Race in America - Riots Explode in Chicago

[jhu72]

Anyone else object to a question in yesterdays white house briefing

paraphrasing

"Is the President of the United States happy the north won the civil war?"

Take that clowns press pass away.

Yeah, that's not helping, is it?

... but it is damned amusing.

[MDlaxfan76]

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

There are factions involved in these occupations and riots who's only objective is anarchy. When you have self-avowed Marxists, you can be pretty certain their goal is not to build something better, but to tear down and destroy. They manipulate the situation and take advantage of those with good intentions.

And make no mistake, the right has their own people like this - white nationalists and conspiracy theorists, ... But they have been very small in numbers and had been marginalized (at least during my lifetime).

The kooks on both sides had been pretty marginalized, although the left has always struck me as more sympathetic to their nuttier extremes. That was at least until the media decided a race war would be good for ratings.

yeah, this was all media generated for their ratings.

come on, HooDat, a vast majority of Americans, all races, are supporting this reexamination of our policies and their impacts on social justice. It's just a hard minority that is not. But it's not a tiny minority.

Fortunately, more and more of those who have never really understood these issues, but who have good hearts, are recognizing that things really do need to change.

I do agree with you that there are some kooks on the hard left, particularly the anarchist types.

That is not what I said. You have twisted my point 180 degrees, in what comes across as a desperate need to either be offended or be able to claim some sort of morally higher ground....

I believe that the VAST majority of Americans black, white, red, yellow, brown, green(?) are NOT racist. Of course there is a lot of lingering damage from when there was rampant racism that was supported by our institutions and we need to find solutions that will repair that damage. Very few people are unsympathetic to the issues being raised through all this. I have yet to hear one person say - "no the cops are all good, kill as many black dudes as you want"... Granted there are people out there who are tone deaf around black lives versus all lives - but my sense is that it is function of their inability to see grey tones, the nuance is lost on them, they are as I said, tone-deaf.


What the media has inflamed is the violence and the destruction. They have gleefully provided a platform for violence and hate. The same way they gleefully provided a platform for Trumps run to the White House in 2016.

Well, you and I do appear disagree, but I'd be happy to find common ground on some of this.

I don't lay this at the feet of the media, I think that's an enormous cop out on what is and has been a very real, very large problem. Did it matter that the video of George Floyd being murdered by the police was actually available? And that there were platforms for it to be seen?

Sure.

But the anger and resentments long preceded, all that did was open the eyes of millions of whites who joined forces in the protests.

Are there anarchists and "self avowed Marxists"? Sure, no doubt about it, and that's an awful element. Some common ground. So, too, have there been some a-holes from Boogaloo etc trying to create more violence.

Where you and I also almost agree, thus some more common ground, is that most folks really aren't flagrant racists, indeed would very much like to believe they are not biased and bigoted toward any other group. Most folks have a good heart.

But that doesn't mean that most folks understand their own biases and bigotries, nor their complicity in the continuance of institutionalized racism. But more and more are being confronted with this reality in ways that they find quite uncomfortable, but ultimately very much to the good.

Indeed, the very large positive response to the protests, across racial lines, is why I think we have reason to be optimistic about this aspect of America truly improving, a lot, and quickly.

Now, if I've misunderstood your diatribe about the media, "What the media has inflamed is the violence and the destruction. They have gleefully provided a platform for violence and hate." then please correct me.

You make it sound like they made some sort of conscious decision, "until the media decided a race war would be good for ratings."

I don't buy it.
Unless you're just saying that the old media saw, "if it bleeds, it leads" is all that you're saying.

[jhu72]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

In your own home, did you care that Mayor Dinkins hired a top five terrorist group, the Nation of Islam, to run security for Baltimore projects.

… no where in the world is the Nation of Islam on a terrorist watch list.

[MDlaxfan76]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

In your own home, did you care that Mayor Dinkins hired a top five terrorist group, the Nation of Islam, to run security for Baltimore projects.

RRR, fatty, you are, as usual, trying to change the subject.

I don't recall the Nation of Islam ever being legitimately described as a "top 5 terrorist group", at least not by the US government (do you mean the Southern Poverty Law Center? they do track it as a hate group) nor Dinkins ever being Mayor of Baltimore (he was Mayor of NYC) but, no, I've never been in favor of the Nation of Islam being paid by our city. It's a complicated issue, and I do understand why they are sometimes in a position to effect some good, but I reject their anti-semitic garbage. We have many, many Muslims in our region, including African American Muslims, who reject those views and its association with Islam more generally (The Nation or at least many of their most prominent leaders over time have quite a lot of views that are inconsistent with most practicing Muslims).

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://ctc.usma.edu/evaluating-the-ter ... im-groups/

[HooDat]

I don't lay this at the feet of the media, I think that's an enormous cop out on what is and has been a very real, very large problem. Did it matter that the video of George Floyd being murdered by the police was actually available? And that there were platforms for it to be seen?

Sure.

But the anger and resentments long preceded, all that did was open the eyes of millions of whites who joined forces in the protests.

.....


Unless you're just saying that the old media saw, "if it bleeds, it leads".

The release of the footage of the cop murdering George Floyd is not what I am talking about. People need to see that in order to understand the reality of the situation. (as a side note, the other cops milling around doing nothing while Floyd is being killed is in some ways the most powerful part of those images).

The anger and resentment of course long preceded this particular murder. And again, I don't know of anyone who is/was against marches and protests trying to once again call attention to the issue.

That legitimate protest is very different than the looting and violence that was committed under the "cover" of those peaceful protests. I'll make it simple:

- protests and marches = good
- looting and violence= bad

the bad guys co-opted the good guys protest.

On the media side, yes of course I am talking about the media's insatiable appetite for violence and conflict ("if it bleeds it leads" as you will). That mentality gives a platform to hate. The hate I am talking about is the looters and gangs of people beating people in the streets and in front of their shops. The hate I am talking about is also the white supremacists who are so freaking stupid, they think media attention of their idiocy means people support them. We are still learning how to correctly use the internet. One of the bad things it does is let people who wish to spew hate more easily find like minded audiences and reinforce their twisted viewpoints. Prior to the internet, those people were stuck in their grandmother's basement with no audience other than some other creep who they would meet to smoke cigarettes and drink cheap beer behind the convenience store down the street. Now they find 50 other like-minded people and think they have a movement. And the media is only too happy to pump up that delusion because the story will get eyeballs.

[Peter Brown]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

What does the Board think MD's take on Clive Bundy's takeover of an outpost on some grazing land in Oregon? Do you think MD advocated for 'patience'?

Hackish virtue signalling.

[cradleandshoot]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

What does the Board think MD's take on Clive Bundy's takeover of an outpost on some grazing land in Oregon? Do you think MD advocated for 'patience'?

Hackish virtue signalling.

What about those branch davidians there in Waco?The feds had all kinds of patience with them. They were patient up until the point they burned the compound to the ground. I guess they ran out of patience

[MDlaxfan76]

I don't lay this at the feet of the media, I think that's an enormous cop out on what is and has been a very real, very large problem. Did it matter that the video of George Floyd being murdered by the police was actually available? And that there were platforms for it to be seen?

Sure.

But the anger and resentments long preceded, all that did was open the eyes of millions of whites who joined forces in the protests.

.....


Unless you're just saying that the old media saw, "if it bleeds, it leads".

The release of the footage of the cop murdering George Floyd is not what I am talking about. People need to see that in order to understand the reality of the situation. (as a side note, the other cops milling around doing nothing while Floyd is being killed is in some ways the most powerful part of those images).

The anger and resentment of course long preceded this particular murder. And again, I don't know of anyone who is/was against marches and protests trying to once again call attention to the issue.

That legitimate protest is very different than the looting and violence that was committed under the "cover" of those peaceful protests. I'll make it simple:

- protests and marches = good
- looting and violence= bad

the bad guys co-opted the good guys protest.

On the media side, yes of course I am talking about the media's insatiable appetite for violence and conflict ("if it bleeds it leads" as you will). That mentality gives a platform to hate. The hate I am talking about is the looters and gangs of people beating people in the streets and in front of their shops. The hate I am talking about is also the white supremacists who are so freaking stupid, they think media attention of their idiocy means people support them. We are still learning how to correctly use the internet. One of the bad things it does is let people who wish to spew hate more easily find like minded audiences and reinforce their twisted viewpoints. Prior to the internet, those people were stuck in their grandmother's basement with no audience other than some other creep who they would meet to smoke cigarettes and drink cheap beer behind the convenience store down the street. Now they find 50 other like-minded people and think they have a movement. And the media is only too happy to pump up that delusion because the story will get eyeballs.

We agree on pretty much most all of that.

Maybe where we may still disagree a bit is that I didn't see the media, at least not the mainstream such, excessively covering violence and destruction by protesters...maybe over on Fox they were doing so, but if anything the criticism of the MSM was that they were covering the peaceful protestors almost too kindly, whereas the critics wanted them to show the violent folks more.

That doesn't mean they didn't cover the violence, especially the standoffs with police, as well as footage of looters, and burning buildings, etc, but it didn't seem to me that they were doing so more than what we needed to know, that looters taking advantage of the chaos and violent people were doing so as well.

I'm also not so sure "bad guys co-opted the good guys protest" sums it up 100% accurately, though definitely there many nights when that became more true than not. But the sheer scale of the mostly peaceful, if angry, protests were absolutely massive...and are continuing.

But we certainly agree about the Wild West of internet hate-mongering.

[MDlaxfan76]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

What does the Board think MD's take on Clive Bundy's takeover of an outpost on some grazing land in Oregon? Do you think MD advocated for 'patience'?

Hackish virtue signalling.

Seriously? You and cradle think these guys with their guns and militia training and right wing, hate the government, destroy the government, 'sovereign citizen' stuff is equivalent to BLM?

Cliven (not Clive) Bundy's 'sovereign citizen' folks are named as a terrorist threat in the US. Wonderful bunch those Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia, the Praetorian Guard types...

But yeah, the 'autopsy' of those earlier actions appears to be that patience might have been better than what ensued. We can't tell, for sure, but certainly these whack jobs took a beating that looks awful in retrospect. By contrast, the Bundy incidents ended up not having things blow up as the federal government backed off and de-escalated for that time period.

I don't recall any discussions of those events on LP (was there an LP in WACO and Ruby Ridge days???) but that's my sense. Using government force on American citizens tends to have unfortunate consequences, even when it's clear that they're some really despicable a-holes involved.

Where this tends to get tough to make the call is when the a-holes are armed to the teeth and not merely defiant of the law, but are actively threatening the lives of law enforcement.

Even then, we see the problems of escalating to full force.

[Typical Lax Dad]

[youthathletics]

Ask David Thibodeau if the FBI ever screws up.

[wgdsr]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

so we're at 4 shootings, 2 killings, another at least in critical. in addition to alleged rape, robbery, assault. we'll leave the whole occupying and destroying property bit out...
you're good to date with the patience and that the violence is at least creating some dialogue...

my question or hypothetical is:
what's the over/under on body count before any switching gears might correctly be in the offing?
i'd offer 50 is way too high but i don't want to speak for you. single digits somewhere? higher? it depends?

[Cooter]

Black lives Matter attacking random motorists.

https://twitter.com/McguireScotty/statu ... 70020?s=20

Democrats proud yet?

If you fear for your life and a reasonable person fears for his life, you have the right to use deadly force. It's just a matter of time a person with a firearm is not going to like their vehicle being kicked for no reason, and the Fanlax Democrats will explode in righteous anger that one of their "protesters" was murdered.

This is pretty bad. That guy breaking in the window needs some jail time, and the girl kicking the car needs some anger management therapy (hopefully she won't ever have kids.) Terrorizing these motorists is just nasty.

Sort of makes one think back to the C-ville riot, where the main stream press and other democrats were blaming the white supremists, but Trump was saying it was both sides. Now there are not any white supremists around and these blm/antifa people are still rioting. Trump appears to have been on the right track - although it is starting to look like more of fault in the C-ville riot probably lies with these blm/antifa people.

Was it fun?

In your first video, that one guy was just acting alone with his car.

I don't see what you point is with the second video - just bunch of people protesting immigration.

Dude, Cooter, I know your ancestors supported the Confederacy and slavery, but you should still be able to recognize that the people in the second video are Neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

Seriously, man ....

DocBarrister

I do get the feeling that in the 2nd video that the people are white supremacists, but they are protesting non-violently.

My Mom was from the North and my Dad was from Norfolk.
None of my Dad's direct ancestors served in the Confederacy, and 2 of my Dad's great grandfathers were noted Unionists and a 3rd great grandfather was from the North.
The wife of my Dad's great grandfather from the North, was from N.C. and she had 2 brothers who served as privates in the Confederacy.
So in the end, I can say that 6 of my 8 great, great grandfather's did not support the Confederacy, a 7th probably didn't. The 8th, I do not know about, although he was a Virginian. My ancestors did not generally support the Confederacy.

I do not know what any of my Southern great, great grandfather's views were on slavery. Although being reasonably well-off, I believe they all owned slaves. My Dad's great grandfather from the North, had a clause in his will to release all his slaves on his death.


I would point out to you, that the Union captured Norfolk in May of 1862.

[MDlaxfan76]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

so we're at 4 shootings, 2 killings, another at least in critical. in addition to alleged rape, robbery, assault. we'll leave the whole occupying and destroying property bit out...
you're good to date with the patience and that the violence is at least creating some dialogue...

my question or hypothetical is:
what's the over/under on body count before any switching gears might correctly be in the offing?
i'd offer 50 is way too high but i don't want to speak for you. single digits somewhere? higher? it depends?

Good hypothetical.

I quite agree that anarchy can be really ugly, but is there anyone being held captive?
Can people leave freely?

I think it may well be better to have folks get fed up with ' non-self-government' or whatever it is they think they're doing. Hopefully that comes soon.

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

whoopsie

Should we start a poll for a new name for the city



seattle.jpg

what color were the enslaved?

it matters

[ChairmanOfTheBoard]

Some people are losing the plot though. A 20yr friend of my wifes who I’ve gotten to know a bit the past decade and even made numerous introductions that he fumbled including Bank CFOs and folks like partners at Nelson Mullins and King and Spalding, black guy, grew up affluent in Cobb Co, mostly hung out with whites people and never lifted a finger for racial causes completely went off on me at my suggestion that the Dems could lose the presidential election if they pull Abrams or Bottoms as VP, both of whom are unqualified. This cat, who went to UGA, then Duke law but somehow hasn’t done a thing just had to fold his personal firm after 8-9yrs of doing nothing started going off on how I was a white supremecist, told my wife off, because I was critical of these two ladies lack of accomplishment when what I was saying is if you have to pick a black woman at least go Harris or Val Demmings who have some kind of National experience or they’ll lose potential moderate Republican swing voters in states like Ga. For me I’m considering voting R and president for the first time in my life or sitting it out. My vote might count.

now this is an interesting post. (i actually don't even blame your friend as much as i would blame the media for stirring it up- see hoodat's post)

because it's what i've been saying is happening- the more people push- on both sides- the more you might be drawing them away.

were just too entrenched. the days of swaying people with reason are long over.

[cradleandshoot]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

What does the Board think MD's take on Clive Bundy's takeover of an outpost on some grazing land in Oregon? Do you think MD advocated for 'patience'?

Hackish virtue signalling.

Seriously? You and cradle think these guys with their guns and militia training and right wing, hate the government, destroy the government, 'sovereign citizen' stuff is equivalent to BLM?

Cliven (not Clive) Bundy's 'sovereign citizen' folks are named as a terrorist threat in the US. Wonderful bunch those Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia, the Praetorian Guard types...

But yeah, the 'autopsy' of those earlier actions appears to be that patience might have been better than what ensued. We can't tell, for sure, but certainly these whack jobs took a beating that looks awful in retrospect. By contrast, the Bundy incidents ended up not having things blow up as the federal government backed off and de-escalated for that time period.

I don't recall any discussions of those events on LP (was there an LP in WACO and Ruby Ridge days???) but that's my sense. Using government force on American citizens tends to have unfortunate consequences, even when it's clear that they're some really despicable a-holes involved.

Where this tends to get tough to make the call is when the a-holes are armed to the teeth and not merely defiant of the law, but are actively threatening the lives of law enforcement.

Even then, we see the problems of escalating to full force.

"Seriously? You and cradle think these guys with their guns and militia training and right wing, hate the government, destroy the government, 'sovereign citizen' stuff is equivalent to BLM?"

Honestly MD I am not certain what BLM actually stands for. I made the mistake of actually going by the title BLACK LIVES MATTER. Silly me was under the impression it meant what it said. I was informed that BLM only when the black life is taken by a police officer. All those other black lives really are not all that important to BLM in the big scheme of things. What exactly is militia training in your mind? IMO it is a bunch of redneck hillbillies running around the woods shooting their rifles off. They lack discipline, basic infantry skills and have no ability to co-ordinate among themselves. Some of those tailgaters in the BLM have the co-ordination thing down to a science. They can have 5000 people at a protest where right on cue 500 people branch off in different directions and start picking stores down to the bone. They even had folks following them with vehicles to unload the loot and move on to the next store. These people were not BLM members. These were people who knew how to take advantage of a chaotic situation and rob, loot and burn to their hearts content. No need to worry about the police. They were all tied up with the protesters. You seem to have all the respect and fear in the world for these militia people. You have (apparently) no understanding at the skill and precision these looters used in their crime spree. How many of those militia folks MD were out there looting, burning and creating as much mayhem and chaos as possible? Just axin old sod.

[cradleandshoot]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

so we're at 4 shootings, 2 killings, another at least in critical. in addition to alleged rape, robbery, assault. we'll leave the whole occupying and destroying property bit out...
you're good to date with the patience and that the violence is at least creating some dialogue...

my question or hypothetical is:
what's the over/under on body count before any switching gears might correctly be in the offing?
i'd offer 50 is way too high but i don't want to speak for you. single digits somewhere? higher? it depends?

Good hypothetical.

I quite agree that anarchy can be really ugly, but is there anyone being held captive?
Can people leave freely?

I think it may well be better to have folks get fed up with ' non-self-government' or whatever it is they think they're doing. Hopefully that comes soon.

"Can people leave freely?"

Yes but they are restricting who they will allow in. Police officers are unwelcome, you okay with that?

[MDlaxfan76]

White Antifa terrorists shoot and murder two underage black males in Seattle’s CHOP.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... oting.html

How is this not the lead story on every network right now?

That’s right, the media does anything to bend over backwards for Democrats.

Had the shooters been police, the media and certain Fanlax Democrats couldn’t shut up.

I saw this on CNN.

However, nowhere in the article you posted is the shooter or shooters described as "White Antifa terrorists" or remotely close to such. Instead, it sounds like the boys may have been stealing a car? Not even clear who started the shooting, much less the race of the participants other than the boys.

The police chief has a challenge on her hands, sounds like they're handling well so far. Mayor apparently had a good face to face with the protestors.

Yeah, the situation there in Seattle is nothing short of Shangri La. Peace and love interspersed with a little gunfire here and there.

Of course.
People will behave badly, given time.

Even those communes of the hippy era had their breakdowns (see Manson) and this is no commune!

It's an interesting little microcosm that may actually help folks understand why we do need representative government and police etc. The issue is whether the government and the police truly do represent the best interests and desires of the people they govern and 'protect'. Unfortunately, government and police have way too often failed to do so. So we have protests demanding change that was not accomplished through regular order.

So anybody with a legitimate grievance should be allowed to take matters into their own hands and act independently of any local government? That sounds more like anarchy to me than anything else. I guess so long as you have good intentions your methods are then justified? Why don't we let people become vigilantes next? Their intentions are good, give payback to all those bad folks. You know as well as I do the courts can't get it right. Is there a line to be drawn here MD? I'm just asking.

It's a great question, cradle, and please don't think that my belief is all is cool with what's happening in Seattle at this time. But a use of force would be the opposite of what is called for, indeed would be most effective in the long haul, in this very moment of protest against the use of brutal force by the police.

Sometimes a nail calls for a hammer, sometimes you need the screw driver. It's important to know the difference.

So what does the leadership of Seattle do if these folks refuse to leave? The status quo is not acceptable. There has to be an ultimatum given to these people real soon. It is real simple... leave on your own or you will leave on terms you will not like. There is no group of people that have the right to take over private property and claim it for themselves. These people are breaking the law. There should be no negotiating. Leave or you all will be forcefully removed and charged with any and all appropriate crimes.

I'm sure the Mayor is frustrated. More than you.
But I disagree that such an ultimatum would do more than harden opposition.

IMO, Patience is a virtue in such situations.

These protests are sweeping the world, and we're far from done with them here in the US.
Force just ain't the answer.

But time will tell if the Mayor has charted the best course.
This violence inside seems to have created at least some dialogue.

What does the Board think MD's take on Clive Bundy's takeover of an outpost on some grazing land in Oregon? Do you think MD advocated for 'patience'?

Hackish virtue signalling.

Seriously? You and cradle think these guys with their guns and militia training and right wing, hate the government, destroy the government, 'sovereign citizen' stuff is equivalent to BLM?

Cliven (not Clive) Bundy's 'sovereign citizen' folks are named as a terrorist threat in the US. Wonderful bunch those Oath Keepers, the White Mountain Militia, the Praetorian Guard types...

But yeah, the 'autopsy' of those earlier actions appears to be that patience might have been better than what ensued. We can't tell, for sure, but certainly these whack jobs took a beating that looks awful in retrospect. By contrast, the Bundy incidents ended up not having things blow up as the federal government backed off and de-escalated for that time period.

I don't recall any discussions of those events on LP (was there an LP in WACO and Ruby Ridge days???) but that's my sense. Using government force on American citizens tends to have unfortunate consequences, even when it's clear that they're some really despicable a-holes involved.

Where this tends to get tough to make the call is when the a-holes are armed to the teeth and not merely defiant of the law, but are actively threatening the lives of law enforcement.

Even then, we see the problems of escalating to full force.

"Seriously? You and cradle think these guys with their guns and militia training and right wing, hate the government, destroy the government, 'sovereign citizen' stuff is equivalent to BLM?"

Honestly MD I am not certain what BLM actually stands for. I made the mistake of actually going by the title BLACK LIVES MATTER. Silly me was under the impression it meant what it said. I was informed that BLM only when the black life is taken by a police officer. All those other black lives really are not all that important to BLM in the big scheme of things. What exactly is militia training in your mind? IMO it is a bunch of redneck hillbillies running around the woods shooting their rifles off. They lack discipline, basic infantry skills and have no ability to co-ordinate among themselves. Some of those tailgaters in the BLM have the co-ordination thing down to a science. They can have 5000 people at a protest where right on cue 500 people branch off in different directions and start picking stores down to the bone. They even had folks following them with vehicles to unload the loot and move on to the next store. These people were not BLM members. These were people who knew how to take advantage of a chaotic situation and rob, loot and burn to their hearts content. No need to worry about the police. They were all tied up with the protesters. You seem to have all the respect and fear in the world for these militia people. You have (apparently) no understanding at the skill and precision these looters used in their crime spree. How many of those militia folks MD were out there looting, burning and creating as much mayhem and chaos as possible? Just axin old sod.

The boogaloo boys were out in force and there's some overlap with the militia folks, but I certainly wouldn't suggest they were preeminent in the looting. They and the anarchist left were responsible for much of the violence, but not so much the looting from everything I could glean from my 'arm chair'.

I commented in real time that some of the looting looked quite coordinated. And, you're right, that's not BLM. Looked like criminal gang work. Other looting and burning was far more spontaneous, an expression of rage. Watch Spike Lee's exploration of this phenomenon from way back in 1989, Do the Right Thing.

BLM definitely does not say that other loss of life doesn't matter, whether black or otherwise. But the movement is indeed focused on police brutality and systemic racism.

Where there IS some overlap, is that there's a solid belief that the systemic racism underlies the criminal drug trade and its resultant violence, the incarceration of blacks, the lack of public health in all aspects (from environmental, to nutrition/fresh food access, to service access), etc and that a re-direction of resources to reversing these disparities built up over generations of redlining and discrimination would result in far less crime and need for policing.

We can debate that argument, but characterizing BLM as not caring about the loss of life other than at the hands of the police is simply a falsehood perpetuated by the ignorant and hard right, white supremacist and their partisan political proxies.

And yeah, there's a sound reason why the FBI is so worried about the militias and their anti-government, violent, typically (not always) racist ideology.