Filtering out the positive and focusing on the negative can have a detrimental impact on your mental well-being. One study found that when people focused only on negative self-beliefs, it contributed to feelings of hopelessness and increased the risk of suicidal thinking.7

Discounting the Positive
Discounting the positive is a cognitive distortion that involves ignoring or invalidating good things that have happened to you.8 It is similar to mental filtering, but instead of simply ignoring the positives, you are actively rejecting them.

For example, Joel completes a project and receives an award for his outstanding work. Rather than feeling proud of his achievement, he attributes it to pure luck that has nothing to do with his talent and effort.

When people use this cognitive distortion, they view positive events as flukes. Because these positives are always seen as anomalies, they don't expect them to happen again in the future.

The problem with this type of thinking is that it undermines your faith in your abilities. Rather than recognizing your strengths, you assume that you aren't competent or skilled—you just got lucky.
When you discount the positive and challenges arise, you won't have faith in your ability to cope or overcome them. This lack of faith in yourself can lead to a sense of learned helplessness where you assume there is no point in even trying to change the outcome.

Jumping to Conclusions
There are two ways of jumping to conclusions:

Mind reading: When you think someone is going to react in a particular way, or you believe someone is thinking things that they aren't
Fortune telling: When you predict events will unfold in a particular way, often to avoid trying something difficult
Here's an example: Jamie engaged in fortune-telling when he believed that he wouldn't be able to stand life without heroin. In reality, he could and he did.

How to Stop Jumping to Conclusions
Magnification
Magnification is exaggerating the importance of shortcomings and problems while minimizing the importance of desirable qualities. Similar to mental filtering and discounting the positive, this cognitive distortion involves magnifying your negative qualities while minimizing your positive ones.

When something bad happens, you see this as "proof" of your own failures. But when good things happen, you minimize their importance. For example, a person addicted to pain medication might magnify the importance of eliminating all pain, and exaggerate how unbearable their pain is.

This thinking can affect behavior in a variety of ways. It can contribute to feelings of anxiety, fear, and panic because it causes people to exaggerate the importance of insignificant problems.

People sometimes believe that other people notice and judge even small mistakes. At the same time, they will minimize their own ability to cope with feelings of stress and anxiety, which can then contribute to increased anxiety and avoidance.9

Emotional Reasoning
Emotional reasoning is a way of judging yourself or your circumstances based on your emotions. For instance, Jenna used emotional reasoning to conclude that she was a worthless person, which in turn led to binge eating.

This type of reasoning assumes that because you are experiencing a negative emotion, it must be an accurate reflection of reality. If you feel experience feelings of guilt, for example, emotional reasoning would lead you to conclude that you are a bad person.

This type of thinking can contribute to a number of problems including feelings of anxiety and depression. While research has found that this distortion is common in people who have anxiety and depression, it is actually a very common way of thinking that many people engage in.10

Cognitive behavior therapy can help people learn to recognize the signs of emotional reasoning and realize that feelings are not facts.

"Should" Statements
"Should" statements involve always thinking about things that you think you "should" or "must" do. These types of statements can make you feel worried or anxious.
They can also cause you to experience feelings of guilt or a sense of failure. Because you always think you "should" be doing something, you end up feeling as if you are always failing.

These statements are self-defeating ways we talk to ourselves that emphasize unattainable standards. Then, when we fall short of our own ideas, we fail in our own eyes, which can create panic and anxiety.

An example: Cheryl thinks that she should be able to play a song on her violin without making any mistakes. When she does make mistakes, she feels angry and upset with herself. As a result, she starts to avoid practicing her violin.

Labeling
Labeling is a cognitive distortion that involves making a judgment about yourself or someone else as a person, rather than seeing the behavior as something the person did that doesn't define them as an individual.

You might think of this cognitive distortion as an extreme type of all-or-nothing thinking because it involves attaching a label to someone that offers no room for anything outside of that narrow, restrictive box.

For example, you might label yourself as a failure. You can also label other people as well. You might decide that someone is a jerk because of one interaction and continue to judge them in all future interactions through that lens with no room for redemption.

Personalization and Blame
Personalization and blame is a cognitive distortion whereby you entirely blame yourself, or someone else, for a situation that in reality involved many factors that were out of your control.

For example, Anna blamed herself for her daughter's bad grade in school. Instead of trying to find out why her daughter is struggling and exploring ways to help, Anna assumes it is a sign that she is a bad mother.

Personalization and blame cause people to feel inadequate. It can also lead to people experiencing feelings of shame and guilt.

Blame can also be attributed to others. In some cases, people will blame other people while ignoring other factors that could potentially play a role in the situation. For example, they might blame their relationship problems on their partner without acknowledging their own role.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34070
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:01 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:42 am
a fan wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:16 pm
HooDat wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:00 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 4:00 pm Yeah, we all want Texas and various little town alderman and councilors and select boards making policy for us.
I am saying the opposite. LA, NY, Chicago, Houston & Atlanta shouldn't be setting laws for Des Moines.
I interpret this to mean you don't believe in Civil Rights and the Constitution. Because that's what you're saying here, whether you realize it or not.

Segregation was the result of small town America calling the shots, HooDat. The Constitution said "yeah, sorry mate, you can't do that".

I don't want to go back that....yet that's what our Court is doing.

Our Constitution isn't supposed to be up for a popular vote. And I have ZERO interest in finding out what the people of Des Moines want to tell me I can't do as an American.
I have absolutely no idea how you can come the conclusion that because I support pushing decision making to the most local level practicable that I don't believe in Civil Rights or the Constitution. It is most definitely NOT what I am saying, nor is it even implied in what I said (or think for that matter).

Just as much as I don't want LA deciding how folks in Des Moines have to live, I don't want the people in Des Moines telling the people in LA how to live.
I say this because the ONLY way that what you are proposing works, is if you get rid of the Constitution. Why do you think the looney tune right packed the Court, HooDat?

Look at our history: the Federal Government is the only thing standing between slavery, segregation, allowing women to get loans & attend the school of their choice, gay marriage, and on and on and on. At every turn, Conservative White Americans have tried to make it so that only THEY get the protections of the Constitution....and this is played out locally when the Feds aren't there, ensuring Civil Rights and the rest of the Constitution.

You're forgetting your American history------Conservative Americans have the same relationship with the Constitution that they have with the Bible....they use it as a sword, not a shield.

In other words, they use it to take rights away from "others". The Constitution is for THEM, not for "others". And the ONLY thing keeping those people in Des Moines from making, for example, gay marriage illegal is the Constitution.

And if you ask the people in Des Moine? They'll tell you that Washington is making them run Des Moines in a way that they don't want.

You're ASSUMING Americans don't want to take rights away from their fellow Americans that they themselves enjoy. They have been doing just that for well over 200 years.


HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:42 am We have a political framework that started as a pure republic of united States. Post civil war and even more under FDR the pendulum was swung heavily toward centralized power. I have been very clear on my belief that decision making should be made as locally as practical. We have a Constitution that I believe in very strongly. We have methods for establishing national laws rather than state or local. I don't think ANY process is perfect, because people aren't perfect. The best you can do is set up a framework that you think positions you for the best outcomes over time and observe, learn from your mistakes and hope to convince others of your way of thinking. I like local, I see value in the decision makers having a real chance of having to look the people impacted by their decisions in the eye.
That's what you got! When was the last time you were arrested for a Federal Crime? The Federal Government has almost zero impact on your day to day life by way of comparison to the State and local governments. You got what you wanted, and it's not even a close call.

The only place that's a major exception is when we're dealing with issues that affect us all...that's where the EPA, FDA, et. al. come in. And yep, you can complain about that if you want. But get rid of the EPA or FDA...what do you think would happen to most of America? 2nd world status would arrive at light speed. American Federal regulations are a nothingburger compared with every other 1st world nation.
Exactly. It’s all cover. Much like “fight illegal immigration” is really roll it all back. The numbers speak for themselves. We have just had “States” try to undo a Presidential election! We are out of balance….let the “people” decide which is really, let the politicians decide. Take a look at Gym Jordan’s congressional district….look at who it avoids….no thanks pal.
Last edited by Typical Lax Dad on Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“I wish you would!”
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23812
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by Farfromgeneva »

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:36 am
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:48 am All these problems started post civil war and got worse under FDR and the next logical step is that the 1960’s resulted in this country becoming so far removed from what was started that we need to get back to it…. That’s what it seems to be implied. The feds need to let each state decide what laws it wants.

I don’t want to go back to that.
Then vote accordingly and make logical arguments for not going back.

I get that a lot of very good things have happened over the time period we are discussing. A lot of wrongs were righted. And I can't argue against the fact that we are all better off for them having been righted sooner rather than later - nor do I have an interest in making that argument.

But I also think there are some unintended negatives that stowed away on those good intentions.

Everything isn't an absolute. I am not making an argument for one extreme over another - extremes are ... well.... extreme. People and societies are very, very complex. A country as large, wealthy and powerful as the US is very complex. I am arguing that the pendulum swung too far to Centralized Power and that we would benefit from a shift toward the middle.

Just because great things were accomplished in the swing to centralized power (if you want to call acknowledging basic human decency "great") doesn't mean we wouldn't benefit from a bit more localized power. I resent the implications that I am calling for a return to slavery if I say I think decisions are best made as close to the problem as practical.

Are you really that scared that Des Moines might have a different drinking age than LA?
Positives and negatives. On balance we are all better off. I have family from Des Moines and LA, ironically. I don’t mind how this country has progressed. We have enough of a balance. What are folks doing in Des Moines that was dictated by Los Angeles? Give me three examples of policy decision in LA being applied to Des Moines.

I don’t want to go back to Jim Crow or poll taxes or any other number of things that “the people in those states” wanted. I want some federal and court oversight.

Ironically this kick it back to the states that you seem to be pleased about has little to do with the court finally waking up and turning the ball back over to the States and everything to do with Right Wing judicial activism that started 50 years ago. Basically political appointees now there to serve. Yeah the 1960s was just judicial activism. It was a mistake…..and yeah, you are just a libertarian calling balls and strikes. I have heard it 1,000 times.
I am not a libertarian in the least. Libertarianism is the land of the tragically uniformed. How can you govern on the foundation of NOT governing? You want to be an anarchist - knock yourself out, but don't come at me with "make me your politician and I won't do anything", that is just stupid....

Why does the idea of states having more power have to immediately equal Jim Crow? That is a sophist argument.

With a little time I am sure I could give you a lot more than three policy decisions made in LA that impacted Des Moines. I am not saying these are bad, I am just saying that they were effectively foisted upon the country by LA's combination of buying power and ability to make local regulatory decisions (which ironically, is actually what I am calling for just in different packaging). Here are a few that pop to mind immediately:
- auto mpg standards
- lead free gasoline
- various labeling disclosures for potentially cancerous substances
There's a lot more to being truly libertarian (not this stupid party we have here which is far from libertarian, libertarian is a effectivelly a different paradigm). Not to get into that but there's an elegance in emergent forces as Hayek wrote extensively about. That is not "not governing" which is a trap you caught yourself into as an absolute rather than on the spectrum.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
a fan
Posts: 19545
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:05 pm

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by a fan »

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am But I also think there are some unintended negatives that stowed away on those good intentions.
Can you share some examples?

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am I am arguing that the pendulum swung too far to Centralized Power and that we would benefit from a shift toward the middle.
You can't. Des Moines needs NYC's money and, more importantly, NYC's ability to borrow money and give it to Des Moines.

Balance the US budget for 10 years, and you'll understand what I'm saying in year 2.


HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am I resent the implications that I am calling for a return to slavery if I say I think decisions are best made as close to the problem as practical.
No one is saying you support slavery. We're simply pointing out that what you are asking for will lead to a mess of laws that take Civil Rights away from others. Picture what laws Utah would pass if there was no Constitution. We've already done what you're asking. Did it from 1789-1960. The results were great if you had the "correct" gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Look at what they just did with Women's Rights? They put it up to a "vote" and said that women don't have rights in the Constitution, and their bodies are a ward of the State, and there for the whims of voters. That's full on insane, if you ask me.
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am Are you really that scared that Des Moines might have a different drinking age than LA?
No. What I'm annoyed by is that my taxes are on the hook for Des Moines choices. So in the American South? They have taxes that are low as F.....all because the Fed cuts them massive checks with my money in it. They want to run their State like a 2nd rate nation? Go right ahead. But do it with YOUR money, not MINE.

Great discussion, HooDat.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23812
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:54 pm I think this is a useful discussion.

I read HooDat as saying that some decisions may be better made at a local level in which accountability may be more present. From a simply philosophical position, this sounds reasonable.

On the other hand, it's not being disputed that local decisions about some other matters have been the opposite of "accountable" in that many people were disenfranchised in all sorts of ways, with 'accountability' only to those with the power. No accountability to those without such power.

We can come up with all sorts of examples, both historically and around the world, in which "local" choices made by those in power "locally" are really rather awful.

Would stoning as a punishment for a woman's infidelity be ok simply because a town or state decided that they didn't like women cheating on their husbands? (I for one don't like the idea of women cheating on their husbands, so...)

Again, it's quite easy for us to agree on many, many such examples in which we would say, 'oh no, we need to protect individuals from the power of the mob or from the powerful in control"...so, we look to federal government for legislation and executive support, and most importantly we look to the Constitution as amended and as interpreted by the judiciary. Most often, the support that is necessary can only come from the Constitutional protections.

And, at least for most of the past 150 or so years, the judiciary has progressively supported individual rights and autonomy, whether at the federal, state, or local level. As cases were brought seeking such protection against discrimination and bigotry and invasion of privacy, the judiciary has progressively sided with expansion of protection from the tyranny of the mob, the power of the state.

That's recently been reversed, and with at least one Justice baldly declaring that individual autonomy and rights have no real Constitutional basis for protection, and that only states (local) should have the power to make such decisions for their citizens. Under this new "interpretation", the Federal government has no authority to protect individual rights, only the States do...and they needn't do so...

Don't like it, complain to your state legislators...but no protection.
The "State" gets to decide what protections it wants to grant or remove.
well here's the rub. Hoo argues for localized decision making as much as is practical. You need a "parent" entity (think org chart) to adjudicate what is "practical" and therefor it lands back in federal hands a lot more than that postion would desire. They think they can adjudicate what is practical but that's not reality for a number of reasons.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Typical Lax Dad
Posts: 34070
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:10 pm

Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:31 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:36 am
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:48 am All these problems started post civil war and got worse under FDR and the next logical step is that the 1960’s resulted in this country becoming so far removed from what was started that we need to get back to it…. That’s what it seems to be implied. The feds need to let each state decide what laws it wants.

I don’t want to go back to that.
Then vote accordingly and make logical arguments for not going back.

I get that a lot of very good things have happened over the time period we are discussing. A lot of wrongs were righted. And I can't argue against the fact that we are all better off for them having been righted sooner rather than later - nor do I have an interest in making that argument.

But I also think there are some unintended negatives that stowed away on those good intentions.

Everything isn't an absolute. I am not making an argument for one extreme over another - extremes are ... well.... extreme. People and societies are very, very complex. A country as large, wealthy and powerful as the US is very complex. I am arguing that the pendulum swung too far to Centralized Power and that we would benefit from a shift toward the middle.

Just because great things were accomplished in the swing to centralized power (if you want to call acknowledging basic human decency "great") doesn't mean we wouldn't benefit from a bit more localized power. I resent the implications that I am calling for a return to slavery if I say I think decisions are best made as close to the problem as practical.

Are you really that scared that Des Moines might have a different drinking age than LA?
Positives and negatives. On balance we are all better off. I have family from Des Moines and LA, ironically. I don’t mind how this country has progressed. We have enough of a balance. What are folks doing in Des Moines that was dictated by Los Angeles? Give me three examples of policy decision in LA being applied to Des Moines.

I don’t want to go back to Jim Crow or poll taxes or any other number of things that “the people in those states” wanted. I want some federal and court oversight.

Ironically this kick it back to the states that you seem to be pleased about has little to do with the court finally waking up and turning the ball back over to the States and everything to do with Right Wing judicial activism that started 50 years ago. Basically political appointees now there to serve. Yeah the 1960s was just judicial activism. It was a mistake…..and yeah, you are just a libertarian calling balls and strikes. I have heard it 1,000 times.
I am not a libertarian in the least. Libertarianism is the land of the tragically uniformed. How can you govern on the foundation of NOT governing? You want to be an anarchist - knock yourself out, but don't come at me with "make me your politician and I won't do anything", that is just stupid....

Why does the idea of states having more power have to immediately equal Jim Crow? That is a sophist argument.

With a little time I am sure I could give you a lot more than three policy decisions made in LA that impacted Des Moines. I am not saying these are bad, I am just saying that they were effectively foisted upon the country by LA's combination of buying power and ability to make local regulatory decisions (which ironically, is actually what I am calling for just in different packaging). Here are a few that pop to mind immediately:
- auto mpg standards
- lead free gasoline
- various labeling disclosures for potentially cancerous substances
There's a lot more to being truly libertarian (not this stupid party we have here which is far from libertarian, libertarian is a effectivelly a different paradigm). Not to get into that but there's an elegance in emergent forces as Hayek wrote extensively about. That is not "not governing" which is a trap you caught yourself into as an absolute rather than on the spectrum.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:34 pm well here's the rub. Hoo argues for localized decision making as much as is practical. You need a "parent" entity (think org chart) to adjudicate what is "practical" and therefor it lands back in federal hands a lot more than that postion would desire. They think they can adjudicate what is practical but that's not reality for a number of reasons.
YES!!!!

And like all good parents - the federal government should be giving its "children" as much freedom as they can responsibly handle (and arguably a little more). But I am not suggesting that every once in a while the parent does have to step in and say no.


a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:26 am But I also think there are some unintended negatives that stowed away on those good intentions.
Can you share some examples?
these tend to swing both ways and center around over regulation. But to me the biggest examples are when the federal government makes choices (backed by its purse) on emerging issues that are based on lobbying dollars or current fads - when these types of decisions are made at the federal level they are more harmful than at the state because other states can continue to innovate: my example here is wind power. A chosen "winner" due to lobbying not technology.

a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pmYou can't. Des Moines needs NYC's money and, more importantly, NYC's ability to borrow money and give it to Des Moines.

Balance the US budget for 10 years, and you'll understand what I'm saying in year 2.
There is a LOT packed into this, that could be its own thread (and a good one). Let's start with what we mean by Des Moines needs that money. To do what? Provide a high quality of life or keep up on the global treadmill that is teetering on the brink because every country in the world has doubled down on how much they can borrow to pay for trinkets they throw at voters? see what I mean - that's a whole other conversation....


a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pmNo one is saying you support slavery. We're simply pointing out that what you are asking for will lead to a mess of laws that take Civil Rights away from others. Picture what laws Utah would pass if there was no Constitution. We've already done what you're asking. Did it from 1789-1960. The results were great if you had the "correct" gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Look at what they just did with Women's Rights? They put it up to a "vote" and said that women don't have rights in the Constitution, and their bodies are a ward of the State, and there for the whims of voters. That's full on insane, if you ask me.
A whole lot worse has been done under national centralized governments - just ask the folks who were massacred under Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot..... past performance is no guarantee of future results....


a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm No. What I'm annoyed by is that my taxes are on the hook for Des Moines choices. So in the American South? They have taxes that are low as F.....all because the Fed cuts them massive checks with my money in it. They want to run their State like a 2nd rate nation? Go right ahead. But do it with YOUR money, not MINE.
This is a legitimate complaint. The simplest (and truest) answer to this is give it freely or don't give it at all. But there are two ways to look at this: 1) is the federal government is going to spend its money in the states exactly the way they choose, or 2) the federal government is going to make investments in states to try different strategies to tackle certain issues, but the state's decide the specifics in order to spur innovation.

a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm Great discussion, HooDat.
Agreed, that's what we're here for right?
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:21 pm Posted this previously but I suspect if you can find the time that you'll love this discussion.

https://www.econtalk.org/nassim-nichola ... and-scale/
you did, and I did! Thanks again for the link.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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HooDat,
Did you provide some specific examples of what you consider federal overreach...specific policies, laws, regulations?

I think you just waved your hands... ;)

Do you agree that there are examples of States, not just historically but right now, taking away rights from individuals that used to be assumed to be Constitutionally protected?

Examples of those?

re the dangers of "centralized" government, you are describing authoritarian regimes. Regimes with no checks and balances at the federal level, much less any of the decentralization aspects.

And yes, authoritarian regimes, of any size, can be very dangerous.

We definitely need to resist authoritarianism of any stripe...but the relative balance of decision-making delegation between federal and state is not the critical aspect, it's the dominance of the "STATE" versus the individual.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:39 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:21 pm Posted this previously but I suspect if you can find the time that you'll love this discussion.

https://www.econtalk.org/nassim-nichola ... and-scale/
you did, and I did! Thanks again for the link.
Sorry for redundancy there but at the risk of providing a sort of echo chambers for you he’s a super smart guy I’m a huge fan of and it’s nail in head to what you talk about a bit here.
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Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:43 pm HooDat,
Did you provide some specific examples of what you consider federal overreach...specific policies, laws, regulations?

I think you just waved your hands... ;)

Do you agree that there are examples of States, not just historically but right now, taking away rights from individuals that used to be assumed to be Constitutionally protected?

Examples of those?

re the dangers of "centralized" government, you are describing authoritarian regimes. Regimes with no checks and balances at the federal level, much less any of the decentralization aspects.

And yes, authoritarian regimes, of any size, can be very dangerous.

We definitely need to resist authoritarianism of any stripe...but the relative balance of decision-making delegation between federal and state is not the critical aspect, it's the dominance of the "STATE" versus the individual.
I did provide examples, see above.

And to your other points, the balance of powers only works if the 3 branches of federal government keep each other in check. Now all they do is: (i) Congress obstructs a POTUS of the other party or stands by while "their" POTUS writes executive orders, (ii) SCOTUS (historically) stands by and says - "whatever the federal government says goes" and (iii) POTUS runs the country like its a monarchy when he can get away with it (see (i) above). Not a lot of checking or balancing has gone on since the elder Bush became president. I guess it could be all three branches are genuinely in agreement (see the 100's of afan posts about GOP spending sprees and the fact that they get more Dem platform items made into law than the Dems do). I tend to think DC is at best in an echo chamber and at worst a bunch of politicians in agreement about keeping power for themselves. The SCOTUS is supposed to enforce the Constitution - a document primarily dedicated to enshrining the power of the states juxtaposed to the limited powers granted the federal government. Congress gave up doing their job a long time ago.

So, I think I have made my view on politicians pretty clear. Every one of them is a would-be dictator ;)

That leaves the question what to do about it. The founders had it right - pit the rat-f@cker's against each other !

But I already noted that in DC they are all in cahoots. My answer is to push the decision making down to the lowest level practical and then let the governmental bodies higher up the food chain smash the local pols when they step out of line....

A small step of progress could be to move the three branches into different parts of the country. Leave POTUS in DC. Move the Congress to Colorado Springs (near airforce bases) and put SCOTUS in San Diego - perhaps we get rid of some of that group think?

Although it won't happen because that would be inconvenient to the lobbyists. :lol:
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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a fan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:33 pm
HooDat wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:26 am
But I also think there are some unintended negatives that stowed away on those good intentions.
Can you share some examples?

these tend to swing both ways and center around over regulation. But to me the biggest examples are when the federal government makes choices (backed by its purse) on emerging issues that are based on lobbying dollars or current fads - when these types of decisions are made at the federal level they are more harmful than at the state because other states can continue to innovate: my example here is wind power. A chosen "winner" due to lobbying not technology.

The above italicized was your response...those aren't specific examples.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:18 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:43 pm HooDat,
Did you provide some specific examples of what you consider federal overreach...specific policies, laws, regulations?

I think you just waved your hands... ;)

Do you agree that there are examples of States, not just historically but right now, taking away rights from individuals that used to be assumed to be Constitutionally protected?

Examples of those?

re the dangers of "centralized" government, you are describing authoritarian regimes. Regimes with no checks and balances at the federal level, much less any of the decentralization aspects.

And yes, authoritarian regimes, of any size, can be very dangerous.

We definitely need to resist authoritarianism of any stripe...but the relative balance of decision-making delegation between federal and state is not the critical aspect, it's the dominance of the "STATE" versus the individual.
I did provide examples, see above.

And to your other points, the balance of powers only works if the 3 branches of federal government keep each other in check. Now all they do is: (i) Congress obstructs a POTUS of the other party or stands by while "their" POTUS writes executive orders, (ii) SCOTUS (historically) stands by and says - "whatever the federal government says goes" and (iii) POTUS runs the country like its a monarchy when he can get away with it (see (i) above). Not a lot of checking or balancing has gone on since the elder Bush became president. I guess it could be all three branches are genuinely in agreement (see the 100's of afan posts about GOP spending sprees and the fact that they get more Dem platform items made into law than the Dems do). I tend to think DC is at best in an echo chamber and at worst a bunch of politicians in agreement about keeping power for themselves. The SCOTUS is supposed to enforce the Constitution - a document primarily dedicated to enshrining the power of the states juxtaposed to the limited powers granted the federal government. Congress gave up doing their job a long time ago.

So, I think I have made my view on politicians pretty clear. Every one of them is a would-be dictator ;)

That leaves the question what to do about it. The founders had it right - pit the rat-f@cker's against each other !

But I already noted that in DC they are all in cahoots. My answer is to push the decision making down to the lowest level practical and then let the governmental bodies higher up the food chain smash the local pols when they step out of line....

A small step of progress could be to move the three branches into different parts of the country. Leave POTUS in DC. Move the Congress to Colorado Springs (near airforce bases) and put SCOTUS in San Diego - perhaps we get rid of some of that group think?

Although it won't happen because that would be inconvenient to the lobbyists. :lol:
It would also be colossally dumb and inefficient.

But I do agree about lobbyists and money in politics...again, big mistake by the rightward turn of SCOTUS.

Note, lobbyists dominate states and cities even easier than at the federal level...need more lobbyists, but they'd have even greater control.

Again,
I haven't seen your specific examples of policy decisions made at the federal level that you think were incorrect and should instead be made at the state level.

Nor your examples of decisions being made now (if any) at the state level that you think take away individual's rights.

I also quite disagree about your statement "primarily dedicated to enshrining the power of the states juxtaposed to the limited powers granted the federal government."

My reading of the Constitution is a long list of the most important powers of any country agreed to under the document in Article 1, with much lesser powers delegated to the States. Not the other way around. The rest of the base document is mostly devoted to enumerating the various distribution of those federal powers among the 3 branches.

To the extent that states have some special protections, I see that not as "enshrining" but rather as a compromise necessitated to bring slave-holding states into the union. Original sin, not sacred.

And that's not even getting to the various amendments, etc, most of which focus on "enshrining" the rights of individuals versus the power of government.

I agree that we have a whole lot of dysfunctional behavior in our federal government, but I don't agree that legislation doesn't get done that is meaningful to governing (I may not, however, agree all the time). We "muddle through" in our processes, with "do nothing" Congresses a repeating refrain throughout our country's history met with complaints of Congressional overreach...muddling away, ebbing and flowing...democracy at work.

I'm far more concerned with the challenges to democracy being waged by currently right wing all or nothing types, and that's at every level of government. And, whether you like it or not, these are those who want power at the state level where it is easier to gain control and wield it to their controlling ends. That's who you are associating yourself with by default.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:39 pmthese tend to swing both ways and center around over regulation. But to me the biggest examples are when the federal government makes choices (backed by its purse) on emerging issues that are based on lobbying dollars or current fads - when these types of decisions are made at the federal level they are more harmful than at the state because other states can continue to innovate: my example here is wind power. A chosen "winner" due to lobbying not technology.
Can you see it now?


MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:47 pm My reading of the Constitution is a long list of the most important powers of any country agreed to under the document in Article 1, with much lesser powers delegated to the States. Not the other way around. The rest of the base document is mostly devoted to enumerating the various distribution of those federal powers among the 3 branches.

To the extent that states have some special protections, I see that not as "enshrining" but rather as a compromise necessitated to bring slave-holding states into the union. Original sin, not sacred.
well there is this pesky little bugger:

Tenth Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


I am a very big fan of that last part "or to the people" - the presumption that all rights reside with the individual unless specifically delegated to the States or the United States.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:26 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:39 pmthese tend to swing both ways and center around over regulation. But to me the biggest examples are when the federal government makes choices (backed by its purse) on emerging issues that are based on lobbying dollars or current fads - when these types of decisions are made at the federal level they are more harmful than at the state because other states can continue to innovate: my example here is wind power. A chosen "winner" due to lobbying not technology.
Can you see it now?


MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:47 pm My reading of the Constitution is a long list of the most important powers of any country agreed to under the document in Article 1, with much lesser powers delegated to the States. Not the other way around. The rest of the base document is mostly devoted to enumerating the various distribution of those federal powers among the 3 branches.

To the extent that states have some special protections, I see that not as "enshrining" but rather as a compromise necessitated to bring slave-holding states into the union. Original sin, not sacred.
well there is this pesky little bugger:

Tenth Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


I am a very big fan of that last part "or to the people" - the presumption that all rights reside with the individual unless specifically delegated to the States or the United States.
Unfortunately politicians aren’t for “or the people”…..what people put in place these Springing restrictive abortion laws? Whe deh at? Not referendums being voted on today….the springing laws….

No thanks. You never mentioned what policy/legislation passed in LA that was enforced in Des Moines? Asked three times. Give me three examples?
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:37 pm these tend to swing both ways and center around over regulation. But to me the biggest examples are when the federal government makes choices (backed by its purse) on emerging issues that are based on lobbying dollars or current fads - when these types of decisions are made at the federal level they are more harmful than at the state because other states can continue to innovate: my example here is wind power. A chosen "winner" due to lobbying not technology.
That's fine, so long as you remember that those subsidies are everywhere. A hundred or so years ago, private investors were on the hook for building rails, canals, and crude roads. Then the Government (Fed, State, local) came in and chose the combustion engine as the winner. So Ford's car? The taxpayers forked out trillions and trillions of dollars to make it functional.

So when people whine about EV subsidies, and conveniently forget that the gas car they are driving in is the most subsidized consumer good in our nation's history, with no second place.

Cities would have been far more dense, every city, no matter the size, would have mass transit----and rail would STILL be king for shipping goods in America.

In my experience, Americans LOVE subsidies, so long as THEY get them. Child tax credit? Why am I lining your pockets because you CHOSE to have a kid, while you're whining about me getting a tax break on a Tesla? (I don't own one, but....)

In short.........if you don't like subsidies? Tell your Senator to eliminate the subsidy YOU enjoy first, and then get to the one's I like. You first. ;)


a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm There is a LOT packed into this, that could be its own thread (and a good one). Let's start with what we mean by Des Moines needs that money. To do what? Provide a high quality of life or keep up on the global treadmill that is teetering on the brink because every country in the world has doubled down on how much they can borrow to pay for trinkets they throw at voters?
I'm saying that if you get rid of Federal subsidies, handouts, and cash to those who live in Des Moine? They could NOT survive in the global economy if they had to go it alone, financially. NY could. Cali could. Texas could. Easily half our State could not.....and the A#1 reason is that unlike every other first world economy, they don't have health care and training/education. So they'd have to figure out how to even have hospitals. Picture doing that without one cent of Federal money. (it can't be done).

a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm A whole lot worse has been done under national centralized governments - just ask the folks who were massacred under Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot..... past performance is no guarantee of future results....
I'd buy what you were selling if the SCOTUS didn't just tell women that they are wards of the State when they are pregnant, and the only way they can get their bodies back is if they get a good result in a vote.


a fan wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:33 pm This is a legitimate complaint. The simplest (and truest) answer to this is give it freely or don't give it at all. But there are two ways to look at this: 1) is the federal government is going to spend its money in the states exactly the way they choose
No. The simplest answer is: if you don't like DC calling the shots? Don't take their money. Then you can do as you please with your schools, for example, and not have DC tell you what to do.

But that's not what States are doing. They're taking MY money, and then complaining about strings being attached.

This is very simple. Don't take the money, and you don't have to do ANYTHING DC tells you to do, outside of following the Constitution.

Now given that, aren't you at least a little bit curious as to why these Republican run States who swear they want independence------are the very States that take the most money from DC?

You're assuming that Republican leaders are honest brokers, and aren't screwing the other States to get free stuff, while they enjoy low State taxes.

Bad assumption. The freedom you're asking for is there for them, any time they decide to stop taking the money. They want a California lifestyle, without the taxes. They're liars, in short.
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:26 pm
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:39 pmthese tend to swing both ways and center around over regulation. But to me the biggest examples are when the federal government makes choices (backed by its purse) on emerging issues that are based on lobbying dollars or current fads - when these types of decisions are made at the federal level they are more harmful than at the state because other states can continue to innovate: my example here is wind power. A chosen "winner" due to lobbying not technology.
Can you see it now?


Ahh yes thanks...wind power bothers you?
And that is done at a federal level and should have been at the state level?
Not sure I follow...permitting on state controlled lands is done by the state, right?...on federal lands the federal gov't?
Or do you mean federal tax incentives? (against federal taxes...) how would that be done at the state level better?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:47 pm My reading of the Constitution is a long list of the most important powers of any country agreed to under the document in Article 1, with much lesser powers delegated to the States. Not the other way around. The rest of the base document is mostly devoted to enumerating the various distribution of those federal powers among the 3 branches.

To the extent that states have some special protections, I see that not as "enshrining" but rather as a compromise necessitated to bring slave-holding states into the union. Original sin, not sacred.
well there is this pesky little bugger:

Tenth Amendment

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


I am a very big fan of that last part "or to the people" - the presumption that all rights reside with the individual unless specifically delegated to the States or the United States.
Absolutely...took all that base document and 9 other amendments before they got around to that one...making my point rather decisively that the constitution is definitely not "primarily dedicated to enshrining the power of the states juxtaposed to the limited powers granted the federal government."
Far from it.

Unfortunately, the construct of the clause doesn't exactly make clear that the individual is preeminent, though you and I would agree that would be the 'best' interpretation.

thanks for the wind power 'example' though I don't see where the conflict with the states is on that one, but happy to get educated as to that...and why it should be a states rights matter.

any others?

Again, any examples of where States are currently, not just historically, taking away rights from individuals?
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Re: ~46~ Unfit Uncle Joe Biden ~46~

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Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:47 pm You never mentioned what policy/legislation passed in LA that was enforced in Des Moines? Asked three times. Give me three examples?
you and MD are starting to get annoying.
HooDat wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:58 am With a little time I am sure I could give you a lot more than three policy decisions made in LA that impacted Des Moines. I am not saying these are bad, I am just saying that they were effectively foisted upon the country by LA's combination of buying power and ability to make local regulatory decisions (which ironically, is actually what I am calling for just in different packaging). Here are a few that pop to mind immediately:
- auto mpg standards
- lead free gasoline
- various labeling disclosures for potentially cancerous substances

Not sure what you are talking about here:
Typical Lax Dad wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:47 pm Unfortunately politicians are for “or the people”…..what people put in place these Springing restrictive abortion laws? Whe deh at? Not referendums being voted on today….the springing laws….
what exactly is a "Springing law"? My understanding of the "or to the people" line in the 10th amendment is that unless a right is taken from the people and given to the United States via the Constitution, or taken from them by their state, then all remaining rights are theirs - eg Freedom.
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