SCOTUS

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Peter Brown
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Peter Brown »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:37 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:31 pm There’s literally no far left position that the FLP here disagree with, so….what should we call it?
What should we call it? I'd call it: Pete making infantile strawmen, and claiming that anything he doesn't personally like "far left".

So making government 50%+ bigger in four years, and borrowing every penny to EXPLODE the size of government ?

Oh, that's not far left. Why? Oh, because "Pete sez so".

This forum is the first time in your life that you've had your tissue paper thin "values" challenged, Pete. It's HILARIOUS smelling the burning toast as you try and reconcile the reality that you were taught by socialist at a Big Government University....and this NEVER occurred to you until you arrived here.

But sure, FLP's, Pete. You're the biggest not-so-closeted liberal on the board.


So…the FLP here are far left progressives, then? I just don’t know any position that the FLP here take which is in opposition to far left progressives. Happy to be corrected!

(I couldn’t tell because your post was all about me. The irony).
a fan
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by a fan »

Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:45 pm So…the FLP here are far left progressives, then? I just don’t know any position that the FLP here take which is in opposition to far left progressives. Happy to be corrected!
Yeah.....no you're not.
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:26 pm (I couldn’t tell because your post was all about me. The irony).
First thing you've gotten right in weeks. Yes, the post was about you and the fact that you're more of a FLP than most here.

You went to the socialists and Big Government for your education, Pete. I didn't, and neither did most here. We went private.

You cheered while Trump exploded the size of Government by over 50%, and bragged about the results....the real conservatives here complained.

You cheered while DeSantis made Florida's Big Government even bigger, breaking all previous spending records....just like a FLP.

You think that passing laws to stick it to gays makes you a conservative. Nope. That makes you a Big Government liberal, who wants Big Government to solve all your fake problems.

You're the biggest Big Government lib on the Board, Pete. Please, continue....
Peter Brown
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Peter Brown »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:40 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:35 pm Uhhhh, I guess I was unaware that left lunatic public school teachers itching to tell 3 year old kids about the birds and bees constituted ‘free speech’
Nope. You can keep telling yourself that's what the bill sez again and again and again.

But the folks here got a far, far better education than you obviously slept through at UFLorida, and can actually read Bills.
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:26 pm I really don’t understand the new speech rules!!
Yes. We know. What YOU think free speech means is: Pete gets to say anything he wants. Anyone else? Oh, we sue "those people" for breaking my new, shiny law that restricts speech.


I feel like you need to do a better job convincing me that you understand the bill better than the dozens of local Florida lawyers whose opinions of it I’ve read in my local news. Always happy to change my mind.

In the meantime, no school discussions of sex to kids 3-8. I hope we all agree this is good?
JoeMauer89
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by JoeMauer89 »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
Peter Brown
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Peter Brown »

a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:52 pm
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:45 pm So…the FLP here are far left progressives, then? I just don’t know any position that the FLP here take which is in opposition to far left progressives. Happy to be corrected!
Yeah.....no you're not.
Peter Brown wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:26 pm (I couldn’t tell because your post was all about me. The irony).
First thing you've gotten right in weeks. Yes, the post was about you and the fact that you're more of a FLP than most here.

You went to the socialists and Big Government for your education, Pete. I didn't, and neither did most here. We went private.

You cheered while Trump exploded the size of Government by over 50%, and bragged about the results....the real conservatives here complained.

You cheered while DeSantis made Florida's Big Government even bigger, breaking all previous spending records....just like a FLP.

You think that passing laws to stick it to gays makes you a conservative. Nope. That makes you a Big Government liberal, who wants Big Government to solve all your fake problems.

You're the biggest Big Government lib on the Board, Pete. Please, continue....


Earlier today MD said it was bad form to write about posters but not the subject.
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
The Court issued 28 "emergency" shadow docket orders during the Trump administration to block adverse lower-court rulings as the government mounted an appeal. By comparison, the Court issued four such orders under presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama combined. Google first.
JoeMauer89
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by JoeMauer89 »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:12 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
The Court issued 28 "emergency" shadow docket orders during the Trump administration to block adverse lower-court rulings as the government mounted an appeal. By comparison, the Court issued four such orders under presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama combined. Google first.
Right, you just proved my point. Before Bush and Obama, was it done it all? Common would be if this was practice dating 20,30 or 40 years back. Not just from Trumps presidency until now. That's not common, it's RECENT. I'll google first, if AND when you take your emotion (hatred for a certain president) out of the discussion. :lol: :lol:

Joe
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dislaxxic
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by dislaxxic »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:44 pm Apologize in advance for the length of this post.
WOW! That is a flat-out EXCELLENT post, seacoaster...thanks so much for taking the time to lay out what is happening here.

After reading that, i wonder what Joe has to say about the "motives" of the 5 conservatives that approved this stay...? Joe? Too deep?

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:15 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:12 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
The Court issued 28 "emergency" shadow docket orders during the Trump administration to block adverse lower-court rulings as the government mounted an appeal. By comparison, the Court issued four such orders under presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama combined. Google first.
Right, you just proved my point. Before Bush and Obama, was it done it all? Common would be if this was practice dating 20,30 or 40 years back. Not just from Trumps presidency until now. That's not common, it's RECENT. I'll google first, if AND when you take your emotion (hatred for a certain president) out of the discussion. :lol: :lol:

Joe
Umm, no, I did not prove your point. It shows that the incidence of the Court resorting to the shadow docket, to take cases out of the ordinary process, is dramatically higher than at any time since 1790. It shows that this Court -- the one we have had for the last four years -- has decoupled itself from the usual process. What was common was a process that was used, even for dramatically important cases, for a couple of hundred years, and which has now given way to a Court majority willing to cherry pick cases and short circuit them.

I trust you will still figure out a way to have a weird personal grievance about what is being discussed. I really don't understand the strange comment about a "certain president." I am just trying to explain my perspective on why folks who follow the Court professionally are very concerned about this practice, and the extensive increase in its use. I'm trying to lend something to a discussion.
Peter Brown
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Peter Brown »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:35 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:15 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:12 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
The Court issued 28 "emergency" shadow docket orders during the Trump administration to block adverse lower-court rulings as the government mounted an appeal. By comparison, the Court issued four such orders under presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama combined. Google first.
Right, you just proved my point. Before Bush and Obama, was it done it all? Common would be if this was practice dating 20,30 or 40 years back. Not just from Trumps presidency until now. That's not common, it's RECENT. I'll google first, if AND when you take your emotion (hatred for a certain president) out of the discussion. :lol: :lol:

Joe
Umm, no, I did not prove your point. It shows that the incidence of the Court resorting to the shadow docket, to take cases out of the ordinary process, is dramatically higher than at any time since 1790. It shows that this Court -- the one we have had for the last four years -- has decoupled itself from the usual process. What was common was a process that was used, even for dramatically important cases, for a couple of hundred years, and which has now given way to a Court majority willing to cherry pick cases and short circuit them.

I trust you will still figure out a way to have a weird personal grievance about what is being discussed. I really don't understand the strange comment about a "certain president." I am just trying to explain my perspective on why folks who follow the Court professionally are very concerned about this practice, and the extensive increase in its use. I'm trying to lend something to a discussion.


First of all, appreciate the prior post explaining what you see. You spent time and thought it through, and that deserves gratitude.

Here’s the problem though. The looniest lunatics and most anti American folks who reside in this great country are Democrats. Democrats cheered on riots and looting. They ignore violent crime and it’s effect on Americans. They push fur positively unimaginable things like teaching sex to schoolchildren and legalizing abortion to the very day of delivery. A majority prefer socialism to capitalism. A significant majority don’t support either 1A or 2A. Most would gladly institute a wealth tax. Nearly all are irate that some states refuse to levy an income tax.

Is it really any wonder we mock them rather than carefully listen to them?

So, when the time comes when the Left has a truly legitimate beef with a creeping issue affecting us, our first instinct is to simply believe this is yet another leftist histrionics. The odds are always good that’s the case. But here, in this case of the shadow docket, I would like to know more. My guess is there is a very good reason for the increased use and unless someone on the court talks, it’s hard to know what that reason is. I might surmise it has to do with efficiency of time.
Last edited by Peter Brown on Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
Sheesh, Joe...look it up...you're simply wrong. The use has exploded since 2017. To be helpful, I linked to a short primer...did you bother to read it?
JoeMauer89
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by JoeMauer89 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:55 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
Sheesh, Joe...look it up...you're simply wrong. The use has exploded since 2017. To be helpful, I linked to a short primer...did you bother to read it?
Do you realize that part of discussion is the back and forth interaction between two people. Even if that back and forth veers from the actually point at hand. Stop with this f**king, "Do you have anything to contribute to the conversation" crap. My contribution is trying to UNDERSTAND why you post the way you do. You cannot have a control over everything in life, I know that frightens you, but it's the way life is. You are the definition of a control freak. You live in your own reality. How's Florida treating you? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:55 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
Sheesh, Joe...look it up...you're simply wrong. The use has exploded since 2017. To be helpful, I linked to a short primer...did you bother to read it?
Do you realize that part of discussion is the back and forth interaction between two people. Even if that back and forth veers from the actually point at hand. Stop with this f**king, "Do you have anything to contribute to the conversation" crap. My contribution is trying to UNDERSTAND why you post the way you do. You cannot have a control over everything in life, I know that frightens you, but it's the way life is. You are the definition of a control freak. You live in your own reality. How's Florida treating you? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe
again, nothing, nada.

It's not a discussion to just offer up insults, nothing on the actual topic. You haven't "veered from the topic", you're refused to engage with the reality of the topic.

That's your choice, but it's not mine.
And that confuses you, so you just throw insults?
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dislaxxic
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by dislaxxic »

Boycott a different brand of stupid. hey, we tried.

..
"The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog." - Calvin, to Hobbes
JoeMauer89
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by JoeMauer89 »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:28 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:10 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:55 pm
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:56 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am
JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:32 am I'm not going to make that jump you are and think that the Shadow Docket is going to become a comment occurrence. If that's what your hinting at, and it sure seems that way, that's a whole lot of projection on your part.
It is a common occurrence, Joe. Dis spelled it out for you. Are you on board with this little game, or not?
Common occurrence means within the past few years? Common not meaning for the past 20, 30, 40 years? Liberal in the use of common with something with as long a history as the Supreme Court. Not black and white, my friend.

Joe
Sheesh, Joe...look it up...you're simply wrong. The use has exploded since 2017. To be helpful, I linked to a short primer...did you bother to read it?
Do you realize that part of discussion is the back and forth interaction between two people. Even if that back and forth veers from the actually point at hand. Stop with this f**king, "Do you have anything to contribute to the conversation" crap. My contribution is trying to UNDERSTAND why you post the way you do. You cannot have a control over everything in life, I know that frightens you, but it's the way life is. You are the definition of a control freak. You live in your own reality. How's Florida treating you? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe
again, nothing, nada.

It's not a discussion to just offer up insults, nothing on the actual topic. You haven't "veered from the topic", you're refused to engage with the reality of the topic.

That's your choice, but it's not mine.
And that confuses you, so you just throw insults?
If I was insulting you, you would know it. Do you really think we live in a world where we can control what is said to one another? It's how you react to it that shows the person you are. I could care less what the "rules" are, I'm talking about real-life. Shows me all I need to know about you. "Privileged", I feel the need to control what every person says to me or about a certain topic because I don't agree with it or it doesn't align with my admittedly narrow-minded ideology. I'm moving on. It's like trying to run through a Kevlar door. You will never learn. :lol: :lol:

Joe
Seacoaster(1)
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

Joe, I gotta say, we are trying to talk about the thread topic, and you just want to excoriate MDLaxFan personally. It's just really weird. He's said nothing unkind or disrespectful to you; on the contrary, he remains unfailingly polite even though you have called him a control freak and a bunch of other less than flattering things. You seem to parachute into discussions, or at least attempts at discussion, and take issue with the way people are discussing. Could the real issue be...you?
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Kismet
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by Kismet »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:49 pm Joe, I gotta say, we are trying to talk about the thread topic, and you just want to excoriate MDLaxFan personally. It's just really weird. He's said nothing unkind or disrespectful to you; on the contrary, he remains unfailingly polite even though you have called him a control freak and a bunch of other less than flattering things. You seem to parachute into discussions, or at least attempts at discussion, and take issue with the way people are discussing. Could the real issue be...you?
BINGO! We have all been here before with the professor. I'm betting he doesn't have enough self-control and will eventually lose it and get himself another vacation. :P

On the confirmation of Judge Jackson, many Republicans waled out of the chamber as the vote tally was announced. Such sore losers.
The Senate should consider naps and making jelly as activities - just like in a similar place - KINDERGARTEN. :oops: Her addition to the court changes NADA so they could have been magnanimous but nope.

Lindsey Graham had to vote from the cloakroom as he forgot to wear a TIE!!!!
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cradleandshoot
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:44 pm Apologize in advance for the length of this post.

The problem with the so-called shadow docket and the Court's "emergency" intervention into the clean water case is best understood by comparing the the normal process by which a case reaches the Supreme Court and is then adjudicated, and the shadow docket process. Normally, as you all likely know, the Court takes cases from the final judgments of the Courts of Appeal. Those cases have been, therefore, through the trial court, which, with the litigants, is invested with the duty to develop the record of the facts that underlie the legal issues being contested. The case is then briefed and argued to the federal district judge. A reasoned decision is provided by the court. Then the record on appeal is bundled together, and the Court of Appeals examines the case for any errors of law, or misapprehension of the facts, by the lower court. They schedule briefing and hold arguments, and then issue a decision, that ultimately gets appealed to the Supreme Court. The Court then accepts the appeal -- with the full record on appeal, and all or nearly all of the issues ventilated very thoroughly, as you might expect in a case about, say, an executive agency's power to regulate matters bearing on the environment and water quality.

The shadow docket short circuits this well-known and empirically sound, time-honored process of adjudicating abstruse questions of federal statutory and constitutional law. In the case that started this recent thread/series of comments, there is no record on appeal; the case has only just reached the Court of Appeals, and that appeal is actually pending. In steps the Supreme Court, using powers that, under a long body of case authority, are only to be used in grave, grave emergencies where the threat of irreparable harm exists.

Here, the losing parties applied to the SCOTUS for a stay of the federal district judge's ruling, which had vacated a Trump era EPA regulation that prevented States from using their powers to block projects that may cause water pollution. Those parties jumped over the Court of Appeals and asked the Supreme Court to effectively pre-judge the merits...and the five conservatives did so, without much regard for the process or the fact that the matter before them was far, far short of fully briefed.

Kagan's dissent lays out the problems with this very clearly (I Have removed the case cites, but it is noteworthy that she cites to opinions written by very conservative members of the past-Court):

"Five months after the District Court remanded and vacated an Environmental Protection Agency rule, a group of States and industry organizations have asked us to stay the decision pending appeal, claiming that they will otherwise suffer irreparable harm. I would deny the request. This Court may stay a decision under review in a court of appeals “only in extraordinary circumstances” and “upon the weightiest considerations.” The applicants here have not met our standard because they have failed to substantiate their assertions of irreparable harm. The Court therefore has no warrant to grant emergency relief.

To obtain a stay in a case pending before an appellate court, a party (like the applicants here) must make a showing of “irreparabl[e] injur[y] absent a stay.” “A stay is an intrusion into the ordinary processes of administration and judicial review.” It disrupts the usual manner of hearing and considering an appeal before rendering a decision and granting relief. Our disruption of that normal order is justified only “rarely.” An applicant must show more than a likelihood of prevailing on the merits in the appellate court. It must also show an exceptional need for immediate relief. That means the applicant must (at the least) present evidence of irreversible injury—harm occurring during the appeals process that cannot be later redressed. And that evidence must clear a high bar. “[S]imply showing some possibility of irreparable injury fails to satisfy” our test. The applicant must offer concrete proof that irreparable harm is “likel[y]” to occur.

The applicants here have failed to meet that burden. They claim that the vacated rule gave them “protections” against States that previously “abuse[d]” their statutory authority to review infrastructure projects for compliance with water-quality standards. Application 25. But the ap-
plicants have not identified a single project that a State has obstructed in the five months since the District Court’s decision. Still more, they have not cited a single project that the court’s ruling threatens, or is likely to threaten, in the time before the appellate process concludes. The request for a stay rests on simple assertions—on conjectures, unsupported by any present-day evidence, about what States will now feel free to do. And the application fails to show that proper implementation of the reinstated regulatory regime—which existed for 50 years before the vacated rule came into effect—is incapable of countering whatever state overreach may (but may not) occur. Even the applicants’ own actions belie the need for a stay: Twice, the applicants waited a month before seeking that relief (the first time in the District Court, the second time here). While the applicants thus delayed, the appellate process went forward: The case will be fully briefed in the Court of Appeals next month. The applicants have given us no good reason to think that in the remaining time needed to decide the appeal, they will suffer irreparable harm.

By nonetheless granting relief, the Court goes astray. It provides a stay pending appeal, and thus signals its view of the merits, even though the applicants have failed to make the irreparable harm showing we have traditionally required. That renders the Court’s emergency docket not for
emergencies at all. The docket becomes only another place for merits determinations—except made without full briefing and argument
. I respectfully dissent."

IN other words, well-heeled people and corporations can get special messaging on the merits from the Supreme Court, without briefing at all, and without the Court majority disclosing ANY of its reasoning. This is damaging to the process, damaging to the Court's institutional standing, and smacks of special interests having their way with the Court, while other weary travelers have to wait their turn. Kagan may well be the single smartest Justice on the Court, and is by no means some crazed liberal. That she got the Chief to sign on -- through the use of citation to earlier cases in which he and Rehnquist rejected these very sorts of decisions and decision-making end runs -- should tell us almost everything we need to know.
Very well written post Mr Coaster. I don't know if ACB is a lying POS as described by a fellow poster. The issue of this shadow docket nonsense is disconcerting. FTR some executive orders that bypass congress are also disturbing to me. When you look close there is a lot of funky stuff going on in DC.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
JoeMauer89
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by JoeMauer89 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:00 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:44 pm Apologize in advance for the length of this post.

The problem with the so-called shadow docket and the Court's "emergency" intervention into the clean water case is best understood by comparing the the normal process by which a case reaches the Supreme Court and is then adjudicated, and the shadow docket process. Normally, as you all likely know, the Court takes cases from the final judgments of the Courts of Appeal. Those cases have been, therefore, through the trial court, which, with the litigants, is invested with the duty to develop the record of the facts that underlie the legal issues being contested. The case is then briefed and argued to the federal district judge. A reasoned decision is provided by the court. Then the record on appeal is bundled together, and the Court of Appeals examines the case for any errors of law, or misapprehension of the facts, by the lower court. They schedule briefing and hold arguments, and then issue a decision, that ultimately gets appealed to the Supreme Court. The Court then accepts the appeal -- with the full record on appeal, and all or nearly all of the issues ventilated very thoroughly, as you might expect in a case about, say, an executive agency's power to regulate matters bearing on the environment and water quality.

The shadow docket short circuits this well-known and empirically sound, time-honored process of adjudicating abstruse questions of federal statutory and constitutional law. In the case that started this recent thread/series of comments, there is no record on appeal; the case has only just reached the Court of Appeals, and that appeal is actually pending. In steps the Supreme Court, using powers that, under a long body of case authority, are only to be used in grave, grave emergencies where the threat of irreparable harm exists.

Here, the losing parties applied to the SCOTUS for a stay of the federal district judge's ruling, which had vacated a Trump era EPA regulation that prevented States from using their powers to block projects that may cause water pollution. Those parties jumped over the Court of Appeals and asked the Supreme Court to effectively pre-judge the merits...and the five conservatives did so, without much regard for the process or the fact that the matter before them was far, far short of fully briefed.

Kagan's dissent lays out the problems with this very clearly (I Have removed the case cites, but it is noteworthy that she cites to opinions written by very conservative members of the past-Court):

"Five months after the District Court remanded and vacated an Environmental Protection Agency rule, a group of States and industry organizations have asked us to stay the decision pending appeal, claiming that they will otherwise suffer irreparable harm. I would deny the request. This Court may stay a decision under review in a court of appeals “only in extraordinary circumstances” and “upon the weightiest considerations.” The applicants here have not met our standard because they have failed to substantiate their assertions of irreparable harm. The Court therefore has no warrant to grant emergency relief.

To obtain a stay in a case pending before an appellate court, a party (like the applicants here) must make a showing of “irreparabl[e] injur[y] absent a stay.” “A stay is an intrusion into the ordinary processes of administration and judicial review.” It disrupts the usual manner of hearing and considering an appeal before rendering a decision and granting relief. Our disruption of that normal order is justified only “rarely.” An applicant must show more than a likelihood of prevailing on the merits in the appellate court. It must also show an exceptional need for immediate relief. That means the applicant must (at the least) present evidence of irreversible injury—harm occurring during the appeals process that cannot be later redressed. And that evidence must clear a high bar. “[S]imply showing some possibility of irreparable injury fails to satisfy” our test. The applicant must offer concrete proof that irreparable harm is “likel[y]” to occur.

The applicants here have failed to meet that burden. They claim that the vacated rule gave them “protections” against States that previously “abuse[d]” their statutory authority to review infrastructure projects for compliance with water-quality standards. Application 25. But the ap-
plicants have not identified a single project that a State has obstructed in the five months since the District Court’s decision. Still more, they have not cited a single project that the court’s ruling threatens, or is likely to threaten, in the time before the appellate process concludes. The request for a stay rests on simple assertions—on conjectures, unsupported by any present-day evidence, about what States will now feel free to do. And the application fails to show that proper implementation of the reinstated regulatory regime—which existed for 50 years before the vacated rule came into effect—is incapable of countering whatever state overreach may (but may not) occur. Even the applicants’ own actions belie the need for a stay: Twice, the applicants waited a month before seeking that relief (the first time in the District Court, the second time here). While the applicants thus delayed, the appellate process went forward: The case will be fully briefed in the Court of Appeals next month. The applicants have given us no good reason to think that in the remaining time needed to decide the appeal, they will suffer irreparable harm.

By nonetheless granting relief, the Court goes astray. It provides a stay pending appeal, and thus signals its view of the merits, even though the applicants have failed to make the irreparable harm showing we have traditionally required. That renders the Court’s emergency docket not for
emergencies at all. The docket becomes only another place for merits determinations—except made without full briefing and argument
. I respectfully dissent."

IN other words, well-heeled people and corporations can get special messaging on the merits from the Supreme Court, without briefing at all, and without the Court majority disclosing ANY of its reasoning. This is damaging to the process, damaging to the Court's institutional standing, and smacks of special interests having their way with the Court, while other weary travelers have to wait their turn. Kagan may well be the single smartest Justice on the Court, and is by no means some crazed liberal. That she got the Chief to sign on -- through the use of citation to earlier cases in which he and Rehnquist rejected these very sorts of decisions and decision-making end runs -- should tell us almost everything we need to know.
Very well written post Mr Coaster. I don't know if ACB is a lying POS as described by a fellow poster. The issue of this shadow docket nonsense is disconcerting. FTR some executive orders that bypass congress are also disturbing to me. When you look close there is a lot of funky stuff going on in DC.
Cradle,

We can all agree there. Some shady stuff...

Joe
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Re: SCOTUS

Post by cradleandshoot »

JoeMauer89 wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:06 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:00 pm
Seacoaster(1) wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:44 pm Apologize in advance for the length of this post.

The problem with the so-called shadow docket and the Court's "emergency" intervention into the clean water case is best understood by comparing the the normal process by which a case reaches the Supreme Court and is then adjudicated, and the shadow docket process. Normally, as you all likely know, the Court takes cases from the final judgments of the Courts of Appeal. Those cases have been, therefore, through the trial court, which, with the litigants, is invested with the duty to develop the record of the facts that underlie the legal issues being contested. The case is then briefed and argued to the federal district judge. A reasoned decision is provided by the court. Then the record on appeal is bundled together, and the Court of Appeals examines the case for any errors of law, or misapprehension of the facts, by the lower court. They schedule briefing and hold arguments, and then issue a decision, that ultimately gets appealed to the Supreme Court. The Court then accepts the appeal -- with the full record on appeal, and all or nearly all of the issues ventilated very thoroughly, as you might expect in a case about, say, an executive agency's power to regulate matters bearing on the environment and water quality.

The shadow docket short circuits this well-known and empirically sound, time-honored process of adjudicating abstruse questions of federal statutory and constitutional law. In the case that started this recent thread/series of comments, there is no record on appeal; the case has only just reached the Court of Appeals, and that appeal is actually pending. In steps the Supreme Court, using powers that, under a long body of case authority, are only to be used in grave, grave emergencies where the threat of irreparable harm exists.

Here, the losing parties applied to the SCOTUS for a stay of the federal district judge's ruling, which had vacated a Trump era EPA regulation that prevented States from using their powers to block projects that may cause water pollution. Those parties jumped over the Court of Appeals and asked the Supreme Court to effectively pre-judge the merits...and the five conservatives did so, without much regard for the process or the fact that the matter before them was far, far short of fully briefed.

Kagan's dissent lays out the problems with this very clearly (I Have removed the case cites, but it is noteworthy that she cites to opinions written by very conservative members of the past-Court):

"Five months after the District Court remanded and vacated an Environmental Protection Agency rule, a group of States and industry organizations have asked us to stay the decision pending appeal, claiming that they will otherwise suffer irreparable harm. I would deny the request. This Court may stay a decision under review in a court of appeals “only in extraordinary circumstances” and “upon the weightiest considerations.” The applicants here have not met our standard because they have failed to substantiate their assertions of irreparable harm. The Court therefore has no warrant to grant emergency relief.

To obtain a stay in a case pending before an appellate court, a party (like the applicants here) must make a showing of “irreparabl[e] injur[y] absent a stay.” “A stay is an intrusion into the ordinary processes of administration and judicial review.” It disrupts the usual manner of hearing and considering an appeal before rendering a decision and granting relief. Our disruption of that normal order is justified only “rarely.” An applicant must show more than a likelihood of prevailing on the merits in the appellate court. It must also show an exceptional need for immediate relief. That means the applicant must (at the least) present evidence of irreversible injury—harm occurring during the appeals process that cannot be later redressed. And that evidence must clear a high bar. “[S]imply showing some possibility of irreparable injury fails to satisfy” our test. The applicant must offer concrete proof that irreparable harm is “likel[y]” to occur.

The applicants here have failed to meet that burden. They claim that the vacated rule gave them “protections” against States that previously “abuse[d]” their statutory authority to review infrastructure projects for compliance with water-quality standards. Application 25. But the ap-
plicants have not identified a single project that a State has obstructed in the five months since the District Court’s decision. Still more, they have not cited a single project that the court’s ruling threatens, or is likely to threaten, in the time before the appellate process concludes. The request for a stay rests on simple assertions—on conjectures, unsupported by any present-day evidence, about what States will now feel free to do. And the application fails to show that proper implementation of the reinstated regulatory regime—which existed for 50 years before the vacated rule came into effect—is incapable of countering whatever state overreach may (but may not) occur. Even the applicants’ own actions belie the need for a stay: Twice, the applicants waited a month before seeking that relief (the first time in the District Court, the second time here). While the applicants thus delayed, the appellate process went forward: The case will be fully briefed in the Court of Appeals next month. The applicants have given us no good reason to think that in the remaining time needed to decide the appeal, they will suffer irreparable harm.

By nonetheless granting relief, the Court goes astray. It provides a stay pending appeal, and thus signals its view of the merits, even though the applicants have failed to make the irreparable harm showing we have traditionally required. That renders the Court’s emergency docket not for
emergencies at all. The docket becomes only another place for merits determinations—except made without full briefing and argument
. I respectfully dissent."

IN other words, well-heeled people and corporations can get special messaging on the merits from the Supreme Court, without briefing at all, and without the Court majority disclosing ANY of its reasoning. This is damaging to the process, damaging to the Court's institutional standing, and smacks of special interests having their way with the Court, while other weary travelers have to wait their turn. Kagan may well be the single smartest Justice on the Court, and is by no means some crazed liberal. That she got the Chief to sign on -- through the use of citation to earlier cases in which he and Rehnquist rejected these very sorts of decisions and decision-making end runs -- should tell us almost everything we need to know.
Very well written post Mr Coaster. I don't know if ACB is a lying POS as described by a fellow poster. The issue of this shadow docket nonsense is disconcerting. FTR some executive orders that bypass congress are also disturbing to me. When you look close there is a lot of funky stuff going on in DC.
Cradle,

We can all agree there. Some shady stuff...

Joe
Never forget, if one side can do the other side can too. My question.. what does anybody do about it? Right or wrong they are the supremes and there is no higher legal authority in the land. I feel the same way about executive orders that bypass congress and establish new laws. There is a legitimate argument that if Congress was doing their job, there would be little need for executive orders.
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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