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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:56 pm
by old salt
Lots of political momentum building for transfer of Migs from Poland & maybe Slovokia &/or Bulgaria.
As critical would be a transfer of Soviet vintage mobile air defense systems - SAMs & radars - which the Ukrainians know how to deploy, maintain & operate. All our former Warsaw Pact NATO allies still have this old stuff.
(an indication of how poorly armed & equipped our newer allies are -- decades wasted)
Supplying either planes or air defense systems will cut into the already meager defensive capability of the providing country.
This would require backfill in the providing country with US or EU nation deployed units & equipment.
Expensive & politically challenging. Risk vs reward ?
In hindsight -- it might have worked if started 6 mos ago. Now -- ? too late ?
? Can Ukraine effectively use this stuff & chances of quick destruction by Russian missile or air strikes ?
It's disgusting watching politicians finger point over "who lost Ukraine". They ALL did.
There was never this level of support to provide the level of military assistance needed to make a difference -- for valid reasons.
Putin saw a soft spot, in NATO, the EU & the US, & exploited it.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:15 pm
by Kismet
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:56 pm
Lots of political momentum building for transfer of Migs from Poland & maybe Slovokia &/or Bulgaria.
As critical would be a transfer of Soviet vintage mobile air defense systems - SAMs & radars - which the Ukrainians know how to deploy, maintain & operate. All our former Warsaw Pact NATO allies still have this old stuff.
(an indication of how poorly armed & equipped our newer allies are -- decades wasted)
Supplying either planes or air defense systems will cut into the already meager defensive capability of the providing country.
This would require backfill in the providing country with US or EU nation deployed units & equipment.
Expensive & politically challenging. Risk vs reward ?
In hindsight -- it might have worked if started 6 mos ago. Now -- ? too late ?
? Can Ukraine effectively use this stuff & chances of quick destruction by Russian missile or air strikes ?
https://eurasiantimes.com/us-ready-to-s ... h-fighter/
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/0 ... e-00014424
Poland wants to purchase additional F-16s (which they already operate) to replace any aircraft they transfer to Ukraine but there are hurdles to clear
"The issue of transferring American F-16s to Poland is a complex one, given the sensitive avionics on American planes that may not always be legal to transfer overseas."
Don't know what they mean here as Poland already operates their own F-16s currently and then, of course, who foots the bill for the cost of the replacement F-16s?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:33 pm
by old salt
Kismet wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:15 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:56 pm
Lots of political momentum building for transfer of Migs from Poland & maybe Slovokia &/or Bulgaria.
As critical would be a transfer of Soviet vintage mobile air defense systems - SAMs & radars - which the Ukrainians know how to deploy, maintain & operate. All our former Warsaw Pact NATO allies still have this old stuff.
(an indication of how poorly armed & equipped our newer allies are -- decades wasted)
Supplying either planes or air defense systems will cut into the already meager defensive capability of the providing country.
This would require backfill in the providing country with US or EU nation deployed units & equipment.
Expensive & politically challenging. Risk vs reward ?
In hindsight -- it might have worked if started 6 mos ago. Now -- ? too late ?
? Can Ukraine effectively use this stuff & chances of quick destruction by Russian missile or air strikes ?
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/0 ... e-00014424
Poland wants to purchase additional F-16s (which they already operate) to replace any aircraft they transfer to Ukraine but there are hurdles to clear
"The issue of transferring American F-16s to Poland is a complex one, given the sensitive avionics on American planes that may not always be legal to transfer overseas."
Don't know what they mean here as Poland already operates their own F-16s currently and then, of course, who foots the bill for the cost of the replacement F-16s?
Poland has older model F-16s, different cockpit, comm, nav & weapons systems. Need to be uniform & compatible across the entire Polish F-16 fleet. Might not be a quick fix. Could take months to backfill with compatible F-16's. Might also require training training for Polish Mig pilots to the F-16. The plan was for Poland to continue operating the Mig 29 until replaced by new F-35s.
That need not be a deal breaker. In the meantime, backfill could be USAF F-16's based in Spangdahlem, Germany & Aviano, Italy, doing short hop deployments to stand strip alert in Poland. The flight time from Germany or Italy is short enough to use F-16's based there. Additional F-16's from US units could backfill to the German & Italian bases as part of surging more forces to NATO, pushing combat capability eastward.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:44 pm
by old salt
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:33 pm
Kismet wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:15 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:56 pm
Lots of political momentum building for transfer of Migs from Poland & maybe Slovokia &/or Bulgaria.
As critical would be a transfer of Soviet vintage mobile air defense systems - SAMs & radars - which the Ukrainians know how to deploy, maintain & operate. All our former Warsaw Pact NATO allies still have this old stuff.
(an indication of how poorly armed & equipped our newer allies are -- decades wasted)
Supplying either planes or air defense systems will cut into the already meager defensive capability of the providing country.
This would require backfill in the providing country with US or EU nation deployed units & equipment.
Expensive & politically challenging. Risk vs reward ?
In hindsight -- it might have worked if started 6 mos ago. Now -- ? too late ?
? Can Ukraine effectively use this stuff & chances of quick destruction by Russian missile or air strikes ?
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/03/0 ... e-00014424
Poland wants to purchase additional F-16s (which they already operate) to replace any aircraft they transfer to Ukraine but there are hurdles to clear
"The issue of transferring American F-16s to Poland is a complex one, given the sensitive avionics on American planes that may not always be legal to transfer overseas."
Don't know what they mean here as Poland already operates their own F-16s currently and then, of course, who foots the bill for the cost of the replacement F-16s?
Poland has older model F-16s, different cockpit, comm, nav & weapons systems. Need to be uniform & compatible across the entire Polish F-16 fleet. Might not be a quick fix. Could take months to backfill with compatible F-16's. Might also require training training for Polish Mig pilots to the F-16. The plan was for Poland to continue operating the Mig 29 until replaced by new F-35s.
That need not be a deal breaker. In the meantime, backfill could be USAF F-16's based in Spangdahlem, Germany & Aviano, Italy, doing short hop deployments to stand strip alert in Poland. The flight time from Germany or Italy is short enough to use F-16's based there. Additional F-16's from US units could backfill to the German & Italian bases as part of surging more forces to NATO, pushing combat capability eastward.
This is the USAF F-16 inventory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_D ... _operators
The USAF operates 1,245 F-16s with 701 with active forces, 490 with Air National Guard and 54 with Reserve. These are broken down to 1 F-16A Block 15, 197 F-16C/D Block 25, 350 F-16C/D Block 30, 51 F-16C/D Block 32, 222 F-16C/D Block 40, 174 F-16C/D Block 42, 198 F-16C/D Block 50, 52 F-16C/D Block 52.
The Poles operate a version of Block 52+
The Polish Block 52+ F-16s are equipped with the latest Pratt and Whitney F-100-229 afterburning turbofan engines, and the avionics suite includes the APG-68(V)9 terrain mapping radar system and the ALQ-211(V)4 electronic warfare suite. All Polish F-16s can carry modern US precision ordnance, ranging from the JDAM/JSOW to the latest in export-certificate-authorized air-to-air weaponry (including the AIM-120C-5 and AIM-9X).
https://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article ... 0in%20NATO.
Poland ordered a total of 48 F-16C/D block 52 aircraft, thus becoming the first former WarPac member to operate the F-16 Fighting Falcon.
Equiped with JHMCS and Sniper ER pods, and aremd with AIM-9X, AIM-120C, JSOW and JDAM, the Polish F-16s will be the most advanced in NATO.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:36 pm
by Essexfenwick
Most of the banks in Russia have announced that they will be moving over to the chicom credit card Unionpay going forward after the globalist US based credit card companies announced a boycott of Russian customers. The chicoms are absolutely loving this whole thing. Collapsing the dollar. Russia supplying discounted oil and gas. And Russians now buying chicom smart phones and using chicom credit cards. Could Biden hurt the US any more if he was trying?
Hey Biden, it's not the 1980's anymore. The chicoms, unlike the USSR, is a legitimate threat to the US economically and militarily. And JoeTard is playing right into their hands, almost like that's the plan or something.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:39 pm
by old salt
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:56 pm
It's disgusting watching politicians finger point over "who lost Ukraine". They ALL did.
There was never this level of support to provide the level of military assistance needed to make a difference -- for valid reasons.
Putin saw a soft spot, in NATO, the EU & the US, & exploited it.
Until the intel started flowing in a few mos ago, NOBODY expected a full scale invasion.
The lethal aid & training we were providing was geared toward countering the separatists in the Donbass & a Russian incursion in the SE.
It was hard enough to generate the bi-partisan support to do that much.
Frankly. The Ukrainians did not yet merit more than that. They had not yet demonstrated a nationalism & will to defend their country & maintain a democracy, rather than successive versions of a corrupt oligarchy.
Zelensky had yet to demonstrate his abilities as a reformer & leader.
Hindsight is 20/20. We should not have a national guilt trip over having not done more for Ukraine sooner.
Had we done more sooner, it may have prompted Putin to invade sooner.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:03 pm
by cradleandshoot
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:56 pm
Lots of political momentum building for transfer of Migs from Poland & maybe Slovokia &/or Bulgaria.
As critical would be a transfer of Soviet vintage mobile air defense systems - SAMs & radars - which the Ukrainians know how to deploy, maintain & operate. All our former Warsaw Pact NATO allies still have this old stuff.
(an indication of how poorly armed & equipped our newer allies are -- decades wasted)
Supplying either planes or air defense systems will cut into the already meager defensive capability of the providing country.
This would require backfill in the providing country with US or EU nation deployed units & equipment.
Expensive & politically challenging. Risk vs reward ?
In hindsight -- it might have worked if started 6 mos ago. Now -- ? too late ?
? Can Ukraine effectively use this stuff & chances of quick destruction by Russian missile or air strikes ?
It's disgusting watching politicians finger point over "who lost Ukraine". They ALL did.
There was never this level of support to provide the level of military assistance needed to make a difference -- for valid reasons.
Putin saw a soft spot, in NATO, the EU & the US, & exploited it.
+1 a brilliant post OS. No one one this forum could say it any better. The time to help Ukraine was over 6 months ago, when the help might have made a difference.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:32 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:34 pm
by Essexfenwick
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:49 pm
by Brooklyn
cradle,
The time to help Ukraine was over 6 months ago, when the help might have made a difference.
Since cradle "ignores" my posts he won't see my reply {yeah, right}. But the actual time was 20 years well after Uke broke away from Russia but failed to take proper steps to align itself with NATO. It will be recalled that it supported Bush's war of imperialistic terrorism on Iraq. He in turn called for Uke membership in NATO. Kuchma agreed to play along with it but decided against actually joining. I do not remember why. IIRC they argued against his alleged corruption and he would have had to resign or something like that for it to be deemed worthy of membership. Therefore, it actually was that country that blew its chances of joining.
Had it joined and had the world stopped Bush from his 2 invasions, Putin would never have been emboldened to attack.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:05 pm
by old salt
You're wasting readers time. That was 2 years ago. They got that stuff & more. Find a new TDS excuse.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:16 pm
by Brooklyn
Interesting that they acknowledged Obama's support as being more effective than tRump's efforts. One wonders if the tide of Donbas's freedom fighting efforts could have been stopped if Uke got that support that had been made by Congress. Perhaps as they say, tRump delayed any such aid because of his insistence on having Biden's son financial interests there investigated. One can only speculate. But the bottom line is clear that tRump did hold back support for Zalenskyy while many in the pro war camp are blaming Biden for the events today.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:21 pm
by MDlaxfan76
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:05 pm
You're wasting readers time. That was 2 years ago. They got that stuff & more. Find a new TDS excuse.
yup, but I think the point is that the current Admin has done far, far more arming of Ukraine that had the prior Admin, which had actually been using arms as a blackmail weapon while lobbying for the lifting of various sanctions on Russia.
While that is moot and I think an unnecessary argument at this point, so too is any snide remarks about what could have been done 6 months ago. That is, if you meant it that way.
But I'll assume not and that all you were really saying is that this assistance to Ukraine's defenses takes time to implement, time that may not be available at this point.
You made an excellent point that the will to provide this level of assistance did not previously exist on either side of the aisle, nor with our NATO allies.
But it does now. We've had an enormous wake up call. Some of us had been warning of Putin's proclivities and intentions for quite awhile. And very unfortunately, he's proving those warnings correct.
And my warning now is that if he takes Ukraine swiftly (and it's only day 11 folks!) he'll be emboldened to do more and more. He wants a direct fight with NATO...or appeasement. And appeasement will only whet the appetite.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:28 pm
by dislaxxic
Russian Prisoner video on Twitter
Some of what Vlad doesn't want his countrymen to see or hear...
..
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:41 pm
by Brooklyn
A major teachable moment for those of you on the pro war side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD3XEat ... ifthColumn
comments by viewers:
absolutely, in Denmark some parties refused to let in refugees from Ukraine who were not Ukrainian/ white. Fortunately the government excluded those parties, and Denmark does now accept also non-white Ukrainians refugees. But it is an embarrassment that it was even an issue
... Afghanistan. Iraq. Yemen. Syria. The Palestinians. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
This has been on my mind. The level of concern for the Ukrainian people is certainly affected by their skin tone.
People are running from a war zone.
It does not matter their skin color, religion or lack thereof.
It is time for being a human being and doing the right thing.
Sad but unsurprising. Racism is universal, alas. Thanks for bringing more attention to this important issue. Coverage on it has been muted or lacking in the media on the whole.
The only reason so many are concerned about Ukraine is because they are white Europeans. As I have noted on this forum previously, FAR more people have died in the East African border crises and nobody has lifted a finger to help any of those people. How about you pro war people to apply your standards on a uniform basis just this once?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:53 pm
by jhu72
... US intel doesn't believe attack on Odessa will happen anytime soon. (Reuters)
... Denmark like Sweden and Norway now looking at NATO membership. (AP)
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:04 pm
by old salt
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:21 pm
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:05 pm
You're wasting readers time. That was 2 years ago. They got that stuff & more. Find a new TDS excuse.
yup, but I think the point is that the current Admin has done far, far more arming of Ukraine that had the prior Admin,
not until the troops began massing on the border, then they began pouring arms in. Ukraine was not invaded during the prior admin. which had actually been using arms as a blackmail weapon while lobbying for the lifting of various sanctions on Russia.
Trump left office 14 mos ago. That canard is irrelevant.
While that is moot and I think an unnecessary argument at this point
so why are you making it ? so too is any snide remarks about what could have been done 6 months ago.
nothing snide about pointing out it would take 6 mos to get what they need in place & train them how to use it. Soviet era Migs & SAMs are hard to come by & allies who provide them have to be backfilled. That is, if you meant it that way.
But I'll assume not
no you're not. Look at the innuendo you just implied above. and that all you were really saying is that this assistance to Ukraine's defenses takes time to implement, time that may not be available at this point.
Thanks for the benefit of the obvious.
You made an excellent point that the will to provide this level of assistance did not previously exist on either side of the aisle, nor with our NATO allies.
I'm not confident that it does now with our NATO allies & will not fade away here.
But it does now. We've had an enormous wake up call. Some of us had been warning of Putin's proclivities and intentions for quite awhile. And very unfortunately, he's proving those warnings correct.
...& some of us have been pointing out the historical basis for his grievances & were demeaned as unpatriotic Russian agents
And my warning now is that if he takes Ukraine swiftly (and it's only day 11 folks!) he'll be emboldened to do more and more. He wants a direct fight with NATO...or appeasement.
So any outcome other than war with NATO is appeasment ? Do you expect Putin to withdraw & surrender to the ICC ?And appeasement will only whet the appetite.
or he'll be chastened by the problems revealed in his military, be too bogged down with trying to occupy & pacify Ukraine & too damaged economically to invade another neighbor in the near term.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:12 pm
by old salt
jhu72 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:53 pm
... US intel doesn't believe attack on Odessa will happen anytime soon. (Reuters)
... Denmark like Sweden and Norway now looking at NATO membership. (AP)
Denmark is a founding member of NATO. Do you mean Finland ?
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:16 pm
by Typical Lax Dad
old salt wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 7:05 pm
You're wasting readers time. That was 2 years ago. They got that stuff & more. Find a new TDS excuse.
Fossil. Time is running out.
Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:20 pm
by old salt