Johns Hopkins 2022

[DocBarrister]

Hopkins NCAA hopes (aka, the pipe dream):

(1) the “de facto” B1G AQ (beat every B1G opponent at least once, including Maryland, and reach the B1G conference final) … that is, take the B1G’s second spot in the NCAA tournament; or

(2) the actual AQ (win the B1G tournament).

Possible in theory. In reality …

… I’m going to continue investing in my S&P 500 ETF.

DocBarrister

[jhu06]

You can either identify and coach talent or you can not.

I see 3 ivy league programs in the top 6 plus jacksonville in the top 20 which most people didn't even know existed until this year.

How long will corona be an excuse? Clearing and turnovers are fundamentals presumably taught at a young age.

Chauvette, Evans, Bauer, Raposo, mcdermott are not division 1 players. Keogh and Angelus are not division 1 starting midfielders. If they're on the field it's because the coaches believe there's enough to work with to win. There are 15,000 18-23 year old college lacrosse players and there have to be at least 12-15 of that bunch better than some of what we've seen from players on this roster this year particularly at the offensive end.

[51percentcorn]

You can either identify and coach talent or you can not.

I see 3 ivy league programs in the top 6 plus jacksonville in the top 20 which most people didn't even know existed until this year.

How long will corona be an excuse? Clearing and turnovers are fundamentals presumably taught at a young age.

Chauvette, Evans, Bauer, Raposo, mcdermott are not division 1 players. Keogh and Angelus are not division 1 starting midfielders. If they're on the field it's because the coaches believe there's enough to work with to win. There are 15,000 18-23 year old college lacrosse players and there have to be at least 12-15 of that bunch better than some of what we've seen from players on this roster this year particularly at the offensive end.

Virtually none of this is even remotely true. HE COULDNT IDENTIFY ANY TALENT!!!!! THERE WAS NO TALENT TO IDENTIFY!!!!! Why is that so hard to understand? Let me try it one more time - he inherited a team that went 10-12 the prior 1.5 seasons - including a team whose only 2 wins in 2020 were against winless 0-6 Towson and an improbable OT comeback against Mt. St. Mary's. He had virtually the entirety of his first "recruiting" class decommit because of the coaching change - including every single 4 star offensive player. Most other Division I evaluated talent had committed elsewhere. He had no camps/summer tournaments or anything to try to find some under the radar kids. Where oh where was this talent identification supposed to occur? Unlike every other coach who could focus on just the next class that could commit in Spetember of 2020 - he had to get the bubble gum and baling wire out on two classes. He's playing 100% of the season with somebody else's guys - he's not a professional GM with an oligarch where he can just buy Kevin Durant or a bunch of players and voila - you have a team that can compete.

Evans has barely gotten a chance - I doubt Boys Latin played very much at all in 2020 and he didn't play last year - so the kid hasn't played competitive lacrosse in 2 years - got you 2 goals that helped beat Loyola - and he's not a DI middie? Nice
McDermott is a DI player IMO - attack

There are 15,000 18-23 year old college lacrosse players and there have to be at least 12-15 of that bunch better than some of what we've seen from players on this roster this year particularly at the offensive end.

There are 70 (rounding) teams in DI college lacrosse - 50 roster size says 3500 players - my GOD I had no idea there was this 11,500 size talent pool running around - fire Milliman and Baker immediately

[flalax22]

I am sorry but there is just alot of delusion on both sides of the ball so to speak - but mainly around Milliman in my opinion. What is he supposed to do - did Harry not really snap the Elder Wand and give it to PM so he can become the most powerful wizard on Earth and all of a sudden players that chose other schools in the transfer portal would have chosen Hopkins and players that do not have certain assets all of a sudden have them? Let's assess what he started with:
- A roster with two consecutive classes of players totalling 35 - could have been more - a couple left - plus two whittled down upper classes still bringing the potential roster before transfers to 56 or thereabouts
- A tiny little thing called the corona virus which prevented him from a) meeting his 56 or so players for close to if not more than 8 months b) recruiting any transfer in person c) having an effective avenue to replace the coaching change defections from the incoming class
- With Gainey leaving and the goalie from Shadyside embroiled in his own problems - the goalie room was down to two - one 5'9" incumbent with a career save percentage of mid 40's - let's all pause to remember the Thank God post on Darby - the other an unproven 5'7" sophomore. So he went and found Kirson - it was a good try - he has his good and bad moments - did not play well IMO in the first half last night - was a big reason the game became close in the second
- He had players like Grimes that had not played a competitive game in 2 years because he was hurt his high school junior year
- He had no fall practices and a truncated interrupted spring practice
- He tried to shore up the defense with Szuluk - I don't chart his + and - 's but he's certainly seen the field and appears capable
- There were 7 midfielders listed at 5'9" or less on the 2021 team - of the 14 midfielders on the '21 roster - at least 7 are gone - most unfortunately by forced attrition that had to be done and a couple transfers
- He lost a good player in Murphy (has skills that Hopkins oh so desparately needs) - we probably don't need a rehash of that - I wasn't in the building but I was ....oh never mind

“Lost a good player” - no he dismissed a great young player who by all accounts had some minor character transgressions and was forced to pay a steep price. A price not paid by the two current senior and gr attackmen with much more serious transgressions in the last year. So please we don’t need to rehash it but let’s recognize not all is consistent in Jayville. I can also point out that two attackmen who wanted to come back for their 5th years are now at Villanova and Towson respectively. Wonder why?

[jhu06]

They played a d3 goalie earlier this year, got a grad assistant from Amherst, and have players from canada. There is more lacrosse talent on this continent than the miaa, long island, upstate new york, culver academy and whatever list xanders puts up from the half dozen camps he attends each year.

[GSP]

The stuff about wanting the D to not run down field after scores is one of the most inane things I've ever seen on this board. Just stop. On the list of top 100 problems with this team, this is #5849902873920.

no one is saying it's a major problem, but you'd think that two days after playing a very physical one-goal game they'd want to keep legs as fresh as possible. delaware came into tonight on 9 days rest

Its silly. It has absolutely zero to do with "fresh legs".

It is neither a silly nor an inane point to make! Additionally, it has nothing to due with tired legs or a better use of energy.
Instead, it is an embarrassing practice when the team is not competitive. The tradition only works when the team is dominant. It was a similar feeling to watching the pep band play the "We want more" song for the 4th goal when they were already down 16 to 3 to Virginia. It is just such a sad "salt in the wounds" reminder of just how far this program has slipped. It only invokes feelings of pity and sadness. They should discontinue both until the team gets competitive again.

So no goal celebrations until we're back in the Final Four. Because only Final Four teams get to celebrate while everyone else should show respectful levels of shame and lack-of-enthusiasm. OK, got it.

Not suggesting that at all. From the team's perspective, (admittedly, not the fans') the best course of action would be a commitment to a shared agreement that it was ALL business, ALL the time, until the program got back to a level of, at least respectability. A shared commitment from each class to hand the program off to the next incoming class, better than they had received it. Forget the pep band, forget running to the goalie after each goal. Only enthusiastically celebrate a win and nothing else because, to bring the program back to respectability, that is all that will matter.

[51percentcorn]

They played a d3 goalie earlier this year, got a grad assistant from Amherst, and have players from canada. There is more lacrosse talent on this continent than the miaa, long island, upstate new york, culver academy and whatever list xanders puts up from the half dozen camps he attends each year.

I don't know anything about Annino - what that has to do with the price of bread is eluding me. Versfeld - they tried to add some depth to the goalie room -Sooo.... I am glad everything is so easy in your world - he just should have done it - no question - I don't know what I was thinking. He has a roster of 56 - nobody playing lacrosse - and a school that is very expensive and difficult academically - piece o cake

“Lost a good player” - no he dismissed a great young player who by all accounts had some minor character transgressions and was forced to pay a steep price. A price not paid by the two current senior and gr attackmen with much more serious transgressions in the last year. So please we don’t need to rehash it but let’s recognize not all is consistent in Jayville. I can also point out that two attackmen who wanted to come back for their 5th years are now at Villanova and Towson respectively. Wonder why?

Well - I think I can channel my inner O'Canada and politely suggest "by all accounts" might have another side of the coin and be a slight exaggeration. I wasn't looking to get into Murphy any more than Rambo. Your incredibly thinly veiled references to the two consistent starting attackmen - I wonder of whom you speak? - was a) seriously contributed to by the former head coach who could play favorites with the best of them b) wasn't Milliman crucified for calling out one of those players c) who is left? - I, despite '06's belief, do not believe you can snap your fingers and create talent out of thin air d) I don't pretend to know the absolute details of what transpired with OM but are you seriously suggeting then that 3 and 32 should have suffered the same fate? Oh - that wouldn't have created any firestorm/shut off the Island for recruiting - IAC etc etc.

[youthathletics]

Comparison...

I can certainly recall a bunch of criticism regarding Benson a few years ago and now the same this is beginning to happen with JG. Benson has not changed his scheme much at all at UMD. And Benson did not recruit the players at UMD...where he likely did at JHU.

I still think there is something coupled with early recruiting AND coaching. By comparison UVA, UMD, and UNC where in that same ER discussion...so what happened.

UNC - was a .500 team 17'-19', (of note..transfer of Gray, offense scheme changes have brought them back)
UMD - Was not effected by ER, insert a new OC in JL, & TIlls tweaked his coaching style, also used transfer portal nicely.
UVA - .500 in DS's final years & first year of LT. Blew up the old system and started anew. OC is legit, standards are very high.

You have to respect what PM and JG are attempting to do. The eye test just looks like the men are either confused, not buying in, or are just exhausted mentally; the body language just looks off. They'll figure it and I certainly hope the coaches listen to the players, really listen.

[HopFan16]

They played a d3 goalie earlier this year, got a grad assistant from Amherst, and have players from canada. There is more lacrosse talent on this continent than the miaa, long island, upstate new york, culver academy and whatever list xanders puts up from the half dozen camps he attends each year.

yeah and they have 6 recruits from Canada, 2 from California, 2 Native Americans, 1 from Michigan and 1 from Ohio coming in the next two recruiting classes if you'd just let them get on campus before saying the staff is "toast"

crazy that you've dealt with a decade-plus of mediocrity — which has been well documented — and can't give a brand new staff a couple years to bring in his own recruits and build a new culture which needed to be revamped, and that takes time. if four years from now we're still losing to delaware and navy and not making the tournament, then, sure, have at it. but we're at the beginning of this process. the team STUNK when PM and co. took over.

they plucked Szuluk out of obscurity from Lafayette, and he is a quality defender. they can evaluate talent. the idea that John Grant Jr. cannot tell a good player from a bad one is f*cking hilarious. injuries to fernandez and maher have been unfortunate, there's a pretty good chance one or both would be having an impact. fernandez was a GB machine at Cuse — 50 in his last 18 games

as 51 has tried to explain to you several times, which you have ignored, is that they can't just bring in whoever they want. the transfer portal is a two-way street. example: hopkins was a finalist for chris gray. he visited campus. almost came here. but he chose UNC. PM can't say abracadabra and have a player like Gray just materialize in the locker room

[OCanada]

Homer

Well i guess you got me.

Conditional as I presented it included athletic, academic and character issues. I don’t see the importance of when tests are scheduled at all. You make it contingent on a score of X or better.

The kind of inductive reasoning being displayed is the bane of economics, social sciences and fans. That guy standing next to the Pope or Brezhnev probably knows more about them and events than the people standing in St Peter’s square.

FYI i didn't say Bobby told me about Rambo i said i saw no reason to doubt it. He is not how i heard about it.

I have no control over what people do with new facts esp those whose motivational thinking impels them in another direction.

Gresham ‘s Law. Bad money drives out good.

[xxxxxxx]

Love and respect Hopkins but this rebuild is going to be tough. The younger generation doesn’t remember the great Hopkins teams. Looking at the choices the top talent has, Hopkins is falling pretty far down the list. If I'm a five-star kid with good grades, most of the Ivys are more appealing, better lacrosse, better social scene, similar or better academics, and larger alumni networks. Next is the ACC, solid academics, tremendous social life, huge alumni networks, and the best overall lacrosse. Big Ten, Big East, Patriot, and even CAA all have programs that players can and will choose over Hopkins. Unless you are a kid from Baltimore with some connection to the Blue Jays, they are in the teens at best, as a choice for college for the top prospects overall. They can have a lower top twenty type of team moving forward but I don't see them in final fours. The landscape has changed and there are many options that are more appealing for the elite talent.

[molo]

Looking for a bright spot? Petro’s nephew, who specializes as a face-off wing, hustles and had a key gb or two. Like a FOGO, he plays only on face-offs, coming off the field for settled o or d. He’s an unheralded guy who doesn’t quit.

[DocBarrister]

Comparison...

I can certainly recall a bunch of criticism regarding Benson a few years ago and now the same this is beginning to happen with JG. Benson has not changed his scheme much at all at UMD. And Benson did not recruit the players at UMD...where he likely did at JHU.

I still think there is something coupled with early recruiting AND coaching. By comparison UVA, UMD, and UNC where in that same ER discussion...so what happened.

UNC - was a .500 team 17'-19', (of note..transfer of Gray, offense scheme changes have brought them back)
UMD - Was not effected by ER, insert a new OC in JL, & TIlls tweaked his coaching style, also used transfer portal nicely.
UVA - .500 in DS's final years & first year of LT. Blew up the old system and started anew. OC is legit, standards are very high.

You have to respect what PM and JG are attempting to do. The eye test just looks like the men are either confused, not buying in, or are just exhausted mentally; the body language just looks off. They'll figure it and I certainly hope the coaches listen to the players, really listen.

My well-placed sources have informed me that Benson has completely ruined Maryland’s offense.

DocBarrister

[jhu06]

clearing, turnovers, timeout usage, game planning, those have nothing to do with recruiting, and if they were able to find assets on one half of the field it's hard to understand why they were not able to upgrade the other side.

The standard has gone from championships to final fours to just making the ncaa tournament to just competing in a conference that doesn't care about lacrosse to just beating Jacksonville. In 15 years.

[ICGrad]

Love and respect Hopkins but this rebuild is going to be tough. .... They can have a lower top twenty type of team moving forward but I don't see them in final fours. The landscape has changed and there are many options that are more appealing for the elite talent.

They could always give up the scholarships and drop down to d3. Hell, they'd be at least the second best d3 program in the state of Maryland...

Seriously, though, it's a bit premature to be writing obits for Hopkins lacrosse. Give the new coaches a couple of years; they'll be back.

[DocBarrister]

Love and respect Hopkins but this rebuild is going to be tough. The younger generation doesn’t remember the great Hopkins teams. Looking at the choices the top talent has, Hopkins is falling pretty far down the list. If I'm a five-star kid with good grades, most of the Ivys are more appealing, better lacrosse, better social scene, similar or better academics, and larger alumni networks. Next is the ACC, solid academics, tremendous social life, huge alumni networks, and the best overall lacrosse. Big Ten, Big East, Patriot, and even CAA all have programs that players can and will choose over Hopkins. Unless you are a kid from Baltimore with some connection to the Blue Jays, they are in the teens at best, as a choice for college for the top prospects overall. They can have a lower top twenty type of team moving forward but I don't see them in final fours. The landscape has changed and there are many options that are more appealing for the elite talent.

You do know that we were in the Final Four just 7 years ago?

Nearly 140 years of lacrosse tradition ain’t goin’ anywhere soon. Plus, Hopkins is in the midst of major improvements in student life (e.g., new student center) and financial assistance.

DocBarrister

[Ruffled_Feathers]

Admittedly the source post for this discussion is generally bunk but 7 years is a lifetime ago Doc.

I don't think selling JHU lacrosse is that hard even at this point though, "How would you 5-star blue chip offensive recruit like to be the hero/star that brings JHU lacrosse back to the promise land?" Just gotta go out there and find some All American offensive talent with the right mindset. Maybe that kid is Koleton Marquis for all we know.

In the meantime we are where we are, not a ton of sense in complaining about it or pointing fingers. If some of y'all want to jump ship now that's your right, you were never really a fan in the first place if it was all about fair weather and "being the NY Yankees of lacrosse" when the pool was shallower. If you're still mad you've gotta change your mindset fellas, I sure wasn't livid that the Orioles didn't win 100 games last season...

[HopFan16]

Looking for a bright spot? Petro’s nephew, who specializes as a face-off wing, hustles and had a key gb or two. Like a FOGO, he plays only on face-offs, coming off the field for settled o or d. He’s an unheralded guy who doesn’t quit.

he's a helluva wing player. more impressive when you consider he came in as an attackman

Love and respect Hopkins but this rebuild is going to be tough. The younger generation doesn’t remember the great Hopkins teams. Looking at the choices the top talent has, Hopkins is falling pretty far down the list. If I'm a five-star kid with good grades, most of the Ivys are more appealing, better lacrosse, better social scene, similar or better academics, and larger alumni networks. Next is the ACC, solid academics, tremendous social life, huge alumni networks, and the best overall lacrosse. Big Ten, Big East, Patriot, and even CAA all have programs that players can and will choose over Hopkins. Unless you are a kid from Baltimore with some connection to the Blue Jays, they are in the teens at best, as a choice for college for the top prospects overall. They can have a lower top twenty type of team moving forward but I don't see them in final fours. The landscape has changed and there are many options that are more appealing for the elite talent.

There's no doubt there is a lot more competition for recruits than there used to be but I'd pump the brakes here a little bit. The Ivies appear to be having a good year but outside of Yale they haven't had much sustained success. Dartmouth is Darmouth and then of the Brown/Harvard/Penn group in particular, let's see some actual success before we anoint them. Penn hasn't made a FF since 1988 and while that '16 Brown team was great, they aren't anywhere close to getting back. Princeton looks terrific this year, think they might be good for awhile but let's see it first. Cornell looks good as well, which is in part why our coach landed the job he has now. There's a reason coaches seem to flee the Ivy when the opportunity arises. Tough place to be successful consistently. We're in a similar boat except we have the benefit of scholarships.

Also think you're overrating the social scene at some of these schools. Having grown up in the Princeton area, you've got your eating clubs (essentially frats but even more pretentious), a couple of boring bars on Nassau Street and then the occasional weekend trip into NYC. Hopkins is not a party school by any stretch of the imagination but between team parties/Fells/Fed Hill/Power Plant/Towson/Loyola there's a pretty active social scene for college kids in Baltimore, plus you've got easy access to DC and Philly.

Just look at the next two classes — we flipped Brooks English from Brown, one player was offered by essentially every school you listed above and picked Hopkins, Mr. Marquis picked us over Syracuse, another went with Hopkins over a handful of Ivies + Georgetown. The staff has won a few battles. And that was coming off 2-4 and 4-9 seasons. Give it some time. They certainly don't get their pick of their litter like maybe they did a long time ago but they can be competitive on the recruiting circuit and field good teams. The team PM recruited to Cornell looks pretty talented. If you think Cornell has a much better social scene I'm not sure you've ever been to Ithaca. He can put a similar team on the field at Hopkins but unfortunately for our friend '06 we need to give him a couple years to get the guys he wants in the door.

[Dip&Dunk]

You do know that we were in the Final Four just 7 years ago?

Nearly 140 years of lacrosse tradition ain’t goin’ anywhere soon. Plus, Hopkins is in the midst of major improvements in student life (e.g., new student center) and financial assistance.

DocBarrister

By my count 13 other teams can claim that in the last 7 years. And that also means the recruit was 10 when that happened last for JHU....and everyone is in the midst of improvements to student life and financial assistance (It even appears Federal Student Loans may not have to be re-payed, see WSJ March 18 Editorial but that is for another forum)

140 years of tradition.... yeah Texas (with a quite larger endowment than JHU)/OK/Neb/Miami football, UCLA basketball, Iowa wrestling, Indiana swimming, etc. all kicked to the curb of their sports they used to dominate.

How long before moving along the 7 steps of grief?

[51percentcorn]

clearing, turnovers, timeout usage, game planning, those have nothing to do with recruiting, and if they were able to find assets on one half of the field it's hard to understand why they were not able to upgrade the other side.

Make the buzzer sound - wrong again
There is a physical and mental side to playing the game - you can run like a deer but if you have the sports IQ of a hamster you'll make mistakes all over the field - you can be better than Casey Powell on lacrosse IQ but if you can't outrun a fat lady with gout you won't play - recruiting has alot to do with it.

Time-out usage - I'm not recalling drastic mistakes there by the current admin - if you are talking about Rodgers getting stripped he wasn't anywhere close to the line yet - no time out could be called
Game planning - now when you lose there is always something for a fan to chirp about that should have been done differently - but given the physical talent they can put on the field I'm not sure what can be done - they tried a smaller stick skill type at left attack to keep the mid-fields together from last year - they tried Grimes until he got hurt - now Degnon. They have moved both DeSimone and Epstein around to see if anything clicks. Seems to me they have not sat on their hands and have done nothing.
Because assets kind of need to play in their minds - Why would Kirson think of Hopkins? Two goalies at Hopkins - one struggled when playing one had not played. Szuluk? Herd was kind of thinning out on the defensive side Jennings - there were no LSMs - DeLaney was going back to hoops - Fernandez still recovering - Reinson left
Offensively - Epstein Williams DeSimone plus 900 midfielders were still running around