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choochooCharlie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:48 am Ok. This argument surmised in one paragraph

So someone hates the NESCAC, and points out Middlebury’s small OOC. Someone who loves the NESCAC retorts that the small OOC is conference mandated, and a high percentage of that small OOC are ranked opponents. NESCAC hater then responds by pointing out that the ranked OOC still is less in number than opposing top teams’ ranked OOC, and rarely has different opponents. NESCAC lover responds by citing that the committee will still take 4 NESCACs despite that.

You both stated undeniable facts. End of “argument.”
(I want you both on my debate team)

Nosey Ned wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 8:03 pm

Can Opener wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:22 pm

smoova wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:39 pm

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:16 pm Alls I know is usually a lot of work is put into constructing a schedule by coaching staffs. Midd plays the same handful of teams year in and and year out. (Between the lazy scheduling and the late start, I’d like to know what the heck is going on in the offices up there). And so those underwhelming wins, while still wins, IMO are just that- underwhelming.

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:16 pm Play more games. If that means starting earlier, so be it. (Who hasn’t shoveled a field before)

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:16 pm They have exactly one other OOC game. Springfield (like usual). What’s going on at Middlebury? Is funding an issue? Why do they play just 5 OOC games, 15 games total?

Like most NESCACs, Midd plays one mid-week game and (at least) one weekend game every week between their permitted start date and the first game of the NESCAC playoffs. Four of Midd's five OOC games are against preseason top-20 teams. 80% doesn't seem too shabby, but perhaps there are many non-NESCAC teams with more than 80% of their OOC games against top-20 teams. Could you name a few?

Most of this thread is silly -- of course Middlebury is playing a reasonably challenging schedule given the constraints of the NESCAC calendar. This does raise a good question about which DIII teams are playing the most challenging OOC schedule. Without reviewing all of the preseason top 20, I would point out that Denison's OOC opponents include RIT (#4), W&L (#7), Gettysburg (#9), Lynchburg (#10) and York (#11). Only two of those games are at home. I have always wondered why Denison doesn't try to schedule a NESCAC or two. They recruit well from Massachusetts already, but they have a differentiated offering from the NESCACs that may resonate with many New England prep players if Denison raised its profile here. Better stadium than any NESCAC, undergrad business major, less ardent on the political correctness, active social life incl. fraternities, safe/fun college town, excellent alumni network, merit aid available, full fall lax schedule, earlier commitment date, rising in the US News rankings, etc.

Denison did play 2 NESCAC opponents in 2018 going 1-1. They lost to Amherst 13-19 at the Mustang Classic and ironically beat the current focus of this thread, Middlebury, at home 12-7. Kudos to Middlebury for making a mid week trip to Ohio. I was hoping this would turn into an annual engagement but that never materialized. I too think that the Denison story plays well on the East Coast - one look at the Denison student body will show a decent portion of it hails from the same eastern prep schools that populate the NESCAC and Centennial institutions. Also why I was surprised Denison no longer participates in the Mustang Classic. I thought that was a great vehicle to raise the Big Red’s profile on the East Coast but obviously when the head coach changed so did the scheduling philosophy. That said, win a couple of the games against the Big Boys on the slate this year and you should have a good bump to your program. More than 1 way to skin a cat.

Chipzhoo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:30 am Maybe your issue is with the conference and not Midd...? Nescac teams play 15 regular season games. Pretty smart from an expenses standpoint to find Top 20 teams to play within reasonable travel distance(s). I'm sure if you were capable of being an AD you'd be operating in the red, among other problems.

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:33 pm

Chipzhoo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:30 am Maybe your issue is with the conference and not Midd...? Nescac teams play 15 regular season games. Pretty smart from an expenses standpoint to find Top 20 teams to play within reasonable travel distance(s). I'm sure if you were capable of being an AD you'd be operating in the red, among other problems.

Sheesh. Right back at it. Ya’ll appear to not like this sort of conversation, but apparently ya love fanning it’s flames.

Any team can schedule different foes. It might take time, and, dare I say, work, but as evident by teams actually doing so (even in the NESCAC) it can be done.

I get that the late start time is the leagues rule.
I get that lacrosse is probably not a huge consideration for any of this. I even get the advantages that offset these hinderances for an institution to be in a conference such as this (athletic, academic and financial).

But beyond the snark and jabs about me being an AD, are you really insinuating that “expenses” are what is keeping Middlebury lacrosse from rotating out just ONE of their foes? If so, perhaps it isn’t me you should be evaluating as bad at budget management. The potential to set up a home and home with a new for this year and next would even lead to freeing up those same travel finances next year for YET ANOTHER new foe, cycling out a second stale old one.

Teams are figuring it out. Why not Middlebury?
Or perhaps the players love just playing in conference, and the same handful of teams, for their entire 4 year career.

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

Jumbo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:52 pm

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

I think Lynchburg is one of the best tier two teams in the country.
Tier one this year is the top 4 teams.

Don’t know much about Hamilton, but it would be a surprise if they managed to upset Lynchburg

jumpman23 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:18 pm Thoughts on which nescac school has the best incoming freshman class?

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:56 pm

Jumbo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:52 pm

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

I think Lynchburg is one of the best tier two teams in the country.
Tier one this year is the top 4 teams.

Don’t know much about Hamilton, but it would be a surprise if they managed to upset Lynchburg

.1% chance. Only because NOTHING is 0% chance.

HighBouncersGo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:32 pm

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:56 pm

Jumbo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:52 pm

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

I think Lynchburg is one of the best tier two teams in the country.
Tier one this year is the top 4 teams.

Don’t know much about Hamilton, but it would be a surprise if they managed to upset Lynchburg

.1% chance. Only because NOTHING is 0% chance.

How can you be so sure RE6Ulater? Or are you just stirring the pot? I think this will be a great matchup to showcase the depth of the 'cac and lack thereof down south. Hamilton does have some graduates but brings back some key pieces as well. Lynchburg seems to have much of the same. Didn't go so well for hornets last time they played a nescac (tufts) although was similar result to hamilton v tufts

HighBouncersGo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:32 pm

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:56 pm

Jumbo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:52 pm

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

I think Lynchburg is one of the best tier two teams in the country.
Tier one this year is the top 4 teams.

Don’t know much about Hamilton, but it would be a surprise if they managed to upset Lynchburg

.1% chance. Only because NOTHING is 0% chance.

How can you be so sure RE6Ulater? Or are you just stirring the pot? I think this will be a great matchup to showcase the depth of the 'cac and lack thereof down south. Hamilton does have some graduates but brings back some key pieces as well. Lynchburg seems to have much of the same. Didn't go so well for hornets last time they played a nescac (tufts) although was similar result to hamilton v tufts

2laxers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:08 pm

HighBouncersGo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:32 pm

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:56 pm

Jumbo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:52 pm

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

I think Lynchburg is one of the best tier two teams in the country.
Tier one this year is the top 4 teams.

Don’t know much about Hamilton, but it would be a surprise if they managed to upset Lynchburg

.1% chance. Only because NOTHING is 0% chance.

How can you be so sure RE6Ulater? Or are you just stirring the pot? I think this will be a great matchup to showcase the depth of the 'cac and lack thereof down south. Hamilton does have some graduates but brings back some key pieces as well. Lynchburg seems to have much of the same. Didn't go so well for hornets last time they played a nescac (tufts) although was similar result to hamilton v tufts

One thing Hamilton has going for them is Lynchburg is playing Stevenson Friday at 8:00. Then need to be ready to play Hamilton at 3:30 the next day. Playing two games in 19 1/2 hours is crazy.

Unknown Participant wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:15 pm

2laxers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:08 pm

HighBouncersGo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:32 pm

RE6ULATOR wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:56 pm

Jumbo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:52 pm

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

I think Lynchburg is one of the best tier two teams in the country.
Tier one this year is the top 4 teams.

Don’t know much about Hamilton, but it would be a surprise if they managed to upset Lynchburg

.1% chance. Only because NOTHING is 0% chance.

How can you be so sure RE6Ulater? Or are you just stirring the pot? I think this will be a great matchup to showcase the depth of the 'cac and lack thereof down south. Hamilton does have some graduates but brings back some key pieces as well. Lynchburg seems to have much of the same. Didn't go so well for hornets last time they played a nescac (tufts) although was similar result to hamilton v tufts

One thing Hamilton has going for them is Lynchburg is playing Stevenson Friday at 8:00. Then need to be ready to play Hamilton at 3:30 the next day. Playing two games in 19 1/2 hours is crazy.

I have watched in person the last two Tufts v Lynchburg games and the last two Tufts v Hamilton games, as well as the Tufts v Lynchburg game in VA on stream, and I like Hamilton's chances. We will see I guess.

BallHunt wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 pm Anybody think Hamilton beats Lynchburg at the Mustang Classic? The Colonials seem on a gradual improvement track.

Laxguy456 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:14 am

choochooCharlie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:48 am Ok. This argument surmised in one paragraph

So someone hates the NESCAC, and points out Middlebury’s small OOC. Someone who loves the NESCAC retorts that the small OOC is conference mandated, and a high percentage of that small OOC are ranked opponents. NESCAC hater then responds by pointing out that the ranked OOC still is less in number than opposing top teams’ ranked OOC, and rarely has different opponents. NESCAC lover responds by citing that the committee will still take 4 NESCACs despite that.

You both stated undeniable facts. End of “argument.”
(I want you both on my debate team)

As this is the NESCAC thread, I will focus on the strength of schedule for the NESCAC teams. I used the Inside Lacrosse (IL) pre-season top 20 for the analysis.

Based on the IL rankings the Conference with most representation is:
Conference Number
NESCAC 4
Liberty League 4
Centennial 3
Coastal 2
ODAC 2
MAC Commonwealth 1
MAC Freedom 1
NCAC 1
Atlantic East 1
NEWMAC 1

The NESCAC team that has the toughest schedule for the year is:
1. Tufts – they play 8 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 5 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #3 CNU and #4 RIT.
2. Williams - they play 8 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 4 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #3 CNU and #12 Union
3. Amherst – they play 7 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 4 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #9 Gettysburg and #10 Lynchburg
4. Middlebury - they play 7 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 4 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #12 Union and #15 RPI
5. Hamilton – they play 5 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 1 OOC opponents. Top OOC team: #10 Lynchburg
6. Wesleyan - they play 5 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 1 OOC opponent. Top OOC team: #17 Stevens
7. Conn, Trinity, Colby, and Bates - they play 4 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20.
8. Bowdoin - they play 4 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 1 OOC opponent. Top OOC team: #20 Babson

Can Opener wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:54 pm Strongest OOC Schedules Among Top 20 (In Order)
York – Salisbury (#1), RIT (#4), Dickinson (#5), W&L (#7), Gettysburg (#9), RPI (#15), SLU (#16), Denison (#18)
…
The only other observation from going through these schedules is that York seems out of place in the MAC. Shouldn't they be in the Centennial with 5 or 6 other top notch lacrosse programs from Pennsylvania? I'm sure there's some history explaining this.

DeepPocket wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:09 pm

Can Opener wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:54 pm Strongest OOC Schedules Among Top 20 (In Order)
York – Salisbury (#1), RIT (#4), Dickinson (#5), W&L (#7), Gettysburg (#9), RPI (#15), SLU (#16), Denison (#18)
…
The only other observation from going through these schedules is that York seems out of place in the MAC. Shouldn't they be in the Centennial with 5 or 6 other top notch lacrosse programs from Pennsylvania? I'm sure there's some history explaining this.

York was a founding member of the CAC. Over the course of time, the CAC contained Salisbury, Stevenson, Catholic, SCMC, MaryWash and even Goucher in their heyday to name a few (what might have been had they all stayed).

The CAC’s looming demise caused many teams to preemptively look for new digs, York included. Obviously many factors come into play, with lacrosse largely not even registering. They are well positioned geographically, academically, and financially for quite a few conferences. The MAC is a conference that fits them well in quite literally all aspects, less so maybe for lacrosse.

The reality is, this is one of the few years in some time that Stevenson is unranked coming into the season, and I suspect they will land in the top 20 at some point in 2024. Couple that there are typically 2 nationally ranked programs, in York and Stevenson, with the relative elevation of Eastern and Messiah, and the Commonwealth should stack up rather well when compared to non-NESCAC/Liberty/Centennial conferences going forward.

Can Opener wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:54 pm

Laxguy456 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:14 am

choochooCharlie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:48 am Ok. This argument surmised in one paragraph

So someone hates the NESCAC, and points out Middlebury’s small OOC. Someone who loves the NESCAC retorts that the small OOC is conference mandated, and a high percentage of that small OOC are ranked opponents. NESCAC hater then responds by pointing out that the ranked OOC still is less in number than opposing top teams’ ranked OOC, and rarely has different opponents. NESCAC lover responds by citing that the committee will still take 4 NESCACs despite that.

You both stated undeniable facts. End of “argument.”
(I want you both on my debate team)

As this is the NESCAC thread, I will focus on the strength of schedule for the NESCAC teams. I used the Inside Lacrosse (IL) pre-season top 20 for the analysis.

Based on the IL rankings the Conference with most representation is:
Conference Number
NESCAC 4
Liberty League 4
Centennial 3
Coastal 2
ODAC 2
MAC Commonwealth 1
MAC Freedom 1
NCAC 1
Atlantic East 1
NEWMAC 1

The NESCAC team that has the toughest schedule for the year is:
1. Tufts – they play 8 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 5 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #3 CNU and #4 RIT.
2. Williams - they play 8 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 4 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #3 CNU and #12 Union
3. Amherst – they play 7 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 4 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #9 Gettysburg and #10 Lynchburg
4. Middlebury - they play 7 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 4 OOC opponents. Top OOC team’s: #12 Union and #15 RPI
5. Hamilton – they play 5 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 1 OOC opponents. Top OOC team: #10 Lynchburg
6. Wesleyan - they play 5 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 1 OOC opponent. Top OOC team: #17 Stevens
7. Conn, Trinity, Colby, and Bates - they play 4 of the top 20 teams. 4 other NESCAC teams in the top 20.
8. Bowdoin - they play 4 of the top 20 teams. 3 other NESCAC teams in the top 20 and 1 OOC opponent. Top OOC team: #20 Babson

Thanks for doing the leg work on this. I had some free time on a rainy Friday afternoon and did a little research on OOC schedules. I only looked at teams in the top 20 in the IL preseason poll. Among these programs, only six schools play five or more top 20 OOC opponents – Tufts, CNU, W&L, Lynchburg, York and Denison. Beyond Tufts in the NESCAC, as noted above, Amherst and Middlebury each play four top 20 OOC programs, although only 2 of those 8 games are against top 10 teams. Given the late start for the NESCAC and the very competitive league games, I suppose many coaches aren't anxious to really ramp up the travel and challenge of tough OOC games. People like York, CNU and Denison, OTOH, don't have stout conference foes, so they need to boost their OOC SOS.

A couple of interesting things jumped out from the schedule.

Strongest OOC Schedules Among Top 20 (In Order)
York – Salisbury (#1), RIT (#4), Dickinson (#5), W&L (#7), Gettysburg (#9), RPI (#15), SLU (#16), Denison (#18)
Lynchburg – Salisbury (#1), CNU (#3), Gettysburg (#9), Amherst (#13), Denison (#18), Cabrini (#19)
W&L – CNU (#3), RIT (#4), Gettysburg (#9), York (#11), Denison (#18)
Denison – RIT (#4), W&L (#7), Gettysburg (#9), Lynchburg (#10), York (#11)
CNU – Tufts (#2), Dickinson (#5), W&L (#7), Lynchburg (#10), SLU (#16)
Tufts – CNU (#3), RIT (#4), Union (#12), Stevens (#17), Babson (#20)

Surprisingly Weak OOC Schedules Among Top 20
Bowdoin – Babson (#20)
Swarthmore – Amherst (#13)
Stevens – Tufts (#2), Dickinson (#5) (Quality over quantity, I suppose, but given their weak conference schedule, you would expect more.)

The only other observation from going through these schedules is that York seems out of place in the MAC. Shouldn't they be in the Centennial with 5 or 6 other top notch lacrosse programs from Pennsylvania? I'm sure there's some history explaining this.