Trump's Russian Collusion

[old salt]

Well for heaven's sake, no one actually has a copy of the report, old salt.

You don't need TDS to say "hey, I'd like to read the report before I draw any conclusions".

It doesn't matter what Mueller's report said. It won't convince the TDS zombies there's no kompromot.
He just couldn't find it. They just told us so. Trump's guilty, no matter what the report says.

Huh? "They just told us so" as in Barr tells us that Mueller says he didn't find any kompromat???

Where does Barr say that?

He said there's not enough evidence to indict Trump or others for conspiracy in the Russian election meddling. E.G. Americans didn't do the hacking, there wasn't sufficient evidence of other intentional conspiracy. We don't know (yet) what the 'bar' (pun intended) was for that determination, whether the substantial circumstantial evidence was simply not sufficient to indict... from the prosecutors' POV (much like the determination about HRC and her servers, lots of circumstantial, but not enough direct evidence of criminal intent to indict), given the stakes involved.

That sounds likely. Huge stakes in both situations, gotta have intent be slam dunk proven, in order to indict. And intent is super hard to prove.

But nowhere does Barr suggest Mueller didn't find kompromat.

Anything the Russians knew was a lie, yet Trump or others were lying about it and would be afraid to have come out, is, by definition, kompromat.

Being subject to kompromat is not an indictable offense.
But it sure as heck is an ethical one and it can very well be a very serious security risk.

Barr makes no such claim that Trump wasn't compromised by his lying.

Where's the kompromot, other than in your fevered imagination.
Show us proof, not conjecture.
If Mueller found evidence of kompromot, you think he'd clear Trump of collusion ?

[a fan]

That Benghazi thing went great. It took 4 years, but we finally got some answers.

That's the whole point---they investigated until YOU were happy.

You can't turn around and give libs grief for not being happy with a less than 2 year sealed investigation, where the entire investigation took place out of the public eye.

Picture Trump taking the stand the way they forced Hillary to take the stand. Hours of partisan hammering.

So sure...you LOVED that. So did FoxNation. We get it. Stop giving the libs grief over wanting a thorough investigation into Mr. liar-liar-pants-on-fire.

[jhu72]

Well for heaven's sake, no one actually has a copy of the report, old salt.

You don't need TDS to say "hey, I'd like to read the report before I draw any conclusions".

Republicans "investigating" Republicans.

It is really unfair to the sane, responsible republicans to keep using the term republican to describe the Trump supporters. The problem is the Trumpnista call themselves republicans and appear to make up 80-85% of the old GOP. Sane republicans need to pick a new name. I really don't see how folks like MDlaxfan76, Wahoomurf and others will ever reconcile with Orange Duce's supporters and enablers. The Trumpnista have already labeled them RINOs or worse - Democrats So out of respect for these sane, responsible few I propose that Brooklyn re-caption his cartoons to something like "Scumbags investigating His High Scumbaginess".

[old salt]

That Benghazi thing went great. It took 4 years, but we finally got some answers.

That's the whole point---they investigated until YOU were happy.

You can't turn around and give libs grief for not being happy with a less than 2 year sealed investigation, where the entire investigation took place out of the public eye.

Picture Trump taking the stand the way they forced Hillary to take the stand. Hours of partisan hammering.

So sure...you LOVED that. So did FoxNation. We get it. Stop giving the libs grief over wanting a thorough investigation into Mr. liar-liar-pants-on-fire.

They investigated until they finally beat the info out of the Obama Admin,
after all the delays, slip & falls, & stonewalling, with an assist from the IG's & FOIA requests.

I have no illusions that the (D)'s won't now try the same.

You predictably ignore the disparity in investigate resources & access the Mueller probe enjoyed, in contrast to the Benghazi Comm.

[old salt]

Screenplay rewrite -- feature Popadop wife prominently. Multiple beach scenes & prison visits.

[a fan]

You predictably ignore the disparity in investigate resources & access the Mueller probe enjoyed, in contrast to the Benghazi Comm.

And you predictably ignore the fact that we haven't heard one word from Mueller, or that Trump was never interviewed, let alone pulled apart by partisan Congressman looking to hammer Hill for 11 hours during an election cycle when she didn't break one single solitary law. "That's not illegal", so who cares, right?

So yeah, you're thrilled with both investigations. Shocker.

Mueller hasn't cleared anyone, btw. Barr did. That's not the same thing. Let's wait to see the report before we brag about how awesome Trump is, eh?

[Brooklyn]

... So out of respect for these sane, responsible few I propose that Brooklyn re-caption his cartoons to something like "Scumbags investigating His High Scumbaginess".

That merits a yuge thumbs up:

[MDlaxfan76]

Well for heaven's sake, no one actually has a copy of the report, old salt.

You don't need TDS to say "hey, I'd like to read the report before I draw any conclusions".

It doesn't matter what Mueller's report said. It won't convince the TDS zombies there's no kompromot.
He just couldn't find it. They just told us so. Trump's guilty, no matter what the report says.

Huh? "They just told us so" as in Barr tells us that Mueller says he didn't find any kompromat???

Where does Barr say that?

He said there's not enough evidence to indict Trump or others for conspiracy in the Russian election meddling. E.G. Americans didn't do the hacking, there wasn't sufficient evidence of other intentional conspiracy. We don't know (yet) what the 'bar' (pun intended) was for that determination, whether the substantial circumstantial evidence was simply not sufficient to indict... from the prosecutors' POV (much like the determination about HRC and her servers, lots of circumstantial, but not enough direct evidence of criminal intent to indict), given the stakes involved.

That sounds likely. Huge stakes in both situations, gotta have intent be slam dunk proven, in order to indict. And intent is super hard to prove.

But nowhere does Barr suggest Mueller didn't find kompromat.

Anything the Russians knew was a lie, yet Trump or others were lying about it and would be afraid to have come out, is, by definition, kompromat.

Being subject to kompromat is not an indictable offense.
But it sure as heck is an ethical one and it can very well be a very serious security risk.

Barr makes no such claim that Trump wasn't compromised by his lying.

Where's the kompromot, other than in your fevered imagination.
Show us proof, not conjecture.
If Mueller found evidence of kompromot, you think he'd clear Trump of collusion ?

Sure, as I said, being subject to kompromat is not an indictable offense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kompromat

Anything material that the Russians knew about Trump but which he wanted to remain hidden, makes him subject to kompromat, blackmail or other influence.

So, what was Trump lying about again and again. No business deals with Russians, no meetings by his campaign with Russians? The Moscow deal alone was hugely subject to kompromat, as it would have been highly material to the election, and may well prove to be going forward.

The willingness to meet with the Russians to receive dirt on Clinton certainly made Trump and those around him subject to kompromat (had they gone to the FBI right away, no sweat, but instead they chose to cover it up and lie about it, even deep into the Presidency.)

Those are just 2 really easy ones. We don't need to speculate about others as these are big ones all by themselves.

Just because there's no indictment of Trump for conspiracy does not mean that Trump is not guilty of 'collusion' (maybe yes, maybe no). The bar for provable criminal intent is much higher than 'did he know the Russians were meddling and did he report it, or, instead, did he lie about it and cause others to lie about it? If just to the American people, lying is not a prosecutable crime, so no indictment. But no indictment sure isn't enough to 'clear' or 'exonerate' Trump.

And it certainly doesn't mean that he wasn't (nor isn't) subject to kompromat.

But you're not this dense, Salty.

[MDlaxfan76]

Well for heaven's sake, no one actually has a copy of the report, old salt.

You don't need TDS to say "hey, I'd like to read the report before I draw any conclusions".

Republicans "investigating" Republicans.

It is really unfair to the sane, responsible republicans to keep using the term republican to describe the Trump supporters. The problem is the Trumpnista call themselves republicans and appear to make up 80-85% of the old GOP. Sane republicans need to pick a new name. I really don't see how folks like MDlaxfan76, Wahoomurf and others will ever reconcile with Orange Duce's supporters and enablers. The Trumpnista have already labeled them RINOs or worse - Democrats So out of respect for these sane, responsible few I propose that Brooklyn re-caption his cartoons to something like "Scumbags investigating His High Scumbaginess".

Thanks.
Sadly, the Trumpnista have taken over the GOP apparatus completely, lock, stock, and barrel.

Apparently that leaves all the Bushes including dad and mom, out of the party. McCain too. If alive, Reagan, Kemp, Ike, none of them would recognize this bunch of weasels, nativists, and racists as "Republicans".

But the takeover has happened. It's done. Locked in.

I'd previously hoped that some sort of taking the Party back was possible in a scenario in which the Republicans in the Senate joined with Dems to convict in an impeachment process and/or forced a resignation ala Nixon, but that doesn't appear to be in the offing pre 2020, much less in time for the GOP to regain its moral authority. So, the only way back to respectability, as a viable future-oriented party that is attractive to a majority of Americans, will need to be a string of ignominious losses at the ballot box first. It'll need to be really bad before this crew is cleaned out.

But, even so, it's going to take a really long time to erase this stain from the GOP brand. And the demographics are brutal.

So, that leads me to then worry about an authoritarian left rising, emboldened by the tactics of the Trumpist right.

Much of what has been done to our norms and institutions will be very difficult to correct, and he's got another two years to do more damage.

[wahoomurf]

Well for heaven's sake, no one actually has a copy of the report, old salt.

You don't need TDS to say "hey, I'd like to read the report before I draw any conclusions".

Republicans "investigating" Republicans.

It is really unfair to the sane, responsible republicans to keep using the term republican to describe the Trump supporters. The problem is the Trumpnista call themselves republicans and appear to make up 80-85% of the old GOP. Sane republicans need to pick a new name. I really don't see how folks like MDlaxfan76, Wahoomurf and others will ever reconcile with Orange Duce's supporters and enablers. The Trumpnista have already labeled them RINOs or worse - Democrats So out of respect for these sane, responsible few I propose that Brooklyn re-caption his cartoons to something like "Scumbags investigating His High Scumbaginess".

Thanks.
Sadly, the Trumpnista have taken over the GOP apparatus completely, lock, stock, and barrel.

Apparently that leaves all the Bushes including dad and mom, out of the party. McCain too. If alive, Reagan, Kemp, Ike, none of them would recognize this bunch of weasels, nativists, and racists as "Republicans".

But the takeover has happened. It's done. Locked in.

I'd previously hoped that some sort of taking the Party back was possible in a scenario in which the Republicans in the Senate joined with Dems to convict in an impeachment process and/or forced a resignation ala Nixon, but that doesn't appear to be in the offing pre 2020, much less in time for the GOP to regain its moral authority. So, the only way back to respectability, as a viable future-oriented party that is attractive to a majority of Americans, will need to be a string of ignominious losses at the ballot box first. It'll need to be really bad before this crew is cleaned out.

But, even so, it's going to take a really long time to erase this stain from the GOP brand. And the demographics are brutal.

So, that leads me to then worry about an authoritarian left rising, emboldened by the tactics of the Trumpist right.

Much of what has been done to our norms and institutions will be very difficult to correct, and he's got another two years to do more damage.

I hear ya' MD. In the first few days of his VICTORY TOUR:
(1) The hell with Puerto Rico.(Wasn't that AOC's birthplace?).
(2) Awaken the efforts to obliterate OBAMACARE AKA The ACA.
(3) Ordered the elimination funding for The Special Olympics.(Those damn Kennedys).
(4) Raising the Bankruptcy filing minimum from $4 Million to $10 Million for those poor farmers.

[runrussellrun]

MClax wrote:

Apparently that leaves all the Bushes including dad and mom, out of the party. McCain too. If alive, Reagan, Kemp, Ike, none of them would recognize this bunch of weasels, nativists, and racists as "Republicans".

You need you head checked for memory loss. Or, you see what you want to see. tRump was only channeling Mclame. Amazed at the delusional honor thinking that goes on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0lwusMxiHc

[wahoomurf]

ZOUNDS! Nancy don't show no love to Barr.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/03 ... ubscribers

[MDlaxfan76]

MClax wrote:

Apparently that leaves all the Bushes including dad and mom, out of the party. McCain too. If alive, Reagan, Kemp, Ike, none of them would recognize this bunch of weasels, nativists, and racists as "Republicans".

You need you head checked for memory loss. Or, you see what you want to see. tRump was only channeling Mclame. Amazed at the delusional honor thinking that goes on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0lwusMxiHc

You've shown us this 2010 campaign ad before. But no, McCain rejected the Trumpist band wagon. Not a boot licker.
Not always right on every policy though. Nor is Trump wrong on every policy. But one guy had a lifetime of predominantly honorable behavior in service to his country, the other avoided all responsibility of service to his country, committed tax fraud, and ran his whole life as a scam artist. Really not a fair comparison.

Apparently Barbara Bush is being pretty outspoken about HW and her not voting for Trump in 2016. The whole family thinks he's not worth more than what they scrape off their shoe when walking through a cow pasture.

Reagan, Kemp, Ike and whole slew of other traditional R's would reject this bunch.

[MDlaxfan76]

ZOUNDS! Nancy don't show no love to Barr.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/03 ... ubscribers

Always concerns me when an article title suggests something that isn't accurate, just for click bait.

I quite agree with Pelosi's view about Barr, and his summary, but she hasn't called him a "boot licker".

Time will tell.

[ggait]

Folks are getting out over the skis (at this point) on Barr imo.

Seems beyond naive to me to think that old pro Mueller had absolutely no idea of what was going to happen after his report was turned over. And that he somehow has been hoodwinked by what Barr is doing now. Remember -- Barr and Mueller are very close personal friends who have worked together for decades. Seems much more likely to me that Mueller and Rosenstein and Barr worked out a plan before the report was handed over.

Barr now telling Congress that he'll turn over the report with GJ and nat security redactions. That's the outcome you'd expect Mueller to insist upon. And if that was the plan, then you'd also expect that Mueller wrote and organized his report and reached his conclusions/non-conclusions with that eventual outcome in mind.

Last, you'd expect that MR&B would want their plan to roll out in the middle part of 2019. So as to avoid anything being too close to the 2018 and 2020 elections.

For now, I'm going with Occam's razor.

[a fan]

That's all fine. One exception. I want the Gang of 8 to read the un-redacted report. They've got the clearances. Let them do their jobs.

This NOT going well for guys like Old Salt, who thinks Trump needs to be cleared before he can govern. While I don't agree with this perspective, anything other than Pelosi or some other Dems....and Republican leaders, too... reading the full report will lead to the tin foilers doing what they do best....

[jhu72]

Folks are getting out over the skis (at this point) on Barr imo.

Seems beyond naive to me to think that old pro Mueller had absolutely no idea of what was going to happen after his report was turned over. And that he somehow has been hoodwinked by what Barr is doing now. Remember -- Barr and Mueller are very close personal friends who have worked together for decades. Seems much more likely to me that Mueller and Rosenstein and Barr worked out a plan before the report was handed over.

Barr now telling Congress that he'll turn over the report with GJ and nat security redactions. That's the outcome you'd expect Mueller to insist upon. And if that was the plan, then you'd also expect that Mueller wrote and organized his report and reached his conclusions/non-conclusions with that eventual outcome in mind.

Last, you'd expect that MR&B would want their plan to roll out in the middle part of 2019. So as to avoid anything being too close to the 2018 and 2020 elections.

For now, I'm going with Occam's razor.

I thought I heard that Barr and Mueller are acquaintances, not close friends. The source of the "close friends" story seems to be RedState laundering a Breitbart story. I don't trust Barr based on his statement's followed by observed actions to date, given his history and behavior vis-à-vis presidential power. He needs to earn my respect, at this time he is in a hole. He will be judged by his actions.

He is not going to be able to hide this, he will be forced to testify to congress under oath. He knows he can't hide it and hence all he can do is delay - he is not the president. He has given Orange Duce his "gloat fest" moment. I am highly confident this all ends up the right way, with what Mueller produced in the hands of congress. It is only a question of how long Barr can delay congress getting everything.

[jhu72]

First Opinion Poll of Barr's handling of the Mueller report.

[ggait]

Maybe not best friends, but close friends.

Mueller attended the weddings of Barr's kids. Mrs. Barr and Mrs. Mueller are in the same bible study group. Mueller and Barr go back decades in DOJ. During his Senate confirm hearing, Barr testified that he told Trump in 2017 the following:

"I told [Trump] how well I knew Bob Mueller and that the Barrs and Muellers were good friends and would be good friends when this was all over."

The BS story (largely spread by Trump) was that Mueller and Comey were best buds.

I'm just not seeing (yet) that Barr is going to torpedo Mueller or that Mueller would let Barr do that to him.

[jhu72]

Maybe not best friends, but close friends.

Mueller attended the weddings of Barr's kids. Mrs. Barr and Mrs. Mueller are in the same bible study group. Mueller and Barr go back decades in DOJ. During his Senate confirm hearing, Barr testified that he told Trump in 2017 the following:

"I told [Trump] how well I knew Bob Mueller and that the Barrs and Muellers were good friends and would be good friends when this was all over."

The BS story (largely spread by Trump) was that Mueller and Comey were best buds.

I'm just not seeing (yet) that Barr is going to torpedo Mueller or that Mueller would let Barr do that to him.

I don't think Barr is going to torpedo Mueller either. It has nothing to do with how well they do or don't know each other. Barr is a smart lawyer and knows he couldn't get away with it. There are too many smart lawyers hanging around this. Barr can get away with some degree of spin, misleading by omission etc., he can't get away with out and out lying, grossly misrepresenting facts. He can drag it out, but ultimately he would be cornered.

Just heard House Judiciary has not agreed to give Barr any time beyond their original deadline in April. Apparently they think Barr is playing to delay as well.