LaxPower Back-Up Stick

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:16 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:50 pm

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:32 pm Not possible. You guys have been telling us for the last decade that Benson can't coach offense.

This is truly among the dumbest of the many dumb false narratives perpetuated on this forum.

So if someone uses the search function for "Benson", you won't find Hop fans hitting Benson for things like not developing players?

I'm just making this up whole cloth?

Yes, a few Hopkins fans were not fans of Benson.

I’m not one of them. I repeatedly supported Benson as a good coach, and I have often praised his work with the 2014 team in particular.

I’m not at all surprised by Coach Benson’s success at Maryland. Offense wasn’t the real problem late in Coach Pietramala’s tenure.

DocBarrister

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:32 pm

jhu06 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:42 pm

primitiveskills wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:36 pm

Mr3Putt wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:30 pm Haha ! Where is everyone tonight?

Are we supposed to be overly concerned if Petro takes the DC job at "Cuse?

benson beat us 3 times this year.

Not possible. You guys have been telling us for the last decade that Benson can't coach offense.

reading the cuse reaction to the gait hire they sound absolutely crazy.
"sexist b-llsh-t."

The women made it to the championship game despite losing three starters this year. They have worked their @sses off for years to become one of the top programs in the country and fought through the toughest odds. And they are knocking on the door. But too bad ladies, women just aren’t as important as men. The boys need a coach now.

We could not be sending a stronger message that women’s sports are an afterthought and that we do not care about them. I am incredibly disappointed (and enraged) that Syracuse would make this decision.

We had plenty of coaches. We don’t have to rob from our own women’s team. This is just not a thing you can do. It’s not.

https://www.nunesmagician.com/2021/6/6/ ... eam-orange

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:22 am “You guys”
“Can’t coach offense”

He’s been criticized at times by a handful of posters over the years, as other coaches have been.

Ah, so I'm not crazy. Nice to hear.

Dude....some posters pummeled Benson.

And yes, you're right: not everyone. Just some. Stand corrected.

jhu06 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:42 pm

primitiveskills wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:36 pm

Mr3Putt wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:30 pm Haha ! Where is everyone tonight?

Are we supposed to be overly concerned if Petro takes the DC job at "Cuse?

benson beat us 3 times this year.

Benson's job at Maryland was don't screw the pooch. Mission accomplished

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:38 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:22 am “You guys”
“Can’t coach offense”

He’s been criticized at times by a handful of posters over the years, as other coaches have been.

Ah, so I'm not crazy. Nice to hear.

Dude....some posters pummeled Benson.

And yes, you're right: not everyone. Just some. Stand corrected.

The late Petro years gave rise to a lot of frustration. There were some terrible performances, including offensively. It was also frustrating to not see highly-touted recruits not develop into first team AA types (see, e.g. the Stanwicks, who were both of course really, really good, just not as good as we all hoped they might be). As a result, there were certainly complaints about Benson and the offense in the predecessor to this forum. That said, I think most of us actually realize that the biggest problems with these teams were on the defensive end. A lot of these teams were objectively bad defensively, without even taken into the account the given of bad goalie play. Which is why I find Petro as DC pretty unconvincing, but we'll certainly see.

How's this for a thought exercise - assume in the summer of 2019, Petro fires Dwan and brings in JK as DC and gives him the keys to the defense. Where's the program now?

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am For the love of god, both things can be problems. You said X’s and O’s had “nothing” to do with it. That is what I’m taking issue with.

Well, I guess I just disagree. If we were talking about any team but Hopkins, you wouldn't have a problem with my points. Lesser players are out of position, make bad decisions, and on and on. I should know. I was a bad player, relative to D1 talent.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am More than a goal was shaved off the per-game average (despite winning fewer faceoffs) while defensive efficiency improved from 34% to 30% (lower is better).

By the end of the year? Yes. But let's not forget this was a weak as heck schedule this year...and my point which will follow.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am No one said they turned it into an elite unit overnight or that every issue is suddenly fixed because the coach is different—again, you’re arguing against a point of view that doesn’t exist

There's no straw man here, my man. They finished #43 in goals against for D1. That's not even an AVERAGE defense. They're still below average...which tells you the problem was personnel, not coaching. THAT is my only, simple point. I don't understand why you're quibbling over this point.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am The same players last year had no idea what they were doing. Something was deeply wrong and we know now it wasn’t just that these kids were incapable of running a defense.

Ah, but it's not the same players, now is it? Milliman ran similar players as Petro for the bulk of the season, right? Then he made a major change. What was that major change?

nyjay wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:51 am
How's this for a thought exercise - assume in the summer of 2019, Petro fires Dwan and brings in JK as DC and gives him the keys to the defense. Where's the program now?

That was suggested numerous times on this forum over the years. It seemed Petro was too loyal to do anything like that. But it may have saved his job. His Faceoffs would have improved and his defense would have improved, provided he let JK run the D the way he wanted to. Lots of Head Coaches turn over their staff when things aren't going well. Loyalty, to both players and coaches among other factors, seemed to be his undoing in the end.
Hey, I'd love to see Cuse playing passive defense under Petro. Yes please!

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:15 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am The same players last year had no idea what they were doing. Something was deeply wrong and we know now it wasn’t just that these kids were incapable of running a defense.

Ah, but it's not the same players, now is it? Milliman ran similar players as Petro for the bulk of the season, right? Then he made a major change. What was that major change?

He switched goalies. Hop Defense in the BIG Tournament gave up 9.3 gpg not counting the garbage goal at the end.

jhu06 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:28 am

a fan wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:32 pm

jhu06 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:42 pm

primitiveskills wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:36 pm

Mr3Putt wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:30 pm Haha ! Where is everyone tonight?

Are we supposed to be overly concerned if Petro takes the DC job at "Cuse?

benson beat us 3 times this year.

Not possible. You guys have been telling us for the last decade that Benson can't coach offense.

reading the cuse reaction to the gait hire they sound absolutely crazy.
"sexist b-llsh-t."

The women made it to the championship game despite losing three starters this year. They have worked their @sses off for years to become one of the top programs in the country and fought through the toughest odds. And they are knocking on the door. But too bad ladies, women just aren’t as important as men. The boys need a coach now.

We could not be sending a stronger message that women’s sports are an afterthought and that we do not care about them. I am incredibly disappointed (and enraged) that Syracuse would make this decision.

We had plenty of coaches. We don’t have to rob from our own women’s team. This is just not a thing you can do. It’s not.

https://www.nunesmagician.com/2021/6/6/ ... eam-orange

Quite the comment thread.

I think what is lost in the discussion about defensive schemes versus defensive personnel is that the Head Coach or Defensive Coach, or both, are responsible for both elements, not just one. If it was more a matter of personnel, then recruitment and development are on the coaches. If scheme, it's on the coaches.

I'd say it was both scheme philosophy and personnel recruitment and development.

The question would then be whether lessons have been learned over the past decade that would lead to different recruitment decisions/development techniques and scheme philosophies going forward?

I think the recruitment aspect was two-fold, first the ER impact of recruiting defensemen and goalies and SSDM's way too early to gauge true potential. Ton of misses as a result. (I've argued ad nauseam that the goalie misses were due to being the first pick multiple times, way before development of the tender, burnout etc).

Secondly, the wide open, aggressive style of play adopted by some college programs became far more popular with the most athletic young defenders. That attracted more of the most athletic defenders to the programs best known for such style. Hopkins became known as a program where such was stifled. For old-timers, would Steve Mitchell have been attracted to Hop had he been a recruit in the last decade? If on the team, would he have been allowed to be aggressive and run the field?

A fresh start at Syracuse would be an opportunity to re-think the philosophy, communicate a new perspective. Recruit differently, green light aggressive athletic play. Doesn't mean don't teach good approaches, stick position, switch disciplines, slide disciplines, off ball play. Just means pressure, stick constantly in opponent's hands, baiting, jumping switches, backslides, attacking GB's, pushing pace down field, etc.

I wouldn't bet against Dave doing well.

re Benson, loved how intuitive he was as a player. So many 'garbage' goals. Back breakers. Never been a fan as a potential head coach, though.

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:15 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am For the love of god, both things can be problems. You said X’s and O’s had “nothing” to do with it. That is what I’m taking issue with.

Well, I guess I just disagree. If we were talking about any team but Hopkins, you wouldn't have a problem with my points. Lesser players are out of position, make bad decisions, and on and on. I should know. I was a bad player, relative to D1 talent.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am More than a goal was shaved off the per-game average (despite winning fewer faceoffs) while defensive efficiency improved from 34% to 30% (lower is better).

By the end of the year? Yes. But let's not forget this was a weak as heck schedule this year...and my point which will follow.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am No one said they turned it into an elite unit overnight or that every issue is suddenly fixed because the coach is different—again, you’re arguing against a point of view that doesn’t exist

There's no straw man here, my man. They finished #43 in goals against for D1. That's not even an AVERAGE defense. They're still below average...which tells you the problem was personnel, not coaching. THAT is my only, simple point. I don't understand why you're quibbling over this point.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am The same players last year had no idea what they were doing. Something was deeply wrong and we know now it wasn’t just that these kids were incapable of running a defense.

Ah, but it's not the same players, now is it? Milliman ran similar players as Petro for the bulk of the season, right? Then he made a major change. What was that major change?

No rational individual would describe a schedule that included 3 games against Maryland and 3 games against Rutgers as a “weak as heck schedule.”

DocBarrister

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:15 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am For the love of god, both things can be problems. You said X’s and O’s had “nothing” to do with it. That is what I’m taking issue with.

Well, I guess I just disagree. If we were talking about any team but Hopkins, you wouldn't have a problem with my points. Lesser players are out of position, make bad decisions, and on and on. I should know. I was a bad player, relative to D1 talent.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am More than a goal was shaved off the per-game average (despite winning fewer faceoffs) while defensive efficiency improved from 34% to 30% (lower is better).

By the end of the year? Yes. But let's not forget this was a weak as heck schedule this year...and my point which will follow.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am No one said they turned it into an elite unit overnight or that every issue is suddenly fixed because the coach is different—again, you’re arguing against a point of view that doesn’t exist

There's no straw man here, my man. They finished #43 in goals against for D1. That's not even an AVERAGE defense. They're still below average...which tells you the problem was personnel, not coaching. THAT is my only, simple point. I don't understand why you're quibbling over this point.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am The same players last year had no idea what they were doing. Something was deeply wrong and we know now it wasn’t just that these kids were incapable of running a defense.

Ah, but it's not the same players, now is it? Milliman ran similar players as Petro for the bulk of the season, right? Then he made a major change. What was that major change?

Sorry but…huh? What you are saying amounts to “it is not possible for one coach to be better at coaching defense than another.” I’m not saying talent plays no role. That’s why Koesterer wasn’t able to make them a top 10 unit immediately. But the improvement, while not good enough, still existed. And I am attributing that to coaching.

As for the schedule, I don’t necessarily agree about that either. There were no ACC teams, sure, but there also weren’t the usual cupcakes either. And they had to play the runner-up three times and a quarterfinalist another three times. That’s already half the schedule. They didn’t have the luxury of padding stats against Mercer and Air Force either. On balance was it the toughest schedule in the country? No. But it was not “weak as heck.” Again—half their games were against top 8 teams. That’s not all that different from the ACC this year and I’d argue the lesser half of Hop’s schedule (Mich, OSU, PSU) was tougher than that of some (not all) ACCs.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:02 am Sorry but…huh? What you are saying amounts to “it is not possible for one coach to be better at coaching defense than another.” I’m not saying talent plays no role. That’s why Koesterer wasn’t able to make them a top 10 unit immediately. But the improvement, while not good enough, still existed. And I am attributing that to coaching.

And I'm attributing that to personnel change. Milliman, as you know, started playing an entire line of freshman middies....and that's when the entire team started looking better. That's one heckuva coincidence.

My position with Hopkins is that their offenses have been substandard for years, putting far too much pressure on their D. When the offense scores efficiently, the D rests more....yada yada yada.

If Hopkins suddenly has three real offensive threats at midfield in 2022---can't remember the last time that happened-----it would transform their entire team. We'll see. So much is up in the air with top teams in terms of graduation---which players finally leave campus. It's hard to gauge how good those frosh middie are right now, relative to other teams' talent.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:02 am As for the schedule, I don’t necessarily agree about that either. There were no ACC teams, sure, but there also weren’t the usual cupcakes either. And they had to play the runner-up three times and a quarterfinalist another three times. That’s already half the schedule.

Yes. And the other half were against teams with losing records. This is not Hopkins' normally brutal top 5 SOS....how about we just agree on that point?

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:30 am

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:15 am

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:52 am The same players last year had no idea what they were doing. Something was deeply wrong and we know now it wasn’t just that these kids were incapable of running a defense.

Ah, but it's not the same players, now is it? Milliman ran similar players as Petro for the bulk of the season, right? Then he made a major change. What was that major change?

He switched goalies. Hop Defense in the BIG Tournament gave up 9.3 gpg not counting the garbage goal at the end.

And started playing the line of Fresh middies, among other changes.

a fan wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:14 pm

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:02 am Sorry but…huh? What you are saying amounts to “it is not possible for one coach to be better at coaching defense than another.” I’m not saying talent plays no role. That’s why Koesterer wasn’t able to make them a top 10 unit immediately. But the improvement, while not good enough, still existed. And I am attributing that to coaching.

And I'm attributing that to personnel change.

You're attributing Hop defensemen timing their slides and recoveries much better this year than last to a few games at the end of the year in which they deployed an all-freshman second midfield?

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:24 am
A fresh start at Syracuse would be an opportunity to re-think the philosophy, communicate a new perspective. Recruit differently, green light aggressive athletic play. Doesn't mean don't teach good approaches, stick position, switch disciplines, slide disciplines, off ball play. Just means pressure, stick constantly in opponent's hands, baiting, jumping switches, backslides, attacking GB's, pushing pace down field, etc.

I wouldn't bet against Dave doing well.

DP is very very stubborn. He played the same style when he was coaching D for the USA team and they ended up losing to Canada. They fell behind and then had to start playing aggressive D at the end. Too little too late. If they had been playing that way the whole game...maybe a different outcome.
If anyone can reason with him though, it's probably Gary Gait. I suspect a discussion along those lines would occur before any hiring decisions at Cuse.
Don't think passive D is in SU's DNA and Petro would not be a good fit there unless he's willing to change his philosophy. Maybe current circumstances are a wakeup call.

HopFan16 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:27 pm You're attributing Hop defensemen timing their slides and recoveries much better this year than last to a few games at the end of the year in which they deployed an all-freshman second midfield?

Yes. Partially.

How many games did Hop look okay by halftime----only for the bottom to fall out when your crew got tired, and started making mistakes?

Examples? Tied at half against first game against Maryland. Ahead at the half first game against Rutgers. All ended in blowouts. I'm not crazy to suggest that they starters got shagged, and started making mistakes.

Then near the end of the season, Milliman starts playing an entire middie line that can actually score? No more 4th quarter blowouts....fewer D mistakes. It's not unreasonable to point at this truly unusual adjustment of starting an entire line of freshman so late in the year....and suggest that this had effects all over the field.

Sagittarius A* wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:28 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:24 am
A fresh start at Syracuse would be an opportunity to re-think the philosophy, communicate a new perspective. Recruit differently, green light aggressive athletic play. Doesn't mean don't teach good approaches, stick position, switch disciplines, slide disciplines, off ball play. Just means pressure, stick constantly in opponent's hands, baiting, jumping switches, backslides, attacking GB's, pushing pace down field, etc.

I wouldn't bet against Dave doing well.

DP is very very stubborn. He played the same style when he was coaching D for the USA team and they ended up losing to Canada. They fell behind and then had to start playing aggressive D at the end. Too little too late. If they had been playing that way the whole game...maybe a different outcome.
If anyone can reason with him though, it's probably Gary Gait. I suspect a discussion along those lines would occur before any hiring decisions at Cuse.
Don't think passive D is in SU's DNA and Petro would not be a good fit there unless he's willing to change his philosophy. Maybe current circumstances are a wakeup call.

The 'wake up call' would be the rationale.
I agree that hiring him without that discussion wouldn't be good...

Now, you do need the horses to run that style, so the reason why a fresh start has potential is that this can be declared going in, by both Gary and Dave, and the recruiting can reflect it going forward.

Trying to claim a new style at Hop without at least a change in staff just wasn't going to be believed.

It would be interesting to see Dave adopt this, as he himself was quite the beast in his own personal style of play, and he might well really enjoy it...the tough part is being tolerant of mistakes. That requires a near total mindset change for him. I dunno if he could do that, but he's had some time to reflect...

Ultimately, I think that this is a 'players' game', so leaning into allowing players be creative and aggressive brings out their very best. But it also means lots of mistakes, and some 'chaos', as a result...building the assumption of that into a defense means that players need to be able to respond well when the chaos happens...

Practicing for chaos is a very different mindset than practicing for control.

Sagittarius.

Dave Huntley predicted the Canadian win if memory serves. Quoting “ because the American attack men are pu***** “ the Canadians were confident.

I would add Cude stopped playing it’s historical brand of defense more than a decade ago.

You don’t win titles without the athletes. Some players just never master the scheme or the position well enough to become top level D-1 level. I would not care to make the argument that Hopkins was equal on the defensive end of the die if to the offenses they were matched against.