Sensible Gun Safety

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/09/us/orlan ... gfooterold

The police killed him with a gun…good outcome. We need to see more of this.

[SCLaxAttack]

Someone please do a fact check on Kristi Noem's comments about her two year old granddaughter having a shotgun and rifle. Those comments must only be a story to get the support of the NRA crowd, right? And just for kicks, listen another 3 or 4 minutes in to hear the story of how her father played a trick on her when she was 10 so she'd think she was all by herself in the woods in the dark trying to make her way back to their campsite. A ball of laughs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8sqnXnCjDw

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/woman ... index.html

They should have been carrying!

[youthathletics]

72 should have said right wing, self-annointed "Christians" rather than simply Christians.

His point was valid. So was Kismet's.

I read youth's post as a sneer; feel free to correct that impression if you'd like, youth.

If you are wondering whether gender identity struggles had anything to do with the shooter's motivation, so am I. We likely will learn more from the manifesto left by the shooter. Meanwhile, I think we can wait a heartbeat.

What we do know, apparently, is that the shooter had a bunch of high capacity rapid fire weapons, "legally obtained", and used them to kill children and adults at a "Christian" school they had attended as a child. Fortunately, the killing was stopped by the police before the massacre was even worse.

No sneer at all. This IS the age we live in, when I read it was reported that it was a female my spidey senses went up, as I noted.

I am also looking forward to learning more, but will guess that we will not learn anything IF it goes against the grain of the LGBTQ+ community...it most certainly will go against Christianity, they are always a target, and know this.

Wonder if they will announce if the shooter was on any meds, short and/or long term....also a tox report should be mandatory information shared to the public for all criminals post autopsy.

Still no manifesto released....last I heard 'they claim' there was nothing in there.....well, then, release it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/19/us/dadev ... index.html

Not enough people carrying at the party.

[Seacoaster(1)]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180968013/

It's October 26, 1881, in Tombstone, and Arizona is not yet a state. The O.K. Corral is quiet, and it's had an unremarkable existence for the two years it's been standing—although it's about to become famous.

Marshall Virgil Earp, having deputized his brothers Wyatt and Morgan and his pal Doc Holliday, is having a gun control problem. Long-running tensions between the lawmen and a faction of cowboys – represented this morning by Billy Claiborne, the Clanton brothers, and the McLaury brothers – will come to a head over Tombstone's gun law.

The laws of Tombstone at the time required visitors, upon entering town to disarm, either at a hotel or a lawman's office. (Residents of many famed cattle towns, such as Dodge City, Abilene, and Deadwood, had similar restrictions.) But these cowboys had no intention of doing so as they strolled around town with Colt revolvers and Winchester rifles in plain sight. Earlier on this fateful day, Virgil had disarmed one cowboy forcefully, while Wyatt confronted another and county sheriff Johnny Behan failed to persuade two more to turn in their firearms.

When the Earps and Holliday met the cowboys on Fremont Street in the early afternoon, Virgil once again called on them to disarm. Nobody knows who fired first. Ike Clanton and Billy Claiborne, who were unarmed, ran at the start of the fight and survived. Billy Clanton and the McLaury brothers, who stood and fought, were killed by the lawmen, all of whom walked away.

The “Old West” conjures up all sorts of imagery, but broadly, the term is used to evoke life among the crusty prospectors, threadbare gold panners, madams of brothels, and six-shooter-packing cowboys in small frontier towns – such as Tombstone, Deadwood, Dodge City, or Abilene, to name a few. One other thing these cities had in common: strict gun control laws.

"Tombstone had much more restrictive laws on carrying guns in public in the 1880s than it has today,” says Adam Winkler, a professor and specialist in American constitutional law at UCLA School of Law. “Today, you're allowed to carry a gun without a license or permit on Tombstone streets. Back in the 1880s, you weren't.” Same goes for most of the New West, to varying degrees, in the once-rowdy frontier towns of Nevada, Kansas, Montana, and South Dakota.

Dodge City, Kansas, formed a municipal government in 1878. According to Stephen Aron, a professor of history at UCLA, the first law passed was one prohibiting the carry of guns in town, likely by civic leaders and influential merchants who wanted people to move there, invest their time and resources, and bring their families. Cultivating a reputation of peace and stability was necessary, even in boisterous towns, if it were to become anything more transient than a one-industry boom town.

Laws regulating ownership and carry of firearms, apart from the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, were passed at a local level rather than by Congress. “Gun control laws were adopted pretty quickly in these places,” says Winkler. “Most were adopted by municipal governments exercising self-control and self-determination.” Carrying any kind of weapon, guns or knives, was not allowed other than outside town borders and inside the home. When visitors left their weapons with a law officer upon entering town, they'd receive a token, like a coat check, which they'd exchange for their guns when leaving town.

The practice was started in Southern states, which were among the first to enact laws against concealed carry of guns and knives, in the early 1800s. While a few citizens challenged the bans in court, most lost. Winkler, in his book Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America, points to an 1840 Alabama court that, in upholding its state ban, ruled it was a state's right to regulate where and how a citizen could carry, and that the state constitution's allowance of personal firearms “is not to bear arms upon all occasions and in all places.”

Louisiana, too, upheld an early ban on concealed carry firearms. When a Kentucky court reversed its ban, the state constitution was amended to specify the Kentucky general assembly was within its rights to, in the future, regulate or prohibit concealed carry.

Still, Winkler says, it was an affirmation that regulation was compatible with the Second Amendment. The federal government of the 1800s largely stayed out of gun-law court battles.

“People were allowed to own guns, and everyone did own guns [in the West], for the most part,” says Winkler. “Having a firearm to protect yourself in the lawless wilderness from wild animals, hostile native tribes, and outlaws was a wise idea. But when you came into town, you had to either check your guns if you were a visitor or keep your guns at home if you were a resident.”

Published in 1903, Andy Adams’s Log of a Cowboy, a “slightly fictionalized” account of the author’s life on the cattle trails of the 1880s, was a refutation against the myth-making dime store novels of the day. The book, which included stories about lawless cowboys visiting Dodge City firing into the air to shoot out lights, has been called the most realistic written account of cowboy life and is still in print today.

Adams wrote of what happened to the few who wouldn't comply with frontier gun law:

“The buffalo hunters and range men have protested against the iron rule of Dodge's peace officers, and nearly every protest has cost human life. … Most cowboys think it's an infringement on their rights to give up shooting in town, and if it is, it stands, for your six-shooters are no match for Winchesters and buckshot; and Dodge's officers are as game a set of men as ever faced danger.”

Frontier towns with and without gun legislation were violent places, more violent than family-friendly farming communities and Eastern cities of the time, but those without restrictions tended to have worse violence. “I've never seen any rhetoric from that time period saying that the only thing that's going to reduce violence is more people with guns,” says Winkler. “It seems to be much more of a 20th-century attitude than one associated with the Wild West.”

Aron agrees that these debates rarely went on, and if they did, there's scant evidence of it today.

Crime records in the Old West are sketchy, and even where they exist the modern FBI yardstick of measuring homicides rates – the number of homicides per 100,000 residents – can exaggerate statistics in Old Western towns with small populations; even one or two more murders a year would drastically swing a town's homicide rate.

Historian Robert Dykstra focused on established cattle towns, recording homicides after a full season of cattle shipments had already passed and by which time they'd have typically passed firearm law. He found a combined 45 murders from 1870-1885 in Kansas' five largest cattle towns by the 1880 census: Wichita (population: 4,911), Abilene (2,360) Caldwell (1,005), Ellsworth (929), and Dodge City (996).

Averaged out, there were 0.6 murders per town, per year. The worst years were Ellsworth, 1873, and Dodge City, 1876, with five killings each; because of their small populations, their FBI homicide rates would be high. Another historian, Rick Shenkman, found Tombstone's (1880 pop: 3,423) most violent year was 1881, in which also only five people were killed; three were the cowboys shot by Earp's men at the OK Corral.

As Dykstra wrote, frontier towns by and large prohibited the “carrying of dangerous weapons of any type, concealed or otherwise, by persons other than law enforcement officers.” Most established towns that restricted weapons had few, if any, killings in a given year.

The settlements that came closest to unchecked carry were the railroad and mining boom towns that tended to lack effective law enforcement, a functioning judicial system, and firearm law, says Aron, and it reflected in higher levels of violence. Like Bodie, California, which was well-known during the 1870s and 1880s for vigilantism and street violence.

“The smoke of battle almost never clears away completely in Bodie,” wrote a young Mark Twain on assignment for the Virginia City Territorial Enterprise. Historian Roger McGrath found that from 1877 to 1882 there were 31 homicides in Bodie which, according to the 1880 census, had only 2,712 residents. As the contemporary paper Sacramento Union called it a “shooter's town,” Bodie by 1880 had acquired a national infamy. Even as far as New York, a dangerous man was euphemistically called “a bad man from Bodie.”

The one-man law seen of TV and film Westerns is how we remember the West today. It was a time and place where rugged individualism reigned and the only law in the West that mattered was the law on your hip – a gun. Most “cowboy” films had nothing to do with driving cattle. John Wayne grew his brand as a horseback vigilante in decades' worth of Westerns, from his first leading role in 1930's The Big Trail to 1971's Big Jake, in which the law fails and Wayne's everyman is the only justice.

But as the classic The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance tells us, “This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”

As the West developed, towns pushed this mythos of the West as their founding ideology. Lax gun laws were just a part of an individualistic streak that manifested itself with the explosion in popularity of concealed carry licenses and the broader acceptance of openly carrying firearms (open-carry laws) that require no permit.

“These Wild West towns, as they developed and became more civilized and larger, there was an effort to promote their Wild West heritage very aggressively, and that became the identity of the town,” says Winkler, “but that identity was based on a false understanding of what the past was like, and wasn't a real assessment of what places like Tombstone were like in the 1880s.”

So the orthodox positions in America's ongoing gun debate oscillate between “Any gun law is a retreat away from the lack of government interference that made this country great” and “If we don't regulate firearms, we'll end up like the Wild West,” robbing both sides of a historical bedrock of how and why gun law developed as America expanded Westward."

[njbill]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Yet more historical evidence that Scalia had his head up his ass when he authored the Heller opinion. Even the citizens of the "lawless" Wild West understood that gun laws should be set by local authorities.

I tend to doubt I will live to see Heller overruled, but I believe it will be in time. It's a legislative issue, for Congress or state legislatures to set the rules. People in this country knew and understood that up until about 2008. It's been a rough decade+ for rationality, common sense, as well as democracy in this country.

[NattyBohChamps04]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

[jhu72]

^^ real good article. A reminder of our history and the myth of more guns make us safer. (Seacoster article above).

[jhu72]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

.. another old white guy shoots and kills a girl in a car who is mistakenly driving up his driveway (boyfriend driving). He feared for his life. The car was driving off his property at the time he shot her.

[Seacoaster(1)]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Yet more historical evidence that Scalia had his head up his ass when he authored the Heller opinion. Even the citizens of the "lawless" Wild West understood that gun laws should be set by local authorities.

I tend to doubt I will live to see Heller overruled, but I believe it will be in time. It's a legislative issue, for Congress or state legislatures to set the rules. People in this country knew and understood that up until about 2008. It's been a rough decade+ for rationality, common sense, as well as democracy in this country.

Sure. And more evidence that the "historical" test by Thomas in Bruen is complete fabricated bullsh*t, as Breyer more politely describes in his dissent. Breyer called Thomas's opinion "law office history," which one commentator described as "a degraded form of legal analysis that warps history to fit the desired ends favored by a judge or justice, is something scholars have criticized the courts—including the Supreme Court—for practicing with some frequency."

Maybe a pickup at the local library? https://www.amazon.com/Gunfight-Battle- ... nkCode=w50

[Typical Lax Dad]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

[jhu72]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

[runrussellrun]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

still nothing on the DAILY baltimoore killings of 12 year olds......

......just like the beating one white woman took, recently, in Chicago.

Doesn't make the NPR "control U" narrative test.

but, I am friends with rapists. boyz do stupid things, eh TLD.

so, why YOU still friends with a rapist ?

[Typical Lax Dad]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

Was leaving a high school lacrosse game the first time and was in front of a pizza place the second time…. It made me realize how dangerous it could be for young girls…. I never thought about using a gun…..but as they say….if you have a gun, you want to use a gun. Why carry it if you can’t use it.

[jhu72]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

.. another old white guy shoots and kills a girl in a car who is mistakenly driving up his driveway (boyfriend driving). He feared for his life. The car was driving off his property at the time he shot her.

... the killer was arrested and is sitting in jail without bail.

[Typical Lax Dad]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

.. another old white guy shoots and kills a girl in a car who is mistakenly driving up his driveway (boyfriend driving). He feared for his life. The car was driving off his property at the time he shot her.

... the killer was arrested and is sitting in jail without bail.

Anyone hear from Cradle?

[njbill]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

And the rest of the story is?

[cradleandshoot]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

And the rest of the story is?

Only Paul Harvey knows what " the rest of the story is"

[Typical Lax Dad]

2 Texas cheerleaders were shot after 1 tried to get in the wrong car after practice

No updates on the gender status of the shooter. YA, any info?

I have had two instances where young girls got into my back seat thinking I was an Uber driver…..

MAGA

And the rest of the story is?

That would be a guy I know that actually was an Uber driver!! He drove Marcia Clarke around for a day and tried his best to get her drunk so that he could $crew her!!!