LaxPower Back-Up Stick

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 4:11 pm Who the fcuk does Bibi think he is, exactly? Really, tell the populace of a "sovereign" nation to evacuate? To paraphrase Caesar Augustus, "I'd rather be Israel's swine than its neighbor."

"Israel orders evacuation of southern Lebanese city as Beirut strikes continue"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/ ... y-nabatieh

Pretty sure the US is on the wrong side of this and that history will reflect that.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:58 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

The deal might not have been solely with us but once we opted out it could not be continued because we were going to re-institute the previous sanctions regimen which voided everything. In hindsight, given that we all knew it was reversible by those who opposed it here in America and who could undo it we likely should not have tried it in the first place.

The damage done for us is that NOBODY is going to trust or work with us ever again under these circumstances. I'm sure you'll be happy about that as well.

and here we are, with Israel talking about bombing nuclear sites (that are miles underground and out of reach of the largest bunker busting bombs we provide them that won't eliminate the threat anyway).

But you all will feel better talking tough

OCanada wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:04 pm

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:58 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

The deal might not have been solely with us but once we opted out it could not be continued because we were going to re-institute the previous sanctions regimen which voided everything. In hindsight, given that we all knew it was reversible by those who opposed it here in America and who could undo it we likely should not have tried it in the first place.

The damage done for us is that NOBODY is going to trust or work with us ever again under these circumstances. I'm sure you'll be happy about that as well.

and here we are, with Israel talking about bombing nuclear sites (that are miles underground and out of reach of the largest bunker busting bombs we provide them that won't eliminate the threat anyway).

But you all will feel better talking tough

The USA assembled the players snd used political capital to do it. Trump was an embarrassment before and since. We are the leader of the free world without us thete is no agreement.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:16 pm

OCanada wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 6:04 pm

Kismet wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:58 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

The deal might not have been solely with us but once we opted out it could not be continued because we were going to re-institute the previous sanctions regimen which voided everything. In hindsight, given that we all knew it was reversible by those who opposed it here in America and who could undo it we likely should not have tried it in the first place.

The damage done for us is that NOBODY is going to trust or work with us ever again under these circumstances. I'm sure you'll be happy about that as well.

and here we are, with Israel talking about bombing nuclear sites (that are miles underground and out of reach of the largest bunker busting bombs we provide them that won't eliminate the threat anyway).

But you all will feel better talking tough

The USA assembled the players snd used political capital to do it. Trump was an embarrassment before and since. We are the leader of the free world without us thete is no agreement.

What is happening in Israel today has nothing to do with trump. This present situation has been many years percolating. October 7 changed everything for Israel. It is impossible to have a discussion we people whose prime objective is to wipe your nation off the face of the earth. trump isn't responsible for training, arming and supporting Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists. At least have enough integrity to put the blame where the blame belongs. Having an Iranian general vaporized in an Israeli strike on Hezbollah terrorists speaks volumes to the culpability of Iran. That general wasn't there to direct traffic. It is a sad state of affairs that the predominantly peace loving people of Iran are being led by insane religious fanatics.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:52 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

Of course Iran is A problem; that’s why it is so tenuous. But the US, whether we like it or not, is the indispensable nation in the international order. Our walking from the deal dissolved it.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:52 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

Of course Iran is A problem; that’s why it is so tenuous. But the US, whether we like it or not, is the indispensable nation in the international order. Our walking from the deal dissolved it.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:11 am When has Iran ever NOT been tenuous? Which is it, are we still playing the Global Cop or not, being viewed as "nationalism"....better than everyone else, while also dancing in this concerted push for Globalism? Sure, we can walk and chew gum, but at some point, we do have to believe a country when they 'SHOW' just who and what they are, and ultimately want.

I thought I've read on here that we should no longer be in that role as Global Cop, it seems nothing more than a game with them (see bold above) Zoom the lens in...the only reason we have to even consider a Deal/Treaty is b/c we fear them and what they are capable of doing. Ultimately all we and NATO are doing is enabling bad behavior that gets re-directed.

Full circle....this is why Bibi ain't letting up, it reached a tipping point b/c Iran and their proxy terrorists are relentless in their pursuit of islamist fundamentalism. If you recall, BHO warned us all of crude Nationalism, when Trump was entering the scene. And Iran has been in this mode forever and has shown they ain't falling for globalism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ7_M7t0TIA

It certainly is a challenging dance. Appreciate the chat.

Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:31 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:11 am When has Iran ever NOT been tenuous? Which is it, are we still playing the Global Cop or not, being viewed as "nationalism"....better than everyone else, while also dancing in this concerted push for Globalism? Sure, we can walk and chew gum, but at some point, we do have to believe a country when they 'SHOW' just who and what they are, and ultimately want.

I thought I've read on here that we should no longer be in that role as Global Cop, it seems nothing more than a game with them (see bold above) Zoom the lens in...the only reason we have to even consider a Deal/Treaty is b/c we fear them and what they are capable of doing. Ultimately all we and NATO are doing is enabling bad behavior that gets re-directed.

Full circle....this is why Bibi ain't letting up, it reached a tipping point b/c Iran and their proxy terrorists are relentless in their pursuit of islamist fundamentalism. If you recall, BHO warned us all of crude Nationalism, when Trump was entering the scene. And Iran has been in this mode forever and has shown they ain't falling for globalism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ7_M7t0TIA

It certainly is a challenging dance. Appreciate the chat.

The ultimate question then might be (and was and still is) - how to deal with the Iranians once they have successfully constructed a nuclear weapon and a delivery system for it and that the mutually assured destruction theory might not apply.

Don't think we did the deal because we wanted to be friends - it was to limit their ability to go nuclear which would be an existential threat to Israel and possibly the world. Might explain why every country was in on it.

The problem for Bibi currently is - can they realistically destroy the entire nuclear system with the weapons systems they currently have at their disposal - because of they can't then the threat remains - not only to Israel but to the entire world.

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:54 am

Kismet wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:31 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:11 am When has Iran ever NOT been tenuous? Which is it, are we still playing the Global Cop or not, being viewed as "nationalism"....better than everyone else, while also dancing in this concerted push for Globalism? Sure, we can walk and chew gum, but at some point, we do have to believe a country when they 'SHOW' just who and what they are, and ultimately want.

I thought I've read on here that we should no longer be in that role as Global Cop, it seems nothing more than a game with them (see bold above) Zoom the lens in...the only reason we have to even consider a Deal/Treaty is b/c we fear them and what they are capable of doing. Ultimately all we and NATO are doing is enabling bad behavior that gets re-directed.

Full circle....this is why Bibi ain't letting up, it reached a tipping point b/c Iran and their proxy terrorists are relentless in their pursuit of islamist fundamentalism. If you recall, BHO warned us all of crude Nationalism, when Trump was entering the scene. And Iran has been in this mode forever and has shown they ain't falling for globalism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ7_M7t0TIA

It certainly is a challenging dance. Appreciate the chat.

The ultimate question then might be (and was and still is) - how to deal with the Iranians once they have successfully constructed a nuclear weapon and a delivery system for it and that the mutually assured destruction theory might not apply.

Don't think we did the deal because we wanted to be friends - it was to limit their ability to go nuclear which would be an existential threat to Israel and possibly the world. Might explain why every country was in on it.

The problem for Bibi currently is - can they realistically destroy the entire nuclear system with the weapons systems they currently have at their disposal - because of they can't then the threat remains - not only to Israel but to the entire world.

Some great podcasts out there to watch on Nuclear War. Annie Jacobsen has some recent podcast she's done, worth a watch. I did the Shawn Ryan Podcast and some of the Joe Rogan. One that she said stood out post Nuc War..... "The living, will envy the dead".

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:54 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:52 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

Of course Iran is A problem; that’s why it is so tenuous. But the US, whether we like it or not, is the indispensable nation in the international order. Our walking from the deal dissolved it.

Balogny, some deals are not worth the paper they are written on. This was one of them. Iranian leadership knows how to manipulate the leadership of the US government. Your hoping and praying that appeasing Iran and giving them what they want then they will suddenly play nice. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson the hard way. Iran should never be trusted. Their intentions and their ultimate goal is nothing short of evil.

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:11 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:54 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:52 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

Of course Iran is A problem; that’s why it is so tenuous. But the US, whether we like it or not, is the indispensable nation in the international order. Our walking from the deal dissolved it.

Balogny, some deals are not worth the paper they are written on. This was one of them. Iranian leadership knows how to manipulate the leadership of the US government. Your hoping and praying that appeasing Iran and giving them what they want then they will suddenly play nice. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson the hard way. Iran should never be trusted. Their intentions and their ultimate goal is nothing short of evil.

As you may recall, I’ve argued pretty vehemently against the America First isolationists on here as well as the left leaning isolationists. I’ve been clear that aggression should be deterred through strength and met resolutely when it occurs. History is darn clear, IMO.

However, we were encouraging moderation in Iran and it was working. Doesn’t mean that our military capability was no longer a critical deterrence, nor that the moderates would succeed. But it was working.

Trump unilaterally blew it up simply because it was an effort begun under Obama, with no replacement policy that had any chance of doing anything but lead to more hardliner behavior. It destroyed multilateralism and trust that America would keep its word.

And he gave full license to Netanyahu to continue expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank. Not that we have any real control of Israel, but Trump gave full license. Obviously that was going to create backlash.

Youth, I disagree that a deal could hold without America. We were indispensable.
If Iran had breached the deal I’d see this differently, but they didn’t. Trump stupidly blew it up unilaterally.

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 11:26 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 9:11 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 6:54 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:52 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 5:42 pm

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 1:56 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 9:49 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 8:40 am

cradleandshoot wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:31 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2024 7:13 am

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 9:50 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 8:55 pm

youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:11 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:39 pm

PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:20 pm

jhu72 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:09 pm Strange how the Iranian attack seems to have been "matched" roughly to Israel's defensive system's capability -- to within 10%. The US could clean up the overflow easily. Don't think this was a coincidence.

Some expensive posturing.

... that's my take. Iran wants relations with the US to normalize. Killing a bunch of innocents isn't going to help that cause. Doing nothing loses face in the neighborhood. Expensive light show, but apparently that's all it was meant to be. US kept it from being more. Which should be understood by Bibi.

Normalize beyond lifting sanctions 3 years ago and returning all their 16billion. What more do we need to do?

They want sanctions lifted. We broke the treaty NOT THEM!! We would be in an entirely different and better place if we had stayed the course, making Iranian heros out of the western favoring politicians. Instead, we fu*ked them and they retreated to the old hard liners. The western favoring politicians are back in power for the time being.

I am confused, Biden lifted sanctions and returned their 16 Billion. What treaty are you referencing?

I’m going to assume you aren’t gaslighting.

2015 deal between Iran and all permanent members UN Security Council and EU. Trump broke it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucl ... _framework

72 is correct about the implications of that to who was governing Iran. Moderates were pushed out by angry hardliners.

Ohhh, it was a United Nations concoction? The Iranian leadership sure is grateful to have tool bags like you and doc 72 carrying their water for them. Common sense would have been the US government tying up any payments to Iran in the court system for decades. The Iranian leadership provided the IEDs that killed and maimed many US service members in Iraq and Afghanistan. That 16 billion dollars should have allocated to the VA medical facilities where it could have been put to good use. I'm sure your consistent enough to not like that suggestion either.

Sigh. Read youth’s question. 72 was referring to the deal struck in 2015. Read the link.

That deal encouraged Iranian moderates who were in ascendence. It was a multilateral deal.

Trump immediately broke it and the hardliners used that to regain power. Fact.

With regard to the 16 billion, this was Never US money. We never had the ability to take it for our own use. To claim otherwise is just ignorant or stupid or gaslighting.

We’ve previously discussed the rationale for the release of Iran’s frozen funds, including the release of Americans in Iranian prisons, and if you want to do so again, ok. But it’s tedious that you can’t recall what has already been discussed.

Thanks....but I knew about this, It was NOT just the US in this deal, not to mention longstanding Iran Deals dating back half of centuries, and it was noted in your Wiki link, the 'Deal" was barely cobbled together in the first place; see below from your cite.

In addition to the final statement, both the United States and Iran have made public more detailed descriptions of their agreement. Officials of both sides acknowledge that they have different narratives on this draft.[9] The U.S. government has published a fact sheet summarizing the main points of the deal.[11] Shortly after it was published, top Iranian officials, including the Iranian supreme leader and the Iranian minister of defense have disputed the document on key points which remain unresolved.[12][13][14]

On 22 July 2015, Abbas Araghchi, Iran's deputy foreign minister who led the negotiations, made an announcement on state-controlled television that the recently reached nuclear deal with the world powers did not include limitations on Iran's weapons capabilities or missile power and that Tehran would keep arming its regional allies. "We have told them [the P5+1 world powers] in the negotiations that we will supply arms to anyone and anywhere necessary and will import weapons from anywhere we want and we have clarified this during the negotiations," Araghchi said.[15]
G.
In a speech the following Saturday, Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei added, "Our policy will not change with regards to the arrogant US government."[15]

Further, the Saudi's AND Israeal know full well that Iran is crooked as a 3 dollar bill, and all the deals and treaties ain't gonna stop a crooked country, when all they do is continually had militant proxies flare up all over the ME. To lay this at the US' feet, just seems like an inability to actually see the forest, for the trees.

I don’t know why you asked if you already knew what deal 72 was referring to.

Yes, the point is this was a multilateral deal in which numerous countries agreed to harness Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, including international inspections, else sanctions again. The deal strengthened the hand of moderates though you’re correct that there was some hardliner posturing in response. But moderates who advocated for the benefits of participation in the world economy were gaining power.

No guarantees that they would continue to be successful in moderating Iran, but that’s what the international community wanted, as did the US.

Trump dashed those hopes and the moderates were ousted as having failed. US can’t be trusted. And they restarted their program to get closer. They never made the decision to cross the line, but they want the option and threat. Huge issue if they ever do decide to go full nuclear weapons.

Of course we should have the same concern about their trustworthiness! Who is in power matters a lot. Just like here.

We want the moderates to succeed. The hardliners are flat nuts.

I asked b/c the deal was not solely with us, there were others (P5) involved. So, our dropping out, was not a (sole) reason for the failed Deal. It seems Iran has everyone caught up in the circular damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont, trap. You work Deals with them and appear to be playing nice, while they ramp up proxy terrorist orgs, then when things go sideways with the deals the terror cells star ramping up...all in an effort to blame someone else. RInse repeat. And Israel seems to always be within the bullseye or first ring inner rings.

The way I see it, Iran is the problem.

Of course Iran is A problem; that’s why it is so tenuous. But the US, whether we like it or not, is the indispensable nation in the international order. Our walking from the deal dissolved it.

Balogny, some deals are not worth the paper they are written on. This was one of them. Iranian leadership knows how to manipulate the leadership of the US government. Your hoping and praying that appeasing Iran and giving them what they want then they will suddenly play nice. Neville Chamberlain learned that lesson the hard way. Iran should never be trusted. Their intentions and their ultimate goal is nothing short of evil.

As you may recall, I’ve argued pretty vehemently against the America First isolationists on here as well as the left leaning isolationists. I’ve been clear that aggression should be deterred through strength and met resolutely when it occurs. History is darn clear, IMO.

However, we were encouraging moderation in Iran and it was working. Doesn’t mean that our military capability was no longer a critical deterrence, nor that the moderates would succeed. But it was working.

Trump unilaterally blew it up simply because it was an effort begun under Obama, with no replacement policy that had any chance of doing anything but lead to more hardliner behavior. It destroyed multilateralism and trust that America would keep its word.

And he gave full license to Netanyahu to continue expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank. Not that we have any real control of Israel, but Trump gave full license. Obviously that was going to create backlash.

Youth, I disagree that a deal could hold without America. We were indispensable.
If Iran had breached the deal I’d see this differently, but they didn’t. Trump stupidly blew it up unilaterally.

I don't believe the present leadership in Iran has any interest whatsoever in moderation. If they did why would they be funding, arming and training Hezbollah and Hamas fighters? That is sending a very clear signal to me what Irans actual intentions are. Perhaps you might considering ignoring what the Iranian leadership says and concentrate more on what they are doing. At this point in time Iran is a dangerous and unstabilizing force in the Middle East. Do all those missiles being launched by hooties in Yemen indicate to you that Iran is interested in moderating the trouble they are fomenting. Maybe it's time you put Iran in the same category you put trump in.
That would be dangerous and unpredictable. I don't know why the US government would even any consider any sort of agreement with Iran until they dial down the rhetoric and put a leash on their Hooty, Hamas and Hezbollah pit bulls?

youthathletics wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 8:35 am All the makings of a people that simply want the best for everyone: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ha ... efd2&ei=20