MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:37 pm
Good...so, I guess the "blackmail" and "propaganda" worked. Guess it wasn't all BS.
Don't get too excited yet. FNC's Pentagon reporter says " ...it appears the US govt was somewhat blindsided today by the Polish statement today...the news has been picked up by Russian propaganda channels like Sputnik. Clearly Russia is taking note of the Polish offer... I think what's happening here is the Poles have obviously offered Zelensky these Migs IF US backfills with new Migs.
So yeah. This is still all propaganda. This is negotiation by twitter "news" releases.
Zelensky & Poland are playing hot potato with the US & NATO. Poland doesn't want to be the ones to say no & they want newer jets, sooner, so they combined to pull the pin on this sweat grenade & toss it in the lap of NATO, the US & Germany.
I warned you to temper your enthusiasm about the renewed NATO unity & watch how they handle this one.
This is not how NATO should operate. Was Germany consulted ?
Zelensky is using sympathetic propaganda to blackmail NATO & individual members.
Nobody wants to tell him NO while he's winning the sympathetic propaganda war.
Maybe some messaging to Putin from NATO going on, too. If US air assets are going to backfill in the short-term, He will need to worry about that, too.
Based upon Russian performance in Ukraine military operation, he'd be nuts to take on NATO especially after Eastern Flank buildup begins to occur. If Ukraine forces can do this sort of damage imagine what well-prepared NATO forces could do to Russian ground and air assets in very short order, too.
... I would bet on it. Biden makes an announcement (oil) on his own, NATO members (MiG29s) make an announcement on their own, all within an hour of each other.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:37 pm
Good...so, I guess the "blackmail" and "propaganda" worked. Guess it wasn't all BS.
Don't get too excited yet. FNC's Pentagon reporter says " ...it appears the US govt was somewhat blindsided today by the Polish statement today...the news has been picked up by Russian propaganda channels like Sputnik. Clearly Russia is taking note of the Polish offer... I think what's happening here is the Poles have obviously offered Zelensky these Migs IF US backfills with new Migs.
So yeah. This is still all propaganda. This is negotiation by twitter "news" releases.
Zelensky & Poland are playing hot potato with the US & NATO. Poland doesn't want to be the ones to say no & they want newer jets, sooner, so they combined to pull the pin on this sweat grenade & toss it in the lap of NATO, the US & Germany.
I warned you to temper your enthusiasm about the renewed NATO unity & watch how they handle this one.
This is not how NATO should operate. Was Germany consulted ?
Zelensky is using sympathetic propaganda to blackmail NATO & individual members.
Nobody wants to tell him NO while he's winning the sympathetic propaganda war.
Maybe some messaging to Putin from NATO going on, too. If US air assets are going to backfill in the short-term, He will need to worry about that, too.
Based upon Russian performance in Ukraine military operation, he'd be nuts to take on NATO especially after Eastern Flank buildup begins to occur. If Ukraine forces can do this sort of damage imagine what well-prepared NATO forces could do to Russian ground and air assets in very short order, too.
Agree. From a NATO perspective, the performance of the Russian military has to be encouraging -- especially to Poland & the Baltic members. Although the nuc saber rattling is unsettling. Putin will use tac nucs if cornered, even IF he is sane.
You know where the preponderance of the additional forces to bolster NATO's E flank is going to come from ? The US, as always.
The cost & magnitude of fortifying the E flank to Cold War levels will be massive.
Maybe some messaging between Xi & Putin to bog down the US in Europe.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:35 pm
by Essexfenwick
Just confirmed that most of Europe won’t go along with the United States in boycotting Russian oil and gas. As usual the United States will be left out there alone, being taken advantage of by Europe, as we defend them, while we read in the fake news how the world has come together under JoeTard.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:37 pm
Good...so, I guess the "blackmail" and "propaganda" worked. Guess it wasn't all BS.
Don't get too excited yet. FNC's Pentagon reporter says " ...it appears the US govt was somewhat blindsided today by the Polish statement today...the news has been picked up by Russian propaganda channels like Sputnik. Clearly Russia is taking note of the Polish offer... I think what's happening here is the Poles have obviously offered Zelensky these Migs IF US backfills with new Migs.
So yeah. This is still all propaganda. This is negotiation by twitter "news" releases.
Zelensky & Poland are playing hot potato with the US & NATO. Poland doesn't want to be the ones to say no & they want newer jets, sooner, so they combined to pull the pin on this sweat grenade & toss it in the lap of NATO, the US & Germany.
I warned you to temper your enthusiasm about the renewed NATO unity & watch how they handle this one.
This is not how NATO should operate. Was Germany consulted ?
Zelensky is using sympathetic propaganda to blackmail NATO & individual members.
Nobody wants to tell him NO while he's winning the sympathetic propaganda war.
Maybe some messaging to Putin from NATO going on, too. If US air assets are going to backfill in the short-term, He will need to worry about that, too.
Based upon Russian performance in Ukraine military operation, he'd be nuts to take on NATO especially after Eastern Flank buildup begins to occur. If Ukraine forces can do this sort of damage imagine what well-prepared NATO forces could do to Russian ground and air assets in very short order, too.
Agree. From a NATO perspective, the performance of the Russian military has to be encouraging -- especially to Poland & the Baltic members. Although the nuc saber rattling is unsettling. Putin will use tac nucs if cornered, even IF he is sane.
You know where the preponderance of the additional forces to bolster NATO's E flank is going to come from ? The US, as always.
The cost & magnitude of fortifying the E flank to Cold War levels will be massive.
Maybe some messaging between Xi & Putin to bog down the US in Europe.
State Department now says the Poles went out on their own. Plausible deniability or herding cats again in NATO. However, given the current threat, it might usher in more military investment in NATO Eastern Flank over time and hopefully added US deployment will be of shorter term...although can understand your skepticism.
Meanwhile, McDonald's and Starbucks shut down Russia operations after Coke and Apple did same. Pepsi on the verge of doing same. NYT also announced they are removing all Russia staff temporarily following CNN and BBC.
Have to love the story of Russian soldiers having MRE rations that expired in 2002. Reports are that they have lost over 60 helos and 16 fixed-wing aircraft so far including two air transports filled with paratroopers.
Ukrainians making good use of Javelins and Stingers as well as drone provided by Turkey.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:48 pm
by jhu72
Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:35 pm
Just confirmed that most of Europe won’t go along with the United States in boycotting Russian oil and gas. As usual the United States will be left out there alone, being taken advantage of by Europe, as we defend them, while we read in the fake news how the world has come together under JoeTard.
... Biden did not say and no one with a brain expected that any of the other allies would join in. It was absolutely clear this was a unilateral effort. Except that IF the congress votes on it - it will pass with bi-partisan support. Biden was announcing it as an executive order, before congress could vote on it.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:37 pm
Good...so, I guess the "blackmail" and "propaganda" worked. Guess it wasn't all BS.
Don't get too excited yet. FNC's Pentagon reporter says " ...it appears the US govt was somewhat blindsided today by the Polish statement today...the news has been picked up by Russian propaganda channels like Sputnik. Clearly Russia is taking note of the Polish offer... I think what's happening here is the Poles have obviously offered Zelensky these Migs IF US backfills with new Migs.
So yeah. This is still all propaganda. This is negotiation by twitter "news" releases.
Zelensky & Poland are playing hot potato with the US & NATO. Poland doesn't want to be the ones to say no & they want newer jets, sooner, so they combined to pull the pin on this sweat grenade & toss it in the lap of NATO, the US & Germany.
I warned you to temper your enthusiasm about the renewed NATO unity & watch how they handle this one.
This is not how NATO should operate. Was Germany consulted ?
Zelensky is using sympathetic propaganda to blackmail NATO & individual members.
Nobody wants to tell him NO while he's winning the sympathetic propaganda war.
Maybe some messaging to Putin from NATO going on, too. If US air assets are going to backfill in the short-term, He will need to worry about that, too.
Based upon Russian performance in Ukraine military operation, he'd be nuts to take on NATO especially after Eastern Flank buildup begins to occur. If Ukraine forces can do this sort of damage imagine what well-prepared NATO forces could do to Russian ground and air assets in very short order, too.
Agree. From a NATO perspective, the performance of the Russian military has to be encouraging -- especially to Poland & the Baltic members. Although the nuc saber rattling is unsettling. Putin will use tac nucs if cornered, even IF he is sane.
You know where the preponderance of the additional forces to bolster NATO's E flank is going to come from ? The US, as always.
The cost & magnitude of fortifying the E flank to Cold War levels will be massive.
Maybe some messaging between Xi & Putin to bog down the US in Europe.
State Department now says the Poles went out on their own. Plausible deniability or herding cats again in NATO. However, given the current threat, it might usher in more military investment in NATO Eastern Flank over time and hopefully added US deployment will be of shorter term...although can understand your skepticism.
Meanwhile, McDonald's and Starbucks shut down Russia operations after Coke and Apple did same. Pepsi on the verge of doing same. NYT also announced they are removing all Russia staff temporarily following CNN and BBC.
Have to love the story of Russian soldiers having MRE rations that expired in 2002. Reports are that they have lost over 60 helos and 16 fixed-wing aircraft so far including two air transports filled with paratroopers.
Ukrainians making good use of Javelins and Stingers as well as drone provided by Turkey.
Were the Germans in on it also -- blindsiding the US, or did the Poles blindside both allies? It makes a difference as to what is really going on!
Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:35 pm
Just confirmed that most of Europe won’t go along with the United States in boycotting Russian oil and gas. As usual the United States will be left out there alone, being taken advantage of by Europe, as we defend them, while we read in the fake news how the world has come together under JoeTard.
... Biden did not say and no one with a brain expected that any of the other allies would join in. It was absolutely clear this was a unilateral effort. Except that IF the congress votes on it - it will pass with bi-partisan support. Biden was announcing it as an executive order, before congress could vote on it.
The dollar is being demoted in slow motion. The most reckless actions in our lifetimes are taking place. The United States government is bankrupt without the reserve currency.
I’ve never been a big Gold guy as long as the dollar is the reserve currency but I’m looking very hard at it now. I’m talking physical gold you can hide or give to your loved ones … not a ETF or fund piece of paper. There is something seriously wrong with permanent Washington. They appear very upset about a relatively peaceful world.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:37 pm
Good...so, I guess the "blackmail" and "propaganda" worked. Guess it wasn't all BS.
Don't get too excited yet. FNC's Pentagon reporter says " ...it appears the US govt was somewhat blindsided today by the Polish statement today...the news has been picked up by Russian propaganda channels like Sputnik. Clearly Russia is taking note of the Polish offer... I think what's happening here is the Poles have obviously offered Zelensky these Migs IF US backfills with new Migs.
So yeah. This is still all propaganda. This is negotiation by twitter "news" releases.
Zelensky & Poland are playing hot potato with the US & NATO. Poland doesn't want to be the ones to say no & they want newer jets, sooner, so they combined to pull the pin on this sweat grenade & toss it in the lap of NATO, the US & Germany.
I warned you to temper your enthusiasm about the renewed NATO unity & watch how they handle this one.
This is not how NATO should operate. Was Germany consulted ?
Zelensky is using sympathetic propaganda to blackmail NATO & individual members.
Nobody wants to tell him NO while he's winning the sympathetic propaganda war.
Maybe some messaging to Putin from NATO going on, too. If US air assets are going to backfill in the short-term, He will need to worry about that, too.
Based upon Russian performance in Ukraine military operation, he'd be nuts to take on NATO especially after Eastern Flank buildup begins to occur. If Ukraine forces can do this sort of damage imagine what well-prepared NATO forces could do to Russian ground and air assets in very short order, too.
Agree. From a NATO perspective, the performance of the Russian military has to be encouraging -- especially to Poland & the Baltic members. Although the nuc saber rattling is unsettling. Putin will use tac nucs if cornered, even IF he is sane.
You know where the preponderance of the additional forces to bolster NATO's E flank is going to come from ? The US, as always.
The cost & magnitude of fortifying the E flank to Cold War levels will be massive.
Maybe some messaging between Xi & Putin to bog down the US in Europe.
As usual, you sound resentful that the US is the West's superpower. With all the benefits, and yes, all the responsibilities of such.
At first, Blinken is "blackmailing" Poland, now Poland is acting on its own, no promises made. Where do you get all this projection of their motivations? RT ?
How about this is complicated, for many of the reasons you'd expressed, and the details needed to be worked out?...and probably more will need to be, but the threshold of confidence was reached and the Poles stepped forward as needed.
None of our allies has a GDP greater than 1/4th of ours, and we're 20+% higher per capita GDP than any of our larger allies. Wealthiest country in the world by a wide margin, we benefit enormously from a stable, rule of law international order and trading system.
But malign actors can foul that prosperity up, as well as the peace.
So, yeah, we need to minimize that damage...and it costs to do so.
Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:35 pm
Just confirmed that most of Europe won’t go along with the United States in boycotting Russian oil and gas. As usual the United States will be left out there alone, being taken advantage of by Europe, as we defend them, while we read in the fake news how the world has come together under JoeTard.
... Biden did not say and no one with a brain expected that any of the other allies would join in. It was absolutely clear this was a unilateral effort. Except that IF the congress votes on it - it will pass with bi-partisan support. Biden was announcing it as an executive order, before congress could vote on it.
The dollar is being demoted in slow motion. The most reckless actions in our lifetimes are taking place. The United States government is bankrupt without the reserve currency.
I’ve never been a big Gold guy as long as the dollar is the reserve currency but I’m looking very hard at it now. I’m talking physical gold you can hide or give to your loved ones … not a ETF or fund piece of paper. There is something seriously wrong with permanent Washington. They appear very upset about a relatively peaceful world.
you haven't been a big anything guy for long.
Childish ranting posts.
Essexfenwick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:35 pm
Just confirmed that most of Europe won’t go along with the United States in boycotting Russian oil and gas. As usual the United States will be left out there alone, being taken advantage of by Europe, as we defend them, while we read in the fake news how the world has come together under JoeTard.
... Biden did not say and no one with a brain expected that any of the other allies would join in. It was absolutely clear this was a unilateral effort. Except that IF the congress votes on it - it will pass with bi-partisan support. Biden was announcing it as an executive order, before congress could vote on it.
The dollar is being demoted in slow motion. The most reckless actions in our lifetimes are taking place. The United States government is bankrupt without the reserve currency.
I’ve never been a big Gold guy as long as the dollar is the reserve currency but I’m looking very hard at it now. I’m talking physical gold you can hide or give to your loved ones … not a ETF or fund piece of paper. There is something seriously wrong with permanent Washington. They appear very upset about a relatively peaceful world.
you haven't been a big anything guy for long.
Childish ranting posts.
Succinct and unimpeachable is frustrating to the confused. Point taken.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:37 pm
by old salt
jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:58 pm
Were the Germans in on it also -- blindsiding the US, or did the Poles blindside both allies? It makes a difference as to what is really going on!
"Breaking news" in the middle of US/PBS feed of DW News : " Poland had agreed to give it's entire fleet of Mig-29's to the US. The US is expected to let Ukraine use the planes to defend itself. Part of the deal between Poland & the US that would see Warsaw receive F-16's as replacements. "
jhu72 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:58 pm
Were the Germans in on it also -- blindsiding the US, or did the Poles blindside both allies? It makes a difference as to what is really going on!
"Breaking news" in the middle of US/PBS feed of DW News : " Poland had agreed to give it's entire fleet of Mig-29's to the US. The US is expected to let Ukraine use the planes to defend itself. Part of the deal between Poland & the US that would see Warsaw receive F-16's as replacements. "
No mention of transfer via Ramstein.
Sounds like the Fed conjuring trillions of dollars from thin air… giving it to the money center banks at 0 percent interest then (wink wink) the banks buy T bills that pay 1 percent with the “conjured from nothing money” and pretend the government isn’t paying its bills by printing money.
Now pulling that obvious shell game in a kinetic war with a nuclear jaugernaut isn’t the same as with wanting to be lied to Wall Street marshmallows.
Interesting .
Glad I live outside the blast zone in on the grass seats.
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:37 pm
Good...so, I guess the "blackmail" and "propaganda" worked. Guess it wasn't all BS.
Don't get too excited yet. FNC's Pentagon reporter says " ...it appears the US govt was somewhat blindsided today by the Polish statement today...the news has been picked up by Russian propaganda channels like Sputnik. Clearly Russia is taking note of the Polish offer... I think what's happening here is the Poles have obviously offered Zelensky these Migs IF US backfills with new Migs.
So yeah. This is still all propaganda. This is negotiation by twitter "news" releases.
Zelensky & Poland are playing hot potato with the US & NATO. Poland doesn't want to be the ones to say no & they want newer jets, sooner, so they combined to pull the pin on this sweat grenade & toss it in the lap of NATO, the US & Germany.
I warned you to temper your enthusiasm about the renewed NATO unity & watch how they handle this one.
This is not how NATO should operate. Was Germany consulted ?
Zelensky is using sympathetic propaganda to blackmail NATO & individual members.
Nobody wants to tell him NO while he's winning the sympathetic propaganda war.
Maybe some messaging to Putin from NATO going on, too. If US air assets are going to backfill in the short-term, He will need to worry about that, too.
Based upon Russian performance in Ukraine military operation, he'd be nuts to take on NATO especially after Eastern Flank buildup begins to occur. If Ukraine forces can do this sort of damage imagine what well-prepared NATO forces could do to Russian ground and air assets in very short order, too.
Agree. From a NATO perspective, the performance of the Russian military has to be encouraging -- especially to Poland & the Baltic members. Although the nuc saber rattling is unsettling. Putin will use tac nucs if cornered, even IF he is sane.
You know where the preponderance of the additional forces to bolster NATO's E flank is going to come from ? The US, as always.
The cost & magnitude of fortifying the E flank to Cold War levels will be massive.
Maybe some messaging between Xi & Putin to bog down the US in Europe.
As usual, you sound resentful that the US is the West's superpower. With all the benefits, and yes, all the responsibilities of such. I'm resentful of freeriders who take advantage of us. The EU could be just as much of a superpower as the US if they invested in their own defense. I saw first hand how much they contributed to NATO's shared defense during the Cold War.
obtw -- they resent us acting as if we are the sole western superpower.
At first, Blinken is "blackmailing" Poland, now Poland is acting on its own, no promises made. Where do you get all this projection of their motivations? RT ? All you have to do is pay attention. Zelensky sends out video guilting the US for not providing a no fly zone, then pleads for NATO to give us their Migs. Then Blinken goes on tv & says -- ok with us, we'll backfill, tossing the hot potato to Poland. The Poles then say -- ok big boy, you want our Migs, pick them up at Ramstein & give us the F-16's you promised. State Dept's Ukrainian cheerleader Victoria Nuland blindsided during Congressional testimony. No public comment from Germany yet. It is a stupid, impractical idea. Blinken didn't take the chance to shut it down when given. His "greenlight" comments encouraged it.
How about this is complicated, for many of the reasons you'd expressed, and the details needed to be worked out?...and probably more will need to be, but the threshold of confidence was reached and the Poles stepped forward as needed. If so, why the Polish announcement ? Is that how you do good faith negotiations ?
None of our allies has a GDP greater than 1/4th of ours, and we're 20+% higher per capita GDP than any of our larger allies. Wealthiest country in the world by a wide margin, we benefit enormously from a stable, rule of law international order and trading system. So what ? Do the EU -- US comparison.
But malign actors can foul that prosperity up, as well as the peace. Only if you give them the necessary leverage -- like energy dependence.
So, yeah, we need to minimize that damage...and it costs to do so. It didn't cost that much from 2017-2021, but Ukraine wasn't being encouraged to seek NATO membership then. They've had 21 years, 3 revolutions & regime changes to develop their own prosperity & peaceful co-existence with Russia, like the other SR's did. We pushed them to seek NATO & EU membership. Alex Vindman & Fiona Hill are getting the war they sought.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 pm
by old salt
get it to x wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:59 pm
PWC from MSNBC:
...never thought I'd see MSNBC publish something like that.
They normally mock it as disinformation from Russiam agents.
The worm is turning when confronted with the obvious.
...never thought I'd see MSNBC publish something like that.
They normally mock it as disinformation from Russiam agents.
The worm is turning when confronted with the obvious.
Fences make good neighbors and Ukraine was a useful fence.
...never thought I'd see MSNBC publish something like that.
They normally mock it as disinformation from Russiam agents.
The worm is turning when confronted with the obvious.
Fences make good neighbors and Ukraine was a useful fence.
...never thought I'd see MSNBC publish something like that.
They normally mock it as disinformation from Russiam agents.
The worm is turning when confronted with the obvious.
Don’t matter.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:54 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
McDonalds has declared a No Fry Zone in Russia.
Didn't see the mention around here of a couple Republican Senators ignoring secops and Zelenskyy's request and posting screenshots of their ongoing zoom call, including one of the Moscow 8.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:11 pm
by NattyBohChamps04
Also interesting to note with all the NATO / USA victim blaming in this thread, Moscow removed the three most pro-Russia voting regions in Ukraine in 2014. There wasn't much support for joining NATO prior to that, so removing those elements really pushed Ukraine policies west-ward.
The 2014 invasion was also about a trade issue, not the near or long term issue of Ukraine joining NATO.
NATO "expansion" is more of a distraction. The real issue all along has been EU economic expansion. We've seen a much greater emphasis by Russia to break up the EU than breaking up NATO. Brexit, Hungary, Poland, etc. EU economic policies at the border would do more to destabilize Russian politics and economics than NATO at the border ever would.
...never thought I'd see MSNBC publish something like that. 