cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:34 pm
I guess I can be redundant here. When you to make a strategic withdrawal... Don't effing tell the enemy when your going to do it. Maybe some of you folks understand why that should be done.
I agree with you to a point. But I am skeptical that keeping it a secret or not publishing the start date, or anticipated conclusion of any withdrawal would have made much difference. The Afghans on the ground would have smelt it almost immediately, and a secret involving the movement of tens of thousands of people and tons of materiale would have been -- can we be honest a little? -- impossible to keep.
I understand the interest in blaming Biden. But focusing on withdrawal and not the fatal decisions of the prior administrations (note: plural) is just stupid, and the stuff of the very "Media" elites you folks love to hate.
"interest in blaming"? I don't think anyone is finding any glee in settling old scores over this mess, especially after Americans were killed today. Withdrawal is paramount now and things may get much worse. Of course focus belongs there! That said, the article makes good points about our past policy in general. To try burying or down playing though what is currently happening within past blunders, currently a direct result of Biden mismanagement, is disingenuous.
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:28 pm
by seacoaster
No one is “burying or downplaying.” We are placing the withdrawal in factual context. In context, Biden will have gotten us out, where everyone else vacillated.
cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:34 pm
I guess I can be redundant here. When you to make a strategic withdrawal... Don't effing tell the enemy when your going to do it. Maybe some of you folks understand why that should be done.
I agree with you to a point. But I am skeptical that keeping it a secret or not publishing the start date, or anticipated conclusion of any withdrawal would have made much difference. The Afghans on the ground would have smelt it almost immediately, and a secret involving the movement of tens of thousands of people and tons of materiale would have been -- can we be honest a little? -- impossible to keep.
I understand the interest in blaming Biden. But focusing on withdrawal and not the fatal decisions of the prior administrations (note: plural) is just stupid, and the stuff of the very "Media" elites you folks love to hate.
"interest in blaming"? I don't think anyone is finding any glee in settling old scores over this mess, especially after Americans were killed today. Withdrawal is paramount now and things may get much worse. Of course focus belongs there! That said, the article makes good points about our past policy in general. To try burying or down playing though what is currently happening within past blunders, currently a direct result of Biden mismanagement, is disingenuous.
Do you think we would have had an easier time with 8,000 troops and 5,000 Taliban prisoners in jail or 2,500 troops and 5,000 Taliban prisoners released? Do you think it would have been easier to get people out with a ceasefire or without a ceasefire?
Re: Taliban reclaims Afghanistan
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:37 pm
by tech37
seacoaster wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:28 pm
No one is “burying or downplaying.” We are placing the withdrawal in factual context. In context, Biden will have gotten us out, where everyone else vacillated.
Fine. The factual mismanaged withdrawal in factual context. I only wish they had thought things out...so do our allies I'm sure.
The Taliban are our partners. I pointed it out earlier. The USA backed the Taliban. It has been obvious.
Clarify
We reached an agreement with the Taliban. We expected them to take control of the country as we left. We didn’t require them to stop fighting the Afghan government. We told the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners. The leadership in the provinces cut their deals with who they expected to be in charge based on who we reached an agreement with. No resistance because those people aren’t as stupid as we think just because they wear robes and funny hats. Why fight for us for 3-4 more weeks, which is what we expected. Haven’t read where we thought the Afghan government would prevail….if so, why cut a deal with the losers?
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
The Taliban are our partners. I pointed it out earlier. The USA backed the Taliban. It has been obvious.
Clarify
We reached an agreement with the Taliban. We expected them to take control of the country as we left. We didn’t require them to stop fighting the Afghan government. We told the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners. The leadership in the provinces cut their deals with who they expected to be in charge based on who we reached an agreement with. No resistance because those people aren’t as stupid as we think just because they wear robes and funny hats. Why fight for us for 3-4 more weeks, which is what we expected. Haven’t read where we thought the Afghan government would prevail….if so, why cut a deal with the losers?
Seems pretty obvious but what do I know…
So why then, did we evacuate the way we did?
So why did we leave so many weapons for the Afghans Army to use if we knew it was futile?
Why did we intentionally leave so many people?
If we knew what you describe...then this administration clearly set up a death trap for our citizen and allies. And sending the military back in, was just optics and they could care less about their lives.
This is not about them, regardless of how smart they are.....it is about us and our decisions. What am I missing?
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
The British had the intell on this potential attack hours before it happened. Who the eff was in charge of security at the gates? How the eff could this happen? A rhetorical question, stupid people in charge, I hope someone is held accountable, i doubt that will ever happen. POTUS Biden says... the buck stops with everybody else and never reached his desk. Gotta be trumps fault...
The Taliban are our partners. I pointed it out earlier. The USA backed the Taliban. It has been obvious.
Clarify
We reached an agreement with the Taliban. We expected them to take control of the country as we left. We didn’t require them to stop fighting the Afghan government. We told the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners. The leadership in the provinces cut their deals with who they expected to be in charge based on who we reached an agreement with. No resistance because those people aren’t as stupid as we think just because they wear robes and funny hats. Why fight for us for 3-4 more weeks, which is what we expected. Haven’t read where we thought the Afghan government would prevail….if so, why cut a deal with the losers?
Seems pretty obvious but what do I know…
1. So why then, did we evacuate the way we did?
So why did we leave so many weapons for the Afghans Army to use if we knew it was futile?
Why did we intentionally leave so many people?
If we knew what you describe...then this administration clearly set up a death trap for our citizen and allies. And sending the military back in, was just optics and they could care less about their lives.
This is not about them, regardless of how smart they are.....it is about us and our decisions. What am I missing?
Explain to me how you believe we didn’t back the Taliban, which was what I pointed out. I don’t know the logistics you are asking about. We have evidence of the USA government backing the Taliban’s play.
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
Nonsense.
We need to leave this god forsaken viper pit.
More than forty years of war in Afghanistan. We already have a new civil war brewing between the Taliban, ISIS-K, and Northern militias/Afghan security forces remnants.
We didn’t have control over the country even when we had over a hundred thousand troops there. Twenty years of trying to build this nation into a democracy … over a trillion dollars and thousands of Americans lives sacrificed in the effort.
And for what?
President Biden made the hard decision and was willing to take the inevitable political hit that none of his three predecessors were willing to take. If it had been up to Biden, the United States would have left Afghanistan 12 years ago.
There was never going to be a “clean” exit from Afghanistan.
Afghanistan has victimized Alexander the Great, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the United States.
Only delusional trash would have expected a different outcome.
The Taliban are our partners. I pointed it out earlier. The USA backed the Taliban. It has been obvious.
Clarify
We reached an agreement with the Taliban. We expected them to take control of the country as we left. We didn’t require them to stop fighting the Afghan government. We told the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners. The leadership in the provinces cut their deals with who they expected to be in charge based on who we reached an agreement with. No resistance because those people aren’t as stupid as we think just because they wear robes and funny hats. Why fight for us for 3-4 more weeks, which is what we expected. Haven’t read where we thought the Afghan government would prevail….if so, why cut a deal with the losers?
Seems pretty obvious but what do I know…
So why then, did we evacuate the way we did?
So why did we leave so many weapons for the Afghans Army to use if we knew it was futile?
Why did we intentionally leave so many people?
If we knew what you describe...then this administration clearly set up a death trap for our citizen and allies. And sending the military back in, was just optics and they could care less about their lives.
This is not about them, regardless of how smart they are.....it is about us and our decisions. What am I missing?
Your not missing a thing. A strategic withdrawal begins with not telling the enemy when, where or how you will leave. I was stunned a couple of weeks ago when we just abandoned Bagram AF base with no notice to our Afghan allies. Leaving Afghanistan had to happen. it should never have happened in this manner. A cluster fudge is too kind of a term to use for this abomination. I can see endless hearings in congress about this chitshow about who the hell was in charge of this mess. DEPLORABLE in every sense of the word. Heads need to roll, but heads probably will be promoted.
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
The British had the intell on this potential attack hours before it happened. Who the eff was in charge of security at the gates? How the eff could this happen? A rhetorical question, stupid people in charge, I hope someone is held accountable, i doubt that will ever happen. POTUS Biden says... the buck stops with everybody else and never reached his desk. Gotta be trumps fault...
It was widely reported that we were telling people to stay away from gates. Not sure why military personnel was there. Have to ask the commanding officer what the orders were. I was surprised to see the number of American soldiers killed. We should have been out of there years ago.
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
Nonsense.
We need to leave this god forsaken viper pit.
More than forty years of war in Afghanistan. We already have a new civil war brewing between the Taliban, ISIS-K, and Northern militias/Afghan security forces remnants.
We didn’t have control over the country even when we had over a hundred thousand troops there. Twenty years of trying to build this nation into a democracy … over a trillion dollars and thousands of Americans lives sacrificed in the effort.
And for what?
President Biden made the hard decision and was willing to take the inevitable political hit that none of his three predecessors were willing to take. If it had been up to Biden, the United States would have left Afghanistan 12 years ago.
There was never going to be a “clean” exit from Afghanistan.
Afghanistan has victimized Alexander the Great, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the United States.
Only delusional trash would have expected a different outcome.
DocBarrister
"There was never going to be a “clean” exit from Afghanistan."
PURE BULLCHIT... A strategic withdrawal is something every military unit practices at some point in time. It starts with not telling the enemy what day you plan on bugging out.
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
Nonsense.
We need to leave this god forsaken viper pit.
More than forty years of war in Afghanistan. We already have a new civil war brewing between the Taliban, ISIS-K, and Northern militias/Afghan security forces remnants.
We didn’t have control over the country even when we had over a hundred thousand troops there. Twenty years of trying to build this nation into a democracy … over a trillion dollars and thousands of Americans lives sacrificed in the effort.
And for what?
President Biden made the hard decision and was willing to take the inevitable political hit that none of his three predecessors were willing to take. If it had been up to Biden, the United States would have left Afghanistan 12 years ago.
There was never going to be a “clean” exit from Afghanistan.
Afghanistan has victimized Alexander the Great, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the United States.
Only delusional trash would have expected a different outcome.
DocBarrister
Yes on Alexander The Great. I read a tremendous biography on him. When I saw we were fighting in some of the exact same places when we went in, I shook my head.
The leadership of this country has lost their f***ing minds. They are trusting the safety of our service members to the mother effing Taliban. Sure you mother effing dumbasses... Un mother effing believable. What member of the Biden 3 ring circus dreamed up this effing fresh pile of horse dung. Sure, share our intelligence with the people that want us dead.
Nonsense.
We need to leave this god forsaken viper pit.
More than forty years of war in Afghanistan. We already have a new civil war brewing between the Taliban, ISIS-K, and Northern militias/Afghan security forces remnants.
We didn’t have control over the country even when we had over a hundred thousand troops there. Twenty years of trying to build this nation into a democracy … over a trillion dollars and thousands of Americans lives sacrificed in the effort.
And for what?
President Biden made the hard decision and was willing to take the inevitable political hit that none of his three predecessors were willing to take. If it had been up to Biden, the United States would have left Afghanistan 12 years ago.
There was never going to be a “clean” exit from Afghanistan.
Afghanistan has victimized Alexander the Great, the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the United States.
Only delusional trash would have expected a different outcome.
DocBarrister
"There was never going to be a “clean” exit from Afghanistan."
PURE BULLCHIT... A strategic withdrawal is something every military unit practices at some point in time. It starts with not telling the enemy what day you plan on bugging out.
Like telling them you will be gone by May 1st and then drawing down to a skeleton crew to show “good faith”?
The Taliban are our partners. I pointed it out earlier. The USA backed the Taliban. It has been obvious.
Clarify
We reached an agreement with the Taliban. We expected them to take control of the country as we left. We didn’t require them to stop fighting the Afghan government. We told the Afghan government to release the Taliban prisoners. The leadership in the provinces cut their deals with who they expected to be in charge based on who we reached an agreement with. No resistance because those people aren’t as stupid as we think just because they wear robes and funny hats. Why fight for us for 3-4 more weeks, which is what we expected. Haven’t read where we thought the Afghan government would prevail….if so, why cut a deal with the losers?
Seems pretty obvious but what do I know…
So why then, did we evacuate the way we did?
So why did we leave so many weapons for the Afghans Army to use if we knew it was futile?
Why did we intentionally leave so many people?
If we knew what you describe...then this administration clearly set up a death trap for our citizen and allies. And sending the military back in, was just optics and they could care less about their lives.
This is not about them, regardless of how smart they are.....it is about us and our decisions. What am I missing?
Your not missing a thing. A strategic withdrawal begins with not telling the enemy when, where or how you will leave. I was stunned a couple of weeks ago when we just abandoned Bagram AF base with no notice to our Afghan allies. Leaving Afghanistan had to happen. it should never have happened in this manner. A cluster fudge is too kind of a term to use for this abomination. I can see endless hearings in congress about this chitshow about who the hell was in charge of this mess. DEPLORABLE in every sense of the word. Heads need to roll, but heads probably will be promoted.
You mean President Trump shouldn’t have signed a treaty with the Taliban requiring the United States to leave by May 1, 2021?
