How is New Shot Clock and Dive Rule going n Fall Ball

[molo]

Judging from scores--I didn't see any of the games--it looks like it will be harder to avoid blowouts in mismatches. The game that intrigued me most was Maryland-Bucknell since it pitted one of the three best teams against a solid but weaker team. From the little that I heard, it seemed that while the outcome was never in doubt, the game never got out of hand.
I believe Bernhardt had a dive call go against him in the first period.
Unless I'm pleasantly mistaken, I won't be able to see the Duke game on espn tonight, but my prediction based on last night and this afternoon's results is that the final will be something like that of the UNC-Mercer game. In mismatches, it is going to be much harder for overmatched coaches to slow the game down by holding the ball or playing zone on d, and coaches of stronger teams will have a harder time artificially making the games look closer than they were with practices like the 19 goal rule.
My point of reference is from coaching a high school team with a schedule that included some teams that were considerably weaker than we were and a few that were much better. The good teams routed us, and against the weak teams, we weren't skilled enough to slow the game down without turning it over. The new rules will accomplish for the good teams what lack of stick skills did for us against weaker teams. I don't think, for example, that Vermont intended to embarrass Utah. I just don't think they could slow the tempo done to such a degree that they could keep the score under 21. It's a little different from my hs experience because we had a small squad with few subs and several kids who were better athletes than stickhandler, rendering the game run and gun by default, but the results could be similar.

[runrussellrun]

Glad the shotclock freed up the zebras mind to actually call penalties.......excepting the MD vs Bucknell where essentially no penalities were called.

This is DIV one........score differential would NEVAH be on this guys mind. When would YOU coaches put in the 4th line middies? To start the 3rd quarter? and, with what lead margin. 4 goals? 7? 10?

[bearlaxfan]

The PC/BU game (2 evenly matched teams) saw, IIRC, 1 20sec violation, 2 dives for goals, 1 unsuccessful dive attempt (no penalty, just a crease violation), and no roll-the-ball-into-the-corner-as-clock-expires events; teams would push the ball out front and take shots you wouldn't see last year. A seeming lot (35%+/-?)of goalie-initiated or endline clears got over midfield with about 65seconds on the clock. D to D for 1 pass; another crossfield pass and the clear had to be rushed. A lot more midfield action than otherwise, especially within 7 yards of midline. BU goalie in particular was aggressive with outlets and put his mids in some tough spots. Fortunately the refs let these midfield scrums play out. Except for clear and blatent pushes, they let the players play. I could forsee other crews calling a similar game tighter, and slowing down the game considerably by calling 'high school' pushing rules instead of being circumspect.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The PC/BU game (2 evenly matched teams) saw, IIRC, 1 20sec violation, 2 dives for goals, 1 unsuccessful dive attempt (no penalty, just a crease violation), and no roll-the-ball-into-the-corner-as-clock-expires events; teams would push the ball out front and take shots you wouldn't see last year. A seeming lot (35%+/-?)of goalie-initiated or endline clears got over midfield with about 65seconds on the clock. D to D for 1 pass; another crossfield pass and the clear had to be rushed. A lot more midfield action than otherwise, especially within 7 yards of midline. BU goalie in particular was aggressive with outlets and put his mids in some tough spots. Fortunately the refs let these midfield scrums play out. Except for clear and blatent pushes, they let the players play. I could forsee other crews calling a similar game tighter, and slowing down the game considerably by calling 'high school' pushing rules instead of being circumspect.

Are those good shots or just shots taken for the sake of shooting?

[bearlaxfan]

Most just shots to avoid the roll-to-the-corner scenario. If they got through, 'cans of corn' for the goalies. Some got blocked in front, and just by coincidence I think, this game the D came up with these so there were no 80sec calls that I remember. Also, most were high-to-high I guess because there was little time to adjust position from the catch to the shot as long as the D was in position on the shooter.

[fastgame]

This opening week, there were 12 games played. Don't know if the shot clock is impacting the # of goals scored, but as some have already mentioned it seems the # of saves was impacted. If my math is correct, in these 12 contests there were 247 Goals scored and 310 Saves.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Most just shots to avoid the roll-to-the-corner scenario. If they got through, 'cans of corn' for the goalies. Some got blocked in front, and just by coincidence I think, this game the D came up with these so there were no 80sec calls that I remember. Also, most were high-to-high I guess because there was little time to adjust position from the catch to the shot as long as the D was in position on the shooter.

How many fast break goals did you see?

[runrussellrun]

The PC/BU game (2 evenly matched teams) saw, IIRC, 1 20sec violation, 2 dives for goals, 1 unsuccessful dive attempt (no penalty, just a crease violation), and no roll-the-ball-into-the-corner-as-clock-expires events; teams would push the ball out front and take shots you wouldn't see last year. A seeming lot (35%+/-?)of goalie-initiated or endline clears got over midfield with about 65seconds on the clock. D to D for 1 pass; another crossfield pass and the clear had to be rushed. A lot more midfield action than otherwise, especially within 7 yards of midline. BU goalie in particular was aggressive with outlets and put his mids in some tough spots. Fortunately the refs let these midfield scrums play out. Except for clear and blatent pushes, they let the players play. I could forsee other crews calling a similar game tighter, and slowing down the game considerably by calling 'high school' pushing rules instead of being circumspect.

Are those good shots or just shots taken for the sake of shooting?

Well, we can certainly find video evidence of players taking shots, in a Championship game no less, when the shooter has one foot OUTSIDE the restraining line, a little off to the left, making it a 22-23 yard shot. Plenty of those. And bring back the shallow pocket sticks while we're taking those distant shots. Goalies are WAY better than they were in the 1980's.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The PC/BU game (2 evenly matched teams) saw, IIRC, 1 20sec violation, 2 dives for goals, 1 unsuccessful dive attempt (no penalty, just a crease violation), and no roll-the-ball-into-the-corner-as-clock-expires events; teams would push the ball out front and take shots you wouldn't see last year. A seeming lot (35%+/-?)of goalie-initiated or endline clears got over midfield with about 65seconds on the clock. D to D for 1 pass; another crossfield pass and the clear had to be rushed. A lot more midfield action than otherwise, especially within 7 yards of midline. BU goalie in particular was aggressive with outlets and put his mids in some tough spots. Fortunately the refs let these midfield scrums play out. Except for clear and blatent pushes, they let the players play. I could forsee other crews calling a similar game tighter, and slowing down the game considerably by calling 'high school' pushing rules instead of being circumspect.

Are those good shots or just shots taken for the sake of shooting?

Well, we can certainly find video evidence of players taking shots, in a Championship game no less, when the shooter has one foot OUTSIDE the restraining line, a little off to the left, making it a 22-23 yard shot. Plenty of those. And bring back the shallow pocket sticks while we're taking those distant shots. Goalies are WAY better than they were in the 1980's.

Yeah, the 80's was great lacrosse.



possessions where cheap.... like in the box game, actually.

[bearlaxfan]

If you mean 'goals caused in some way by the shot clock' instead of 'fast break goals', maybe 2, 3 total. The ball was on the ground a lot as the teams pressed to clear against the rides (first game of the year, 35degrees and overcast factor in also). This led to some unsettled goals. If they cleared smoothly, it was business as usual on O EXCEPT there was real emphasis on getting guys on and off quickly and getting into the offense without a lot of what the late Johnny Most called "fiddling and diddling". I was seated near the BU sub box and things were hectic and the coaching oversite there was constant. Think how the subs worked on a fast or slow break last year and most every change had the same impetus with the clock.

Both teams Ds pressed out as the clock wound down but the offenses- at this point in the season- weren't able to take advantage. They didn't pack it in and play it safe as the clock wound down; I think that would give the O too much potential to get an outside shot on goal for a clock reset.
My impression, after seeing these teams here in Pvd for I think the third time, is that there was much more up-and-down than previous games. Now how much has to do with personnel changes over time vs the clock? IDK.

[Typical Lax Dad]

If you mean 'goals caused in some way by the shot clock' instead of 'fast break goals', maybe 2, 3 total. The ball was on the ground a lot as the teams pressed to clear against the rides (first game of the year, 35degrees and overcast factor in also). This led to some unsettled goals. If they cleared smoothly, it was business as usual on O EXCEPT there was real emphasis on getting guys on and off quickly and getting into the offense without a lot of what the late Johnny Most called "fiddling and diddling". I was seated near the BU sub box and things were hectic and the coaching oversite there was constant. Think how the subs worked on a fast or slow break last year and most every change had the same impetus with the clock.

Both teams Ds pressed out as the clock wound down but the offenses- at this point in the season- weren't able to take advantage. They didn't pack it in and play it safe as the clock wound down; I think that would give the O too much potential to get an outside shot on goal for a clock reset.
My impression, after seeing these teams here in Pvd for I think the third time, is that there was much more up-and-down than previous games. Now how much has to do with personnel changes over time vs the clock? IDK.

Thanks. I was wondering about true fast breaks but your feedback is very good. After the next two weeks, we will have a better sample size. 80 seconds is better than 60 for college and should add less of an artificial pace of play. That was a good game.

[molo]

I didn't see the afternoon games but did catch Duke-Furman in the evening. Duke ran two offensive midfields about equally. The sub patterns were pretty much the way they would have been in the past, but there was far less superfluous passing. In addition, all middies were involved in the clearing game. It was harder to be a "play offense and get off middie." I think teams that try to play four and five attackmen at a time are going to be at a disadvantage. There will still be offensive and defensive middies, but the offensive middies will be more involved in transition and it will be harder to get by with a short bench and standing around on offense.
Q said Bucknell used just 17 players. I didn't see the game, but that to me means 10 starters, a second midfield, a rope unit, and a FOGO. With the clock, I don't see how teams can play fewer than 19 with regularity. That would be the aforementioned group plus a third dm and a second lsm, which is still pretty bare bones. Throw in a fourth attackman, a second FOGO, a fourth dm, or a fourth close dman/emd specialist, and in my view you need 20 reliable players to compete. Assuring that more men get meaningful pt could be a positive unintended consequence of the clock.
Never big on the dive, I'm just shocked that the officials are having trouble with it!

[ctbagataway]

From the games I watched, what was missing (but not missed) was offenses passing it around the perimeter twice before getting into their set. Good riddance. We know you can catch and throw. Less time wasted getting after it.

[a fan]

Assuring that more men get meaningful pt could be a positive unintended consequence of the clock.

That's great to hear....this has always been a player's sport.

[10stone5]

From the games I watched, what was missing (but not missed) was offenses passing it around the perimeter twice before getting into their set. Good riddance. We know you can catch and throw. Less time wasted getting after it.

Good observation and yes, good to hear.

[DaneFan]

Only have seen a scrimmage live, but while the shot clock wasn't a factor, I think only one violation and no clearing violations, watching both teams seemed a little more urgent about getting the ball into the offensive zone than they had too which resulted in an errant pass or two. There was definitely very little if any pass around the horn a few times.

I wouldn't have expected any game planning, but it was Colgate's final scrimmage and didn't see them hop into a zone or do anything exotic in their riding game.

I would say that overall the intensity was very high and the game had a great pace.

[runrussellrun]

The PC/BU game (2 evenly matched teams) saw, IIRC, 1 20sec violation, 2 dives for goals, 1 unsuccessful dive attempt (no penalty, just a crease violation), and no roll-the-ball-into-the-corner-as-clock-expires events; teams would push the ball out front and take shots you wouldn't see last year. A seeming lot (35%+/-?)of goalie-initiated or endline clears got over midfield with about 65seconds on the clock. D to D for 1 pass; another crossfield pass and the clear had to be rushed. A lot more midfield action than otherwise, especially within 7 yards of midline. BU goalie in particular was aggressive with outlets and put his mids in some tough spots. Fortunately the refs let these midfield scrums play out. Except for clear and blatent pushes, they let the players play. I could forsee other crews calling a similar game tighter, and slowing down the game considerably by calling 'high school' pushing rules instead of being circumspect.

Are those good shots or just shots taken for the sake of shooting?

Well, we can certainly find video evidence of players taking shots, in a Championship game no less, when the shooter has one foot OUTSIDE the restraining line, a little off to the left, making it a 22-23 yard shot. Plenty of those. And bring back the shallow pocket sticks while we're taking those distant shots. Goalies are WAY better than they were in the 1980's.

Yeah, the 80's was great lacrosse.



possessions where cheap.... like in the box game, actually.

Thank you for making my point......first shot was taken 18 yards away. 2 yards further back than the 16 that is the 2 point MLL shot.
Low percentage.

about 100 other college players that had more than 3 years experience NOT playing in this game. (NO ONE played in HS back in the 70's-80's, let alone 2nd or 3rd graders.

The 80's America's Cup races were great too.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The PC/BU game (2 evenly matched teams) saw, IIRC, 1 20sec violation, 2 dives for goals, 1 unsuccessful dive attempt (no penalty, just a crease violation), and no roll-the-ball-into-the-corner-as-clock-expires events; teams would push the ball out front and take shots you wouldn't see last year. A seeming lot (35%+/-?)of goalie-initiated or endline clears got over midfield with about 65seconds on the clock. D to D for 1 pass; another crossfield pass and the clear had to be rushed. A lot more midfield action than otherwise, especially within 7 yards of midline. BU goalie in particular was aggressive with outlets and put his mids in some tough spots. Fortunately the refs let these midfield scrums play out. Except for clear and blatent pushes, they let the players play. I could forsee other crews calling a similar game tighter, and slowing down the game considerably by calling 'high school' pushing rules instead of being circumspect.

Are those good shots or just shots taken for the sake of shooting?

Well, we can certainly find video evidence of players taking shots, in a Championship game no less, when the shooter has one foot OUTSIDE the restraining line, a little off to the left, making it a 22-23 yard shot. Plenty of those. And bring back the shallow pocket sticks while we're taking those distant shots. Goalies are WAY better than they were in the 1980's.

Yeah, the 80's was great lacrosse.



possessions where cheap.... like in the box game, actually.

Thank you for making my point......first shot was taken 18 yards away. 2 yards further back than the 16 that is the 2 point MLL shot.
Low percentage.

about 100 other college players that had more than 3 years experience NOT playing in this game. (NO ONE played in HS back in the 70's-80's, let alone 2nd or 3rd graders.

The 80's America's Cup races were great too.

Those were my glory days.

[Typical Lax Dad]

The shorter box has been impactful from what I have seen so far.

[xxxxxxx]

This is a good analysis of the new rules so far. I agree the 20 seconds to clear is a game changer as teams have to make a decision to ride hard or get in the d mids, both option have pros and cons. It will be interesting to see how it evolves. The dive could be a problem, so far the officials are having a hard time calling it. The 80/60 seconds to shoot looks fine so far.

https://www.laxsportsnetwork.com/videos ... ncaa-rules